Should I get legal help after horse purchase?

[Kat]

If you are so experienced why have you posted this in new riders and owners?

 

[silkec]

Because I am not an experienced forum user Simples!

 

[silkec]

This is for all those who feel strongly about judging others without knowing all facts, and I hope to make this VERY CLEAR,
this is not about getting rid of an unwanted horse,
this is not about trying to blame someone for my own shortcomings,
this is get to the bottom of the matter which according to independent veterinary professionals is not to be found in the recent past, and

I don't mind your attacks but be assured that I am not (...), and that I not that blonde (mirror says, I am ). I am honestly trying to find angles to look at the matter, and I have exhausted all the alleys you have thrown at me so far, and

thanks to all of you who are really trying to help me finding new angles in the matter!

 

[tweed]

It is an unfortunate situation; not one any horse owner wishes to be in (though sadly many of us do have similar situations occur). Surely to recoup any money here, you would need to be able to prove that a) there was in fact an injury prior to purchase, b) the previous owners knew about it, and c) that it is what is causing the issues now (i.e. a provable connection).

Even if you find out for certain that she had a foal, that is not enough to prove that it injured her and is causing problems now. Most matings (if she was - could have been AI) and pregnancies do not result in injuries. "Could have" and "might have" from your vet and physio is not enough. It's easy to speculate - difficult to prove.

Really if you desperately want to pursue this then you should talk to an equine lawyer, get a feel for the (substantial) costs involved and the likelihood of success. Chances are it will be cheaper and less stressful to find an alternative to involving the prior owners in a case.

Have you contacted the people you bought her from?

 

[WindyStacks]

I'm afraid I'm with those who say "this is horses" and after 6 months you don't stand a chance. It also makes me very wary of selling in this claim culture!

I've just had my 7th (!) vet visit for a horse I've owned 3 weeks. Should I sue the old owners for selling me an asshat who doesn't get out of the way when kicked?

The vet and I were joking about new horse injuries and he told me of someone who spent £££ and the lorry turned on the drive home.

Caveat emptor. That's life. Buy a bicycle.

 

[silkec]

It is an unfortunate situation; not one any horse owner wishes to be in (though sadly many of us do have similar situations occur). Surely to recoup any money here, you would need to be able to prove that a) there was in fact an injury prior to purchase, b) the previous owners knew about it, and c) that it is what is causing the issues now (i.e. a provable connection).

Even if you find out for certain that she had a foal, that is not enough to prove that it injured her and is causing problems now. Most matings (if she was - could have been AI) and pregnancies do not result in injuries. "Could have" and "might have" from your vet and physio is not enough. It's easy to speculate - difficult to prove.

Really if you desperately want to pursue this then you should talk to an equine lawyer, get a feel for the (substantial) costs involved and the likelihood of success. Chances are it will be cheaper and less stressful to find an alternative to involving the prior owners in a case.

Have you contacted the people you bought her from?

I did! And they are keeping now very silent after offering me at first to have my vet speaking to their vet, and letting them have a look into the medical history. Even though, they would be doing that on a goodwill-basis, this obviously doesn't help but makes everyone suddenly suspicious.

 

[dibbin]

Did you specifically ask about her veterinary history when you bought her?

 

[silkec]

I'm afraid I'm with those who say "this is horses" and after 6 months you don't stand a chance. It also makes me very wary of selling in this claim culture!

I've just had my 7th (!) vet visit for a horse I've owned 3 weeks. Should I sue the old owners for selling me an asshat who doesn't get out of the way when kicked?

The vet and I were joking about new horse injuries and he told me of someone who spent £££ and the lorry turned on the drive home.

Caveat emptor. That's life. Buy a bicycle.

I hate bicycles, they don't smell and they don't greet you in the morning

My vet also starts his frequent visits with some dark humorous comments, love him!

I am sorry to hear about your problem, I hop your horse won't need an 8th one (I am on number 12 right now)!

 

[silkec]

Did you specifically ask about her veterinary history when you bought her?

Yes, I did and so did the vet during thee vetting. Nothing of note, according to the seller.

 

[cptrayes]

I hope your horse won't need an 8th one (I am on number 12 right now)!

Twelve vet visits to one horse for a sacroiliac strain? I'm intrigued, could you explain what he's been doing?

Can you also tell us what you want the future of this horse to be, and how that would be helped by suing the previous owners?

Is the vet who now says that she has been pregnant but won't commit that to writing the same as the one who did the vetting?

And if not, what did the one who did the vetting say?

I'm asking these questions so that you do not accuse me again of attacking you without knowing all the facts . If you have more facts, please let us know them and then maybe we can help you better.



PS I have owned a gelding who did a sacroiliac injury by slipping on the road one day and sitting down. It's a common cause of sacroiliac strain, and a common accident in horses in the field who stop the front end suddenly.

 

[WindyStacks]

I agree, bicycles are crap! ;-)

I'm really sorry you are having these problems - my first horse was a bit of a lemon. But a super horse nonetheless.

I'm glad my vet has a wicked soh, just as well given im spending more quality time with him than my husband!

 

[Dry Rot]

It is an unfortunate situation; not one any horse owner wishes to be in (though sadly many of us do have similar situations occur). Surely to recoup any money here, you would need to be able to prove that a) there was in fact an injury prior to purchase, b) the previous owners knew about it, and c) that it is what is causing the issues now (i.e. a provable connection).

Even if you find out for certain that she had a foal, that is not enough to prove that it injured her and is causing problems now. Most matings (if she was - could have been AI) and pregnancies do not result in injuries. "Could have" and "might have" from your vet and physio is not enough. It's easy to speculate - difficult to prove.

Really if you desperately want to pursue this then you should talk to an equine lawyer, get a feel for the (substantial) costs involved and the likelihood of success. Chances are it will be cheaper and less stressful to find an alternative to involving the prior owners in a case.

Have you contacted the people you bought her from?

Are you sure about (b)? Just being pedantic on a legal point and not entering into the discussion at all! If there was an inherent fault (which admittedly might be difficult to prove), wouldn't the seller be liable whether he/she knew about it or not?

Yes, a shame for the poor horse. When I've bought livestock, I've tended to accept what I've got. And when I've sold, no one has ever come back and offered me more money because they've got a bargain!

 

[silkec]

Twelve vet visits to one horse for a sacroiliac strain? I'm intrigued, could you explain what he's been doing?

Can you also tell us what you want the future of this horse to be, and how that would be helped by suing the previous owners?

Is the vet who now says that she has been pregnant but won't commit that too writing the same or a different one from the one who did the vetting?

And if not, what did the one who did the vetting say?

I'm asking these questions so that you do not accuse me again of attacking you without knowing all the facts . If you have more facts, please let us know them and then maybe we can help you better.

It is intriguing... the first three visits happened while I was in hospital. One of my vets is now working mostly as a physio, she came right away and pinpointed the type of sacroiliac pain she see a lot in mares who have been covered by a stallion. Then came the other vet with visits, x-rays of her back, internal examinations and nerve blocks on various days. Since both vets are working together, the one followed up on what the the other found (or didn't find). And they are still in the dark, hence they are suggesting a bone scan.

My mare's future is to get to the bottom of things, and that seems to involve the previous owner to a certain degree, who has become very silent. Should she be not ridable for what ever reason but fit enough to breed, then I might try have a foal since she has excellent bloodlines. When I make the decision to buy a horse, I intend to look after it for life, and I will not let her down!

Vets are funny with giving you a 100% answer, especially a written one, and it was indeed a different vet at the vetting.

Thanks

 

[silkec]

Are you sure about (b)? Just being pedantic on a legal point and not entering into the discussion at all! If there was an inherent fault (which admittedly might be difficult to prove), wouldn't the seller be liable whether he/she knew about it or not?

Yes, a shame for the poor horse. When I've bought livestock, I've tended to accept what I've got. And when I've sold, no one has ever come back and offered me more money because they've got a bargain!

I like that question, I was hoping for some input and opinions like that!
Does anyone know more about the legal side in cases like that?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Being silent doesn't automatically indicate the former owner's guilt. Maybe they got legal advice (I would if the new owner was threatening to sue) and were told to not communicate with you?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I like that question, I was hoping for some input and opinions like that!
Does anyone know more about the legal side in cases like that?

This puts me off ever selling a horse.

Jeez.

 

[webble]

Are you sure about (b)? Just being pedantic on a legal point and not entering into the discussion at all! If there was an inherent fault (which admittedly might be difficult to prove), wouldn't the seller be liable whether he/she knew about it or not?

Yes, a shame for the poor horse. When I've bought livestock, I've tended to accept what I've got. And when I've sold, no one has ever come back and offered me more money because they've got a bargain!

If it was a private sale then I'm pretty sure it's buyer beware. If it was a dealer there might be some comeback (generally I mean not specifically this case)

 

[silkec]

This puts me off ever selling a horse.

Jeez.

If you are an honest breeder with an interest in the horses you have bred, then this shouldn't be an issue for you!
You would work with the new owner on finding the best outcome for the horse!

 

[tweed]

Are you sure about (b)? Just being pedantic on a legal point and not entering into the discussion at all! If there was an inherent fault (which admittedly might be difficult to prove), wouldn't the seller be liable whether he/she knew about it or not?

Not at all; I am not a lawyer, and certainly no expert on your laws over there. This Horse & Hound article does say that "If the horse has a problem, you must be able to prove the seller knew, or ought to have known, about it in order for you to get a refund".

 

[silkec]

If it was a private sale then I'm pretty sure it's buyer beware. If it was a dealer there might be some comeback (generally I mean not specifically this case)

In my case it was a breeder/dealer

 

[cptrayes]

If you are an honest breeder with an interest in the horses you have bred, then this shouldn't be an issue for you!
You would work with the new owner on finding the best outcome for the horse!

If you are an honest owner, you wouldn't break a horse down and then try to send I it back, but some people do just that. And this seller has no idea whether you are one of those people or not. If you have taken the same tone with the sellers as you have on some of your posts on here, then I am not surprised that they are backing away from you after initially offering to help your vet. I feel very, very sorry for you having this problem, and I have no idea whether you have been shafted by the sellers or not, but I suspect there isn't a darned thing you can do about it now if you have

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Are you sure about (b)? Just being pedantic on a legal point and not entering into the discussion at all! If there was an inherent fault (which admittedly might be difficult to prove), wouldn't the seller be liable whether he/she knew about it or not?

DR's point was about a seller possibly being liable even if they didn't know about an issue.

I like that question, I was hoping for some input and opinions like that!
Does anyone know more about the legal side in cases like that?

You liked that suggestion and wanted to explore the possibility.

This puts me off ever selling a horse.

I don't like the idea of a seller being held responsible for issues that they don't know about. IE, they sold the horse honestly, allowed it to be vetted, it passed. The issue only became apparent once ridden work started with the new owner, but the owner can sue the old owner, even though the issue never showed with them and the horse passed the vet.

If you are an honest breeder with an interest in the horses you have bred, then this shouldn't be an issue for you!
You would work with the new owner on finding the best outcome for the horse!

In the scenario I describe, the old owner was honest and sold the horse in good faith.

No. I hope that DR is wrong.

 

[silkec]

If you are an honest owner, you wouldn't break a horse down and then try to send I it back, but some people do just that. And this seller has no idea whether you are one of those people or not. If you have taken the same tone with the sellers as you have on some of your posts on here, then I am not surprised that they are backing away from you after initially offering to help your vet. I feel very, very sorry for you having this problem, and I have no idea whether you have been shafted by the sellers or not, but I suspect there isn't a darned thing you can do about it now if you have

My tone to certain responses is entirely based on the verbal attacks they are based on,
but hear your concern with other buyers trying to send horses back too quickly!
I wouldn't want to be a horse dealer if I had a choice!

By the way, I had no reason to attack the seller in any way yet since I am still somehow hoping for her cooperation.

 

[dogatemysalad]

If you are an honest breeder with an interest in the horses you have bred, then this shouldn't be an issue for you!
You would work with the new owner on finding the best outcome for the horse!

I've always worked with new owners and gone to visit horses I've sold, but with someone who suspected me of dishonesty, I'd keep very quiet too, particularly as you view them with such suspicion. They offered to let your vet work with their vet and you see that as an indicator of their guilt.

FWIT, the last horse I bought was such a nightmare, that my vets, farrier and RI, thought the horse was beyond so dangerous it was beyond rehabilitation. They felt I had been mis sold by the dealer.
Actually, I wasn't. I won't bore you with the story, but basically, I'm saying that vet's see the horse for a short visit, assess it and make assumptions on what they see at that time. Discussing a possible cause for behaviour, isn't the same as a written statement.

 

[sarahann1]

Your poor mare, I can imagine SI injury must be painful, hopefully the vet/physio visits will help her come right again.

As for legal come back etc, I'm afraid I agree with the majority here, she passed a 5 stage vetting, her bloods were clear. I don't think you legally have anywhere to go.

As many have said these injuries can happen in the field in a split second. Someone at my old yard turned her horse out, went back to the stable for another one, 10mins she got back to the field her horse was swinging a broken leg in the field, he got put down there and then, poop happens. It's been a really wet winter with slippery ground, you can't know that she didn't go for a hooley round the field and did the splits, or up ended herself etc.

Playing Devils advocate, let's see it from the sellers side:

I sold a horse, it passed a 5 stage vetting, everyone was happy, 6 months on, she's broken and the buyer wants her money back. I don't think I should give her anything back, how do I know that she's not been injured in the that time?

She's had a saddle made to measure, but she's been in work for the last 2 months, surely she will have changed shape, why would you get a made to measure saddle for a newly rebacked horse?


I'm afraid if I was the seller, I'd be quiet too, hoping you give up and go away.

There are two at my current yard who are both very recent purchases, both are currently on rest for leg/possible tendon/ligament injuries, neither owner is even remotely considering contacting the sellers, they both accept that poop happens and are realistic horses will hurt themselves.

 

[silkec]

DR's point was about a seller possibly being liable even if they didn't know about an issue.




You liked that suggestion and wanted to explore the possibility.



I don't like the idea of a seller being held responsible for issues that they don't know about. IE, they sold the horse honestly, allowed it to be vetted, it passed. The issue only became apparent once ridden work started with the new owner, but the owner can sue the old owner, even though the issue never showed with them and the horse passed the vet.



In the scenario I describe, the old owner was honest and sold the horse in good faith.

No. I hope that DR is wrong.

I agree that a seller can't be responsible for anything and everything. It has to end somewhere! There needs to be an element of having knowledge of something but not telling the new owner.

 

[skint1]

silkec I feel for you, it's not what we imagine when we buy our new horse that we will almost immediately be forking out big vet bills for an injury which may ultimately limit the type of work your horse can do. I have a TB gelding that I bought for my daughter 2011, he didn't cost a lot, in fact even with insurance I've probably spent six times what he's worth on issues with his hocks and back which required hock injections, physio, chiro, remedial farriery and a long time off and a slow rehab, It was about 8-9 months into our ownership that the problems started but I never thought about contacting the seller.

First horse I bought my daughter was totally unsuitable for a teen just coming off ponies, I feel like the dealer should have known that, as we were too novice ourselves to know, but again I never thought about contacting the seller

Only person I know who I feel could possibly have asked a few questions of the seller was a person who bought (in my opinion) a wildly overpriced horse that was broken within a month and put down after a year of box rest and rehab that failed to work. It must have been heartbreaking for that person. From what I can gather, the horse had a a conformational fault, his hooves were oddly shaped and this placed pressure on his legs and this did for him in the end. He would have had this his whole life according to the remedial farrier. I feel like the sellers would have known this, but the buyer didn't ask, didn't get a vetting, and didn't make the connection, it was not my place to say what I thought so I didn't.

I think this is just the breaks with horses. I hope it works out for you and your girl. With treatment, most things aren't the end of the world.

 

[HaffiesRock]

Have to agree with everyone else. You had no problems for the the first month and the horse passed a 5 stage vetting so you wouldn't have a leg to stand on. This is horses unfortunately.

 

[Dry Rot]

If it was a private sale then I'm pretty sure it's buyer beware. If it was a dealer there might be some comeback (generally I mean not specifically this case)

No, I was not commenting on this case, just commenting in generally on an interesting legal point. I believe you are correct.

 

[abb123]

Even the most honest seller can miss problems, especially if she had been very lightly backed and turned away.

This is why we, as buyers, put our trust in a vet to look for potential problems like this.

You had a 5 stage vetting which is a pretty rigorous assessment of a horses health status at that point in time. It should involve some assessment of their soundness during exercise too. You also had bloods taken which were clear.

I think it is quite clear that the vets assessment is that there were no problems otherwise you wouldn't have bought her.

If there was a SI issue at the time of vetting the vet would/should have picked it up.

If you want to think about suing anyone (I don't think you would be right to do so, by the way) then the vet that did the 5 stage vetting would be a more obvious place to start. Have you spoken to that vet about the issue?

In all honesty, if you buy a lightly backed turned away horse then it is always a risk as to how they will behave under saddle. I think the sellers have been honest and are quite understandable distancing themselves from you. I would do the same.

The impression you are giving here is that you are deluding yourself and looking to blame the sellers when in reality the most likely explanation is that she has done this injury under your care. A bitter pill to swallow and far easier to blame someone else.

You would be far better focussing all your attention on getting her sorted out rather than faffing around threatening to sue. It is a massively time consuming, expensive and emotionally draining process that is rarely worth the effort and that is with water tight evidence and a clear indication of a positive outcome. You don't seem to have any hard evidence at all in your theory of SI injury due to having a foal or it being present before you bought her. I can't see how you have a case.

Be honest with yourself, if you were the judge what would you think?

I know some of the posts may seem harsh but it really is the truth. You are setting yourself up for nothing but heartache. I hope you manage to get her sorted out.