Should I complain and a general moan!

[dominobrown]

I went to Hendersyde yesterday eventing with a very unusual trotter X arab. He was a rescue (lived in a shed on an allotment), kept a stallion in the shed and was apparently used to breed with trotting mares to add speed. He was probably broken into harness when he was a yearling.

Anyways I have had him a couple of years, gelded him and broken him to ride. He is a lovely honest horse with a great attitude to life despite his past. He also loves to jump.

As he does like to 'pace' especially when tense I spoke to the judge at the start of the dressage test to explain he may not canter or break into a pace instead of canter and there is nothing wrong with him, its his breeding.
The judge was incredibly rude to me a this point.
Anyways did the test... it was pretty awful not going lie!
Very interested to collect my sheet.... guess what the comments said? .....
Nothing... no comment. I have never known such terrible judging at Be 80 TRAINING level... when we went to Warwick the judge was critical but really helpful in her comments at the same time. I was very (and still am!) at yesterdays judge.

However horse was brilliant in jumping phases... very hilly show jumping ring which is tricky on an unbalanced trotter but he only had 1 down.

Cross country he was amazing despite horrendous weather. The course was brilliant for an 80, really interesting for my non horsey boyfriend to watch as every fence was beautifully dressed and presented and the course designer did a fab job at creating a challenging but really fun course to ride. Due to a green over jump at the drop and the horrendous weather and lack of studs I circled before the b elememt picking up 20 instead of hauling him into it and maybe causing him to slip. With the dressage score he got I was not going to win so best keep him happy and confident.

What I would like to moan about is however the person who complained about him pacing cross country. There were some steep slippy hills so I just allowed him to sort and balance himself and he finds pacing easier than cantering.
The vet checked him at the end of the course due to somebody complaining and was 100% happy with him and said he was 100% sound in walk and trot.
He has also been fully vetted and x rayed when he came to me by a very good vet who confirmed he is 100%. He is regualry checked by a physio who also believes there is nothing wrong with him at all. So before any busy bodies want to put in complaints I would appreciate if they would talk to me direct or maybe educate themselves on the bio-mechanics of a horse and gaited horses before spouting that is lame.
Anyways appart from some certain people I am very pleased with ky horse and excited for his future!

 

[EventingMum]

Well done on what you have achieved with him. Hendersyde's SJ ring is unbelievably steep, I remember one year standing at the bottom and not being able to see the fences along the top side. As you say I always the xc was beautifully presented and imaginatively designed. Some people have nothing better to do though perhaps they didn't realise he was pacing and thought it was lameness. At least the vet was able to set the record straight.

 

[Rowreach]

Well done for taking on a non-conventional horse and having fun with him. The good thing about the eventing circuit is that they are bound to all gossip about him, and then they'll all know he paces for the next time. Disappointing dressage judging though. I hate leaving blank spaces, I was taught to justify marks given.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I think you have grounds for complaint about the dressage judging but as for the vet referral, I think you should be pleased that someone, admittedly probably not very knowledgeable, was concerned enough about a horse they thought was unsound, to say so officially. The vet checked your horse and found that all was well but a different horse might not have been found to be sound.

 

[JennBags]

What was it the judge said to you that was so rude?

When I've written at dressage tests, anyone coming up to the judge before they start, making excuses, is generally frowned upon. I understand your reasons for doing it, but I don't think it's particularly constructive. Also, often when the next competitor enters the arena, the judge is still writing her comments on the previous test and you may have interrupted her train of thought.

As for cross-country, I'd much rather that horses we checked for lameness, don't think of it as a complaint, it was probably noticed by a few fence judges and remarked back to control, and BE have a duty of care to the horse. If your horse has an unusual gait then he may look lame to people who haven't seen it before.

I understand you're upset but I think you might be over-thinking it all and there's no harm done. Well done for getting out there and doing it, and the more you do it, the less tension your boy will have

 

[dominobrown]

Thank you for the replies. I think he getting pretty well known at our local events now and some people are shocked by his improvement... and his ability to jump. When he learns to really push from the canter god knows what he will jump as he can 1.10m from a tranter currently!
I understand the need for the vet check, it was quite humilating in the car park in front of loads of people but also quite satisfying infront of the growing crowd for the vet to state he thought there was nothing wrong with him and that he was sound.

 

[Auslander]

What did the judge say?

 

[dominobrown]

Not much... just shrugged her shoulders, muttered something like "for gods sake" then slammed the car door. Not a lot to say on the sheet either ��

 

[conniegirl]

Sorry but approaching th judge before your test is a big no no! I thought it was disqualification if you did so.
You took a horse who paces into a class where they are expected to trot and canter in a decent outline and well balanced, what exactly were you expecting? If your horse cannot comfortably do the test in trot and canter then it was not ready for the competition.

 

[dominobrown]

I disagree... You are much better to explain beforehand rather than be stopped midway through the test and upset you and the horse further. Most judges are understanding.
Also it's a BE 80 and he does trot no ely I an outline but when tense and upset he does pace... some horse bolt... the horse in before me bronced... it happens.. .. get over it. He has managed to get 65% with a listed judge before and in both events he has done he was not last after dressage as apart from the poor canter at times he is very accurate and obedient.
Just because he is a trotter doesn't meant he should not be allowed to compete... especially at the lowest level and it is that attitude which unhelpful in the sport.
As to what I was expecting.... not an amazing mark. I don't mind getting a 3 or a 4 for the times he breaks behind in the canter and goes into tranter... but some constructive criticism would be nice.
Unfortuanlty in the affilated competition world there are lot of people who believe if it's not a warmblood, thoroughbred etc it shouldn't compete however there where all shapes and sizes there... and that's how it should be.

 

[Rowreach]

Sorry but approaching th judge before your test is a big no no! I thought it was disqualification if you did so.
You took a horse who paces into a class where they are expected to trot and canter in a decent outline and well balanced, what exactly were you expecting? If your horse cannot comfortably do the test in trot and canter then it was not ready for the competition.

By that token, anything which has a pole down sj or a stop xc "isn't ready" ....

 

[Shay]

I'm with JenBags. Approaching the dressage judge before the test was at best impolite and definitely something not to repeat. I'm not at all surprised there were no comments on the sheet. I think you'll have to chalk that one up to experience. However you may well have been observed speaking to the judge when you should not have which might have been the driving factor behind the later concern?

People complain about other competitors all the time - some seem to do it as a hobby. Perhaps speak to the secretary when you collect your tabard. Any complaints as to soundness etc have to come through them anyway. Otherwise I'm afraid it might just be a fact of life.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Sorry, but approaching the judge before the test is a big no no. As said by others, she'd have been busy writing up the comments from the previous test, so no wonder she was short with you. Also as a FJ, I would definitely radio in if a horse looked 'off' over my fence, (I FJ and dressage scribe at BE), and we are encouraged to do so by control.

Well done for training him up, but be aware that he may look a bit odd to those of us unfamiliar with pacers.

 

[milliepops]

What was it the judge said to you that was so rude?

When I've written at dressage tests, anyone coming up to the judge before they start, making excuses, is generally frowned upon. I understand your reasons for doing it, but I don't think it's particularly constructive. Also, often when the next competitor enters the arena, the judge is still writing her comments on the previous test and you may have interrupted her train of thought.

As for cross-country, I'd much rather that horses we checked for lameness, don't think of it as a complaint, it was probably noticed by a few fence judges and remarked back to control, and BE have a duty of care to the horse. If your horse has an unusual gait then he may look lame to people who haven't seen it before.

I understand you're upset but I think you might be over-thinking it all and there's no harm done. Well done for getting out there and doing it, and the more you do it, the less tension your boy will have

^^ this

Stick at it, and hopefully the tension will diminish and he'll be able to show the correct paces. In the meantime, the fact that he's bred to pace is quite irrelevant to the judge who can only score performance against the requirements of the test without taking the horse's back story into account.

 

[dominobrown]

I can see why going to judge beforehand is frowned upon so does anypne have any suggestions on what to do...
I had previously told the seceratary upon paying my start fee.
I was going to get a vets letter I could present in dressage?
Ask the organisers to put me last so after my test, or if I get stopped in a test the judge is not worrying about the times.

I did stand well back and wait for the judge to finsh doing what she was doing so not to interrupt.
Any suggestions? The annoying thing is with any young green horse is the lack of constinceny... he doesnt always pace... sometimes if not tense and goung well, listening etc he wont do it!

 

[milliepops]

I personally don't see any alternative to taking the hit on it if he does pace tbh, if he were mine and I wanted to see how to manage him so that he didn't pace in the dressage phase I'd be entering lots of local dressage shows HC and chipping away at it until he was reliably able to show the correct paces.

The judge can only mark what they see on the day, there's nothing in the rules to say that there is any accomodation for horses bred to pace so it's going to be expensive if he does it until then (assume it affected both the marks for the movements and the collectives)- unfortunate for you, but that's the disadvantage of riding non-standard horses in competition... i say this as a person with 2 non-standard horses

 

[el_Snowflakes]

To be honest, although you meant well I think it's innaproprate to approach the judge prior to your test. The judge has to judge everyone applying the same rules to everyone regardless of breed, type, age etc.

However i do find it a bit bizarre that someone complained about pacing in the XC?! Perhaps they were concerned that your horse wasn't sound. Either way, I wouldn't let it put you up or down

 

[dominobrown]

We did a lot of unaffilated over winter... we were stopped a lot to start with as often he wouldn't do a true trot... and having someone stop you and tell you there is something wrong with your horse is not nice! It's also really hard to get back into the test. Also problem with some uaffilated judges are they are a bit clueless. I had one tell me he was stiff but not in walk and couldn't decide what leg. When I explained it was his breed she had never heard of a pacer. However some judges have been really really helpful... especially the one who judges the dressage at the Iclandic national show stopped me at the end of the test and gave me lots of hints. I had a few lessons with him and it is thanks to him that the horse can now do a true trot.
He did go to an unaffilated outing before the event and didn't pace either... it was small indoor venue, with no prize giving going on in the background or weather and he cantered fine.

I think I may get a vets letter just in case. He has been seen by numerous vets now (did a bit of endurance and those lot love him!) And everyone says he is fine.
He can scratch marks back in the walk as his walk is massive and really swinging with loads of overtrack.

 

[Orangehorse]

I agree with the others. If you are a "non standard" horse then there is nothing to stop you competiting, and as you have found his jumping is really good, but you are being compared to all the others. Like eventing on a Morgan, where they have a high head carriage and can have "up down" knee action in trot, and as someone says "try telling a Morgan to stretch long and low in the free walk. However, they make up for it in the jumping phases.

Some people seem hardly to realise that there are different breeds other than TB and warmblood, so anything more unusual is going to look strange to them - I daresay some have never seen a pacer.

 

[dominobrown]

I agree with the others. If you are a "non standard" horse then there is nothing to stop you competiting, and as you have found his jumping is really good, but you are being compared to all the others. Like eventing on a Morgan, where they have a high head carriage and can have "up down" knee action in trot, and as someone says "try telling a Morgan to stretch long and low in the free walk. However, they make up for it in the jumping phases.

Some people seem hardly to realise that there are different breeds other than TB and warmblood, so anything more unusual is going to look strange to them - I daresay some have never seen a pacer.

As the other thread states... every horse has their strengths.... and weaknesses. Canter is a weakness for us!
You dont see many Morgans about... which is a shame really as they are stunning horses.
Jumping wise he is so honest and enjoys it so much its a shame not to let him have a go!

 

[ester]

I guess the judge would only stop you if they thought that he was unlevel? I wouldn't worry about them worrying about keeping to time if they do choose to stop you. Have you been stopped a lot previously?

 

[milliepops]

He can scratch marks back in the walk as his walk is massive and really swinging with loads of overtrack.

well that's great, at least you can play to his strengths. A friend of a friend has a horse that is bred to pace and he has a fabulous canter but is prone to a lateral walk, they're all so different.

It's a really interesting question and I wonder what the BD training would be on it, any trainees or judges on here? if horse paces instead of trotting how would that be scored? as the definition of the pace for any movement in trot is that it must be a diagonal movement, I've just looked in the FEI guidelines for judging and it says that if the trot is nearly unrecognisable then that is a 1 out of 10 - fairly depressing if you have a horse that can slip into pacing but must be nigh-on impossible as a judge if you have to award 1s for something the rider is clearly trying to demonstrate?

Sorry OP, it's an odd tangent but could explain the lack of comments a bit?

 

[dominobrown]

well that's great, at least you can play to his strengths. A friend of a friend has a horse that is bred to pace and he has a fabulous canter but is prone to a lateral walk, they're all so different.

It's a really interesting question and I wonder what the BD training would be on it, any trainees or judges on here? if horse paces instead of trotting how would that be scored? as the definition of the pace for any movement in trot is that it must be a diagonal movement, I've just looked in the FEI guidelines for judging and it says that if the trot is nearly unrecognisable then that is a 1 out of 10 - fairly depressing if you have a horse that can slip into pacing but must be nigh-on impossible as a judge if you have to award 1s for something the rider is clearly trying to demonstrate?

Sorry OP, it's an odd tangent but could explain the lack of comments a bit?

I don't know, interesting though! Pacing is a weird one... tecunically is not truely cantering however, he is obedient, round supple etc and attempting the movement.

Ester- yes he was stopped a lot but not when there has been listed judges... one listed judge comment was that the unlevel strides come from him switching from a diagonal trot to lateral one, skipping behind which happened when tense. When I corrected him, he switches back to diagonal. She was a very good judge to see this as to see it normal you have to analyse videos of him slowly!
In the canter he does not look 'natural' unless you are jumping. My farrier thinks he has worn some sort of device to stop him cantering as he will try it then tense and go back to tranter. When he is jumping he canters normally most of the time as he is not thinking about it. He canters truely with his front legs and tends to canter with his hind legs out behind and then becomes out of time and it turns into a pace. When schooling i normally ask him to come back to trot and strike off immeadielty and he canters again andndo lots of exercise to get him to use his legs more. When doing polework he canters normally through the poles quite easily!
For the 6 month to a year he never cantered at all. In the field he would pace but the first time he cantered he was harassing my other horse by copying him and when my other horse cantered so did he!

 

[SusieT]

I have to say - I wouldn't have said anything to the judge - let them judge him on him - pacing is a fault not a lameness so they will simply mark him down for that. It's likely they marked you down as a complainer so may not have dared write anything on the sheet!
As for someone complaining he looked lame - he must have looked pretty bad imo for someone to complain, pacing is not a lameness to me. I wouldn't see what you could complain about? The vet checked him as they should and ok'd him - all well?

I think if you are going to compete a horse who paces you need to grow a tougher skin and not treat it as a 'speciality' - just ignore it and crack on accepting you won't get good dressage marks!

 

[Irishdan]

I think thats fantastic you are out eventing him. Had a friend at Pony Club back in the early 80s who competed with a Standard bred. Took her a while but the mare did become v good at dressage so stick with it. My partner has two gaited Rocky Mountains who I would love to take to Foreign Breed classes but he is too worried people will think there is something wrong with them due to their gaits, same goes for doing long distance rides. You are definitely at more of a disadvantage but that màkes your journey even more special. Do you have any photos ��

 

[dominobrown]

Thanks Susie and Irishdan.
Think you are right Susie.. . Just need to get on with it. If the course vet says he is fine and sound then there is nothing else I can do.
I don't know how to put pictures up on here anymore. Looks wise he does look like a very flashy continental warmblood until he moves!

 

[Goldenstar]

I am pretty sure that judges are supposed to make some sort of comment either the judge was struggling to find something mildly encouraging to say or you seriously annoyed them by talking to them before the test which really is a no no .

I am confused as to why and who you would complain about on the xc thing would you rather organisers ignored people raising concerns you must admit a horse paces xc is an unusual thing to see .
Surely is better to have horses checked out if concerns are raised .
Enjoy your horse as he is and I hope the canter is soon established .

 

[dominobrown]

I never complained to anyone about the cross country? I understand completely why there are vets etc and think it's a good idea.

 

[ycbm]

You took a horse who paces into a class where they are expected to trot and canter in a decent outline and well balanced, what exactly were you expecting? If your horse cannot comfortably do the test in trot and canter then it was not ready for the competition.

The horse was not ready to provide competition to the other entrants, true. But it didn't harm itself pacing in a dressage test and jumps like a stag and the rider and the horse both have a lot of fun.

It's BE80, please let's not 'professionalise' an event which is lower than most Riding Club events used to start at, back in the days when there were any!

It's about getting out there and doing it, not whether you can win or not.

 

[Batgirl]

From a judges point of view talking to me before a test is a bad idea - it serves no purpose other than make me think you want me to be generous, interrupt my thought process (even if I have finished writing the comments I am often reflecting and preparing for the next test) and if you are hovering waiting to talk to me it is very distracting.

A key part of dressage is rhythm - of the THREE paces within dressage. If your horse is pacing then you will get poor marks, you have said yourself the rhythm goes to pot when he is switch from one to the other and frankly if a horse is doing that then any normal person would question its soundness - it is similar to disuniting in canter. Having had vets say its sound doesn't make it look sound to others when he is switching between pacing and canter or trot. I have ridden a pacer and I can feel your pain but you need to accept that it is an issue that you will have to deal with.

I would be grateful that people care enough to raise a concern about soundness of horses and accept that is is going to happen.