Should I complain and a general moan!

ycbm said:
The horse was not ready to provide competition to the other entrants, true. But it didn't harm itself pacing in a dressage test and jumps like a stag and the rider and the horse both have a lot of fun.

It's BE80, please let's not 'professionalise' an event which is lower than most Riding Club events used to start at, back in the days when there were any!

It's about getting out there and doing it, not whether you can win or not.
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I wouldn't take a baby that can't canter properly and throw it in an open class, that's what walk trot tests and classes are for, Same goes imo for this situation.

IMO if you feel the need to prewarn the judge about your horse you are not ready for the competition.

It's one of the things you have to live with when you take on a pacer and want to do disciplines that require trot and canter.

the judge was probably annoyed at being interrupted before the test and then worried that they had a complainer on thier hands, so opted for the if you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all approach. Having seen judges harangued and verbally abused for making comments I can see why they opted for that route.
 
conniegirl said:
I wouldn't take a baby that can't canter properly and throw it in an open class, that's what walk trot tests and classes are for, Same goes imo for this situation.
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The horse and rider love jumping. There are no walk and trot tests in eventing. Unaffiliated XC and hunter trials are few and far between since BE introduced the lower heights, so BE80 is the only way this horse and rider can get that fix.

She's paying her substantial, entry fee.. She's not expecting to win. She just wants some fun.

Lighten up, it's two foot eight, not the Olympics :D

BE80 and 90 have absolutely ruined a lot of people's fun. Twenty years ago I could do eight or ten low key two foot nine cross country competitions every summer without travelling more than an hour. None of those competitions now exist.
 
That would make sense if I was rude and complained to the judge however as I said... "I am really sorry if he paces instead of canters but he is a pacer so there is nothing wrong with him and just mark accordingly. Sorry".
Not sure why I am a complainer as most judges would give critique such as if he was more supple, balanced etc, needs to work on this or that etc. Every judge I have ever ridden under in any event has always had a comment. Doesn't matter if tjey like you or your horse... They are there to make comment even if it is that they really don't like your horse and you should give up and shoot it as some people probably think.
I believe in being polite at all times and helpful where possible however I suppose some people don't feel the need!
I would like to go under that judge again with my other horse though.

Ycbm- there used to be loads organised by the hunts and pony clubs but have nearly all gone. Your lucky if there are 2 a year around here and the odd one there is often are bit dodgy. Like a rather large stone wall with dodgy approach and groudline. At least at BE you get proper courses, paramedics and vets on hand. If he actually was lame the vet seemed very good which puts your mind at rest!
 
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I think what you said comes across as rather bossy. If you want to say something you should tell the steward that you've been stopped a couple of times because sometimes your horse paces and in the short amount of time the judge has, they may stop the test thinking he is lame. Frankly pacing does look like a lameness if you aren't used to looking at it. I saw one horse doing it show jumping and it took me several minutes to realise what it was actually doing and I've ridden a pacer before. It looks a lot worse than it feels!

Personally I would stick to unaffiliated with the horse until it's more settled into the work as it's so expensive to do BE as a training exercise - you could do a lot of other competitions and xc hires for the same money and perhaps have a nicer time.
 
I dont think it came over bossy at all. Also as above there are barely any unaffilated events and I do have a nice time and I pleased the horse. He has done all the local cross country courses now too.
 
FfionWinnie said:
Clearly the judge didn't agree but it seems you know best so crack on!
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Agree! Some people just won't listen.

Btw I know of 6 unafilliated huntertrials/ode/xc competitions within 50 miles of me within the next 5 weeks. They are out there you just have to look for them
 
If your horse moves in a way that makes dressage judges or any other judge or official believe that your horse is lame then perhaps as others have said until you can correct the way of going to that required for the dressage phase you may have to take a hit at some competitions.

In the same way people who have horses that spook or buck or rear when tense have to continue going and out and practising until the horse becomes more relaxed I guess you just have to do the same.

Could you try arena eventing which does not involve dressage?

It is absolutely right that any official who has concerns about the soundness of a horse competing should raise this. If you have a horse that moves in a way that may mean that people think the horse is unsound then unfortunately that may be a price you have to pay for owning an non standard horse and competing in classes that the horse has not been bred or originally trained for. At some point if you continue with correct training the horse will no longer be tense and pace so it should not be something you have to put up with long term.
 
Unsure on this as I don't event but if you've been stopped mid-test before and that's what you're trying to avoid could you maybe put a note with your entry asking for the judge to be made aware that he may pace when tense and a request for them not to pull you up if he does. Obviously if he paces rather than showing trot or canter then you'll still lose the marks but if you're trying to avoid being stopped mid-test then may be an option to look at. Re being checked after the XC if someone voices a concern they do have to look into it.
 
I once wrote at PC dressage were the judge rubbished a horse that did a poor test. After I had listened to her comments, I said 'I think it probably jumps well'. As I also did some XC jump judging later, I saw it jump and then later on went and checked it SJ score, it was clear in both phases. Well I would rather have something that jumps well at BE than does a good dressage score, if it does not do the first well you could get a nasty splat.
Lots of natives/cobs do dressage and never really get rewarded for the work, when really more training has gone into producing them. The better judges usually do affiliated events so I can understand why you would wish to continue competing BE. Sooner or later just about every official locally will have seen him and got used to his action, or he will established his trot/canter, in the meantime just pat yourself on the back and think how well you are doing.
I hate the snobbery of horses, that you have to have the 'right' horse for the right job, when really most of us have to enjoy and work with what we have. Just continue to enjoy what you have, others that have paid of lot of money will not be having half the fun, so that's something to feel good about.
 
I did that boulty and put in the notes for the commentator however I know people are busy at these things and have hundreds of runners so probably don't check.
I suppose I don't mind a vet check at the end of cross country ... He trots up sound as he is, has no lumps or bumps so I have nothing to hide. I think as more people become familiar with different types eventing, more now as there are lower levels, they will probably see more paced and standardbreds etc.
I am not a particular fan of a standardbred however they are generally lovely natured horses that rarely have a future out of racing which is quite sad really. Anyways... having a horse like this I believe has improved my riding and understand of biomechanics of horses so hey ho!
 
Standardbreds are pretty common down here (New Zealand) especially at the lower levels. Blyth Tait's Delta had Standardbred blood and the characteristic four-beat canter. My pony mare is probably part Standy and has an impressive four-beat canter when she wants to. They do get marked down for pacing or lacking a true canter in the dressage.
 
i've a trotter and i've kept her at walk trot tests so far as I didn't see the point of entering tests she wasn't able for at the time. When we attempt a 'normal' test next month id imagine we will only get a short canter strike off. But im happy that she's at least competent to try the move and thats why i entered the walk/trot tests, I just think its fairer on her and we have more time betwen moves to get her rhytmn. Having done a lot of writing for judges there is nothing more annoying than someone coming up giving you the horses history. The judge just marks the movement in front of her, she doesn't need the horses life history. I just go in and expect dressage to be our weakest phase until she improves. Mine gets marked down on her way of going, mainly on rhythm. It's getting better, but we will have a lot of dodgy dressage scores for the foreseeable future so I just kind of write it off! You still have two strong phases in the eventing though, so don't worry! Well done on retraining yours, they are super horses!
 
Thanks. I think everyone is right as to regards just to get on with it and if I get stopped by the dressage judge I will have a vets letter in my pocket. Also of he decides he is going to canter normally then the judge won't be looking for it so actually may get better marks.

As for going to events.. . I never take him by himself, I am going anyways with my bog standard ISH to do a bigger class like the 100 so he might as well come for the ride. This weekend I had to drop off a lovely Connie pony I had sold to its new home on the way.
 
Oh that's a tricky situation....a horse switching between pacing and true would look like it was lame unless you were forewarned what you were looking at. And there is no real way to forewarn the judge with seeming rude or like you're making excuses before you even start.

Personally I think that o would just take the hit and try to become really good at restarting a test part way through by practicing at home - I mean the chances are that if you've been stopped for pacing then you're not heading for a great mark anyway so just get it out of the way and onto the jumping.
 
conniegirl said:
Agree! Some people just won't listen.

Btw I know of 6 unafilliated huntertrials/ode/xc competitions within 50 miles of me within the next 5 weeks. They are out there you just have to look for them
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The OP has listened to the advice that she should not talk to the judge before she starts her test.


You seem to want her to take this horse to a different venue from her BE100 horse just so that she doesn't offend some people who think she should be taking a BE80 more seriously.

What is your hang up about people who just want to have a bit of fun at a two foot eight ODE? We aren't all out to win when we go to these events, she's not breaking any rules, being unfair to any other competitors, and her money is the same as anyone else's.

Well done for getting out there, OP, it's the money from 'ordinary' horses like yours that keeps BE afloat. Have fun!
 
ycbm said:
What is your hang up about people who just want to have a bit of fun at a two foot eight ODE? We aren't all out to win when we go to these events, she's not breaking any rules, being unfair to any other competitors, and her money is the same as anyone else's.
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I have no problem with her taking the horse out if that is what she wants to do, what I do have a problem with is threads like this moaning about being pulled for a vet check when she knew all along it might have been an issue and moaning about the dressage judge again when she knew it would be an issue.
by all means go out and do it but for gods sake dont moan about it when the expected happens. If you dont want to be vet checked dont take the horse out untill it doesnt pace, if you dont want a judge to potentially stop you mid test then dont take the horse out untill it doesnt pace. Dont make excuses, dont piss off the judge and then moan about it later.
 
agree with Conniegirl... making excuses all the time is not on. I don't mind getting a bad mark or even getting pulled mid test for pacing although it's annoying though my original moan was the lack of feedback from the judge. Any feedback is appreciated as only by getting the opinion of others and getting critism can I improve. Its all very well trundling around at home thinking you are great but the whole point of dressage (in my mind) is to go out and improve your scored, listen to the feedback of the judge and try and improve on that.
I also expressed frustration with people in general who can't recognise a pacer.... however there is a gap in knowledge for most people... Obviously... As you don't see many out and about in this country and moist people will have never come across one.
As for vet checks... good, you have one at the end of every endurance ride and after every cross country at a 3 day so it's not unusual... and as I said the horse is sound so I have nothing to hide.
 
Shay said:
I'm with JenBags. Approaching the dressage judge before the test was at best impolite and definitely something not to repeat. I'm not at all surprised there were no comments on the sheet. I think you'll have to chalk that one up to experience. However you may well have been observed speaking to the judge when you should not have which might have been the driving factor behind the later concern?
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It is not inappropriate to speak to the dressage judge before an event. Though it does depend what you say. And you should not say anything that might influence the judging. For example it would be acceptable to say in a prelim in straight dressage, I'm not going to canter on the left rein today, please don't ring the bell, as I am just here to give the horse an outing and left canter isn't organised yet. Or to say my horse has got terribly upset in the warm up and is a baby, so I am just going to trot the canter movements, and treat it as a schooling outing, please don't call out an error of course.

I have had an occasion (affiliated medium test) where my horse lost plot in canter. I already knew the rider after me had withdrawn. After my test I went up to judge and asked if I could school in the test arena for five minutes to work the resistance through, until next horse appeared on the walkway. She said fine.
 
Blimey - over here you always go and introduce yourself to the judge before a dressage test; you also go and introduce yourself to the jury panel when SJing too.
 
honetpot said:
I once wrote at PC dressage were the judge rubbished a horse that did a poor test. After I had listened to her comments, I said 'I think it probably jumps well'. As I also did some XC jump judging later, I saw it jump and then later on went and checked it SJ score, it was clear in both phases. Well I would rather have something that jumps well at BE than does a good dressage score, if it does not do the first well you could get a nasty splat..
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That sounds like my horse :) Rubbish dressage because he would boil over, once had 35% but a double clear meant he came home with a rosette in a class of over 40. If you want to compete at XC nowadays it seems you have to do eventing. As previously said any pure hunter trials are very few and far between :(
 
milliepops said:
well that's great, at least you can play to his strengths. A friend of a friend has a horse that is bred to pace and he has a fabulous canter but is prone to a lateral walk, they're all so different.

It's a really interesting question and I wonder what the BD training would be on it, any trainees or judges on here? if horse paces instead of trotting how would that be scored? as the definition of the pace for any movement in trot is that it must be a diagonal movement, I've just looked in the FEI guidelines for judging and it says that if the trot is nearly unrecognisable then that is a 1 out of 10 - fairly depressing if you have a horse that can slip into pacing but must be nigh-on impossible as a judge if you have to award 1s for something the rider is clearly trying to demonstrate?

Sorry OP, it's an odd tangent but could explain the lack of comments a bit?
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I’ve done a fair bit of BD writing and just started training to be a BD judge.

I think the mark would a be influenced by how much of the movement in trot was irregular. So if covered 20 metres in the movement and only a few irregular steps, would be higher than if the majority of the movement was irregular and not trot when would be 4 or less.

I also think BE 80 / Prelim tend to be fairly forgiving judging.

I also think relatively few judges IME stop horses for being lame, if it is at all grey, most write unlevel steps shown on the moment / in collectives. Different if a horse is hopping lame. I always remember seeing a very unlevel advanced medium horse in test, and wondering why judge didn't stop it. Came into next class and looked fine. Think was horse and rider tension.

Most judges IME mark same way for e.g. BTV – a few moments has little impact on mark. BTV for most of movement and most knock of a mark or two. Irregularity of pace would be a more severe error in my understanding.
 
IME of horses appearing 'off' or uncontrollable in the dressage phase of BE, the dressage judge will send a message to the chief dressage steward, who will in turn forwarn the SJ stewards, who will keep a very close eye on it in the SJ. Only if it appears ok in the SJ wil it be allowed to start x country.

Quite often it's the rider's nerves and tension which cause the unlevel steps, so once out of the white boards, the horse becomes sound again ;). Quote from official reporting back to dressage judge who I was scribing for 'Once she'd stopped hanging onto its front end and it could move, it was fine.'

I'm glad we're all agreed that it is correct to report an apparently lame horse. IME organisers and judges go out of their way to give competitors every chance at low level BE.
 
the whole point of dressage (in my mind) is to go out and improve your scored, listen to the feedback of the judge and try and improve on that. [/quote]

The OPs complaint was that the judge gave no feedback. (She was wrong to complain about being reported for a potential lame horse, though).

For many eventers at low levels, like I was, the object of the dressage was to not get eliminated so that you could get your jumping fix :D
 
I just wanted to add to this, about 2 years ago ish there was a letter that went out to judges about the used of the wording, if the paces are uneven, irregular, unlevel, or whatever you want to call them (not clear lameness but uneven steps) and the judges feel that they need to comment on it more than 4 times they are to pull the rider up. The rider has the choice to continue but at the risk of heavily penalised scores as the rhythm (1st scale of training) is not being met.
If the horse is pacing and not in a regular rhythm this may be being applied to you? I don't have the letter any more but I remember it very clearly as I had an issue with irregularity that was raised with BD.
 
I would never speak up to the judge before the test. It just starts you off on a bad foot. My horse is a non-standard dressage horse. I could easily say "don't worry if he doesn't work properly over his back, he's built for driving" but that's not really the point. I'd rather the judge had a blank slate and judged what was in front of them. Plus it's just bad form.

Having said that, a comment-less dressage sheet is so unhelpful. I've had a couple of them myself, and it is so frustrating. How are you supposed to learn if the judge doesn't tell you where you can improve? On the other hand, if at the start of the test you effectively tell the judge what he/she is or isn't allowed to comment upon, it does make it rather more difficult.
 
wingedhorse said:
It is not inappropriate to speak to the dressage judge before an event. Though it does depend what you say. And you should not say anything that might influence the judging. For example it would be acceptable to say in a prelim in straight dressage, I'm not going to canter on the left rein today, please don't ring the bell, as I am just here to give the horse an outing and left canter isn't organised yet. Or to say my horse has got terribly upset in the warm up and is a baby, so I am just going to trot the canter movements, and treat it as a schooling outing, please don't call out an error of course.

I have had an occasion (affiliated medium test) where my horse lost plot in canter. I already knew the rider after me had withdrawn. After my test I went up to judge and asked if I could school in the test arena for five minutes to work the resistance through, until next horse appeared on the walkway. She said fine.
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Agree with this- I've said exactly this before tests, once as rider and once as reader, and the judges have been incredibly supportive. You are effectively ruling yourself out, though, rather than making excuses!

From the wording used this time, though, I can see why a judge might have interpreted it differently to how it was meant.
 
Tiddlypom said:
Quite often it's the rider's nerves and tension which cause the unlevel steps, so once out of the white boards, the horse becomes sound again ;). Quote from official reporting back to dressage judge who I was scribing for 'Once she'd stopped hanging onto its front end and it could move, it was fine.'
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Hah, quite. We ventured out to our first ODE last weekend and got a decent score (32) despite a rather tense test. Then on the walk back to the lorry he did the most fabulous loose active free walk on a long rein. Pah.
 
You might just need to rise above it. In the horse world, often things which are a little unusual are really not well accepted. I used to sj a pacer. Imagine that !! Crikey did her legs get in a muddle sometimes. But we left the poles up and actually did rather well. In fact on one occasion, after we had jumped our round, someone offered to buy her. They were obviously able to see round her pacing and could see that she was a pretty decent jumper. I was quite young, and felt so frustrated (sometime embarrassed) that this horse would rarely canter nicely round like the others, but we happily jumped 2ft 6 classes and were often in the ribbons. We did sj and xc and had a great time with her, so i say accept your horses shorcomings, and enjoy what she has to offer (but accept you'll get some negativity sometimes)
 
the judge spoke to me once as i went in, i forgot to take the boots off!


well done for getting out with him, we have rescue cob cross trotter here, and is he gorgeous!, he`s only 2 years but very lively and really jumps out at you with that look at me i`m special face!

he seems to canter normally and i`ve never seen him pace or break.

i think a judge should have sympathy for people who have good intentions, i think to point out the horse paces is sensible, and lack of experience or knowledge is no excuse for making a vet check on a sound horse that paces.

people take horses out for training purposes and should be encouraged and helped.
 
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