Should racing two year olds be banned?

[criso]

As to there not being many, if any entire's that go jumping it's not because we don't want to handle older entire males it's because they generally become too protective of 'themselves' and become too careful over their jumps thus making them slower in the air - more show jumper-ish if you will. A gelding doesn't care about crashing his crown jewels through a fence but a stallion? Nah! They are sensible!
.

I wasn't suggesting that people on yards weren't able to handle stallions, far from it, just that a dozen 5 year old stallions coming into work brings its own logistical demands and what age are store horses gelded at? Much easier to find somewhere to turn away a gelding. Older horses that stay in racing get gelded.

I take your point about stallions being more careful over jumps but the french race them at 3 and 4 and retire some to stud as jump sires. I've heard people over here suggest this system should be tried here to get more proven jump sires.

However jump racing is not where the money is, flat is. And the industry is not necessarily about keeping a horse running year after year, it's based on finding a horse like Frankel and retiring to stud for incredible stud fees at 3.

btw I don't think horses should be ridden that young, I just think it's too ingrained into the whole system to make it easy to change.

 

[cptrayes]

What is it? I can understand the joy horses bring, the winning, the lifestyle, social aspects etc but surely none of this warrants racing gangly unbalanced babes and pitching them on the racetrack only to see so many fall...

I think it may be historical thing. A couple of centuries ago, maybe someone discovered that over short distances you can't beat the power to weight ratio of a top class two year old. So to win short sprints, everyone had to race two year olds. And now we are stuck with it until the whole worldwide industry agrees that it isn't acceptable

Does anyone know if the speed statistics for short sprints bear this out? Otherwise I can't see why it ever happened.

Not only that... My uncle broke every bone in his body. My dad fell a few times and gave up in his teens but uncle continued, his daughter races now sometimes... I'm sure many other jockeys on this forum will say how poor they are... So, what is the attraction?

I completely understand the attraction of being a jockey. The adrenalin rush, like I used to get from eventing and now get from hunting. Those with the thrill-seeker genes will all understand. And if you stop us doing it, we turn into depressives instead

 

[cptrayes]

I think it may be historical thing. A couple of centuries ago, maybe someone discovered that over short distances you can't beat the power to weight ratio of a top class two year old. So to win short sprints, everyone had to race two year olds. And now we are stuck with it until the whole worldwide industry agrees that it isn't acceptable

Does anyone know if the speed statistics for short sprints bear this out? Otherwise I can't see why it ever happened.

According to this, it's not. So why the devil did anyone ever do it? Apparently it started in the late 1800's but I can't find out why yet. Still researching.

https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jes/21/4/21_4_73/_pdf

 

[Mithras]

Does anyone out there have any idea about the economics of waiting a year?

I'n surprised you would construct an entire arguement without finding this out - its pretty commonplace knowledge and not difficult to access.

The flat racing and breeding industry works on as quick returns for investment as possible. Its a game of chance - investors might back a young, unproven stallion, but they want returns as quickly as possible to minimise their risk. Therefore the stallions that are sprint/miler bred tend to dominate because their offspring tend to mature the fastest and do well in the two year old races. It makes them easier to market as fashionable.

Theres a whole other industry involving pinhooking - buying foals by (usually) unproven sires with a view to selling on, hoping they will make their mark by the time they are sold as yearlings.

There are also arguements that working young horses carefully strengthens their bones, joints and ligaments, rather than introducing it suddenly to a mature horse, and that muscle memory for speed in any athlete, equine or otherwise, has to be developed young, because playing catch up is too much of a disadvantage.

Also, the racing industry is hugely important for the UK and hugely successful. The UK is doing badly enough just now with a possible triple dip recession, if it introduced some ban on racing two year olds, it would simply be bypassed by the rest of the racing world and become a backwater. Thousands of people would lose their jobs or be forced to move abroad, and the UK would gain even more of a reputation for putting fluffy bunny rabbitness before anything else.

Two year old races have over 200 years of history. This is not some new radical experiment. Races like the Brocklesy Stakes, the two year old races at Royal Ascot, the Middle Park, the Dewhurst and so on were all being won by Derby winners over a hundred years ago. Horses like Ormonde, Isinglass and Persimmon, all triple crown winners who went onto win staying races like the Ascot Gold Cup as 4 year olds, were all champion two year old winners of the 6 furlong Middle Park at that age.

I actually prefer watching the staying races to the mile races and sprints, but the problem is that the fashion now is for fast maturing two year olds above all else. Perhaps rather than banning two year old racing, the way forward would be to make distance races more fashionable and more popular. Although its still been proven that racing two years olds is a good way of producing successful flat horses over longer distances, as long as its not overdone.

The other problem is inbreeding, particularly to the Danzig line. Danzig himself won I think one race over 6 furlongs as a two year old before breaking down but was a phenomenally successful sire and sire of sires. Danzig was already inbred to Northern Dancer! TB breeding is rife with inbreeding and line breeding, often to usound lines such as Native Dancer way back, which is arguably the cause of more unsoundness and breaking down than racing two year olds, which has been done for hundreds of years.

 

[Alec Swan]

In a word, NO, I don't think that it's right, and it wouldn't be something which I would care to do.

We should remember though, that it's generally only the most forward and the most precocious colts which are offered up for early backing, and even then there's a selection process which would weed out those which weren't coping, so I'd suggest that perhaps there are those youngsters which can cope.

As a matter of interest, I wonder how many of the famous flat bred sires were raced at 2 years of age. A fair percentage, I suspect.

Alec.

 

[Caol Ila]

I think it may be historical thing. A couple of centuries ago, maybe someone discovered that over short distances you can't beat the power to weight ratio of a top class two year old. So to win short sprints, everyone had to race two year olds. And now we are stuck with it until the whole worldwide industry agrees that it isn't acceptable

Does anyone know if the speed statistics for short sprints bear this out? Otherwise I can't see why it ever happened.

Dr. Deb Bennett in that paper posted earlier explained the origins of racing 2-year olds. She says that early thoroughbred races from the seventeenth century were four miles long and the horses would run successive heats, so they could race as many as 20 miles in a day. Then in the nineteenth century, futurity races for 2 and 3-year olds were invented in order to showcase prospects to potential investors. People knew fine well that racing a 2 or 3 year old 4 or 20 miles would kill it, so they shortened the race to anywhere between 7/8 of a mile to 2 miles. These sprints were much more exciting for bettors, eventually outcompeting the longer races and becoming the standard for the industry (Bennett, 13).

Last year the New York Times conducted an investigation that exposed some of the welfare omnishambles that is the American racing industry. The articles mostly reflected on rampant use of drugs to keep unsound horses on the track. They were a very good, but it seemed to me that the elephant in the room that no one, at the Times or anywhere else, wanted to acknowledge was the young age at which horses are raced. Okay, we can have greater restrictions and oversights on which drugs you can give your horses before a race, and that kind of lets the industry get on with business as usual, but everyone feels as if they're making some positive steps towards increased horse welfare at the same time. But to start making noise about 2-year old racing? That would undermine the entire racing edifice as we know it.

 

[Mithras]

Some horses show their best form at 2yo. One such horse was Wootten Bassett. He won all 5 of his races and over £500k as a 2yo. As a 3yo? Bloomin useless (in comparison to the year before) So he was retired to stud. If they had waited until he was 3yo would they have got that explosion of short lived talent? It's the chance they took.

Wootton Bassett is actually a very good example of a horse who was bred to be at his best at two. He was one of those quick maturing types who had the strength, in comparison to his peers, to excel at that age. I doubt anyone involved with him, other than the trainer and stable staff perhaps, would ever have been surprised that he did nothing as a 3 year old. He had already been a highly profitable horse at two.

If anyone has ever ridden these Danzig line two years olds on the gallops, you will know how fast maturing and strong they are compared to other two year olds. I was lucky enough to work for Jim Bolger during my university holidays, and remember continually fighting a battle not to be carted by yet another Nordic something-or-other - weak those two year olds were not!

Wootton Basset's pedigree is 3 times inbred to Northern Dancer in the fourth generation - in other words, out of 8 great great grandsires, 3 of them are either Northern Dancer himself or one of his sons. Two of those sons, Nureyev and Danzig raced at two only or broke down early in their 3 year old days, as did his Wotton Basset's paternal great great grandsire Mr. Prospector. All were incredibly successful sires of fast maturing two year olds.

Interestingly, he does have a cross of Ahonoora in his pedigree, which of course is an increasingly rare representation of the Byreley Turk line, which is sure to die out soon. Even more interestingly, that line seems capable of producing late maturing distance horses (eg Melbourne Cup winners like Nicobar) out of seemingly pure sprinting lines, which makes it even more tragic to the development of genes of the TB racehorse that its probably not going to survive much longer.

 

[pines of rome]

My boy has a lot of soundness issues and his grandsire is Danzig, so maybe these are hereditary ! But I do think they are raced to young and also shod at such a young age, which in my boy,s case has resulted in foot problems!
In the past I have had ex chasers, which were started at a later age and I did not have all the problems that I do with my little flat horse!

 

[Mariposa]

Interestingly, he does have a cross of Ahonoora in his pedigree, which of course is an increasingly rare representation of the Byreley Turk line, which is sure to die out soon. Even more interestingly, that line seems capable of producing late maturing distance horses (eg Melbourne Cup winners like Nicobar) out of seemingly pure sprinting lines, which makes it even more tragic to the development of genes of the TB racehorse that its probably not going to survive much longer.

I have a bit of an obsession with the Ahonoora line - they have speed and stamina. I tried to buy a gorgeous Indian Ridge filly last year at Ascot, and we missed out. I am hoping to send my Mark of Esteem mare to Sleeping Indian, who is by Indian Ridge, so that same line...

 

[wench]

Interesting post... I have a young mare who's grandsire is Ahonoora (mother's sire). Her mother was rather old when she was born! Also has Northern Dancer/Danzig etc in.

There are many arguments for things, but I guess that for certain races... two year olds have the "optimum" speed to win it? I could be wrong here. And as others have said, the flat racers often retire very early... so surely this means that they get less work than NH horses?

 

[amandap]

I can clearly see that at 2 some might be at their fastest but this is all the wrong way round to me. We should be getting the best from them with their health as a priority. So if a ban on 2 year olds racing ever happened it may be that there are records and accolades that will never be beaten/attained. So what? Does that really matter, surely different records and accolades would take their place?

 

[Merrymoles]

Mithras makes some good points re breeding. Even with the current system, we will not know whether Frankel passes on his speed genes to his offspring for three years - ie, a year's gestation plus two years for the first batch of offspring. This is one of the drivers for racing two-year-olds - finding out whether the breeding works - particularly with unproven sires with massive stud fees. Stud fees are much higher for flat than NH so that increases the pressure to "test" the results young. Owners and breeders will then return to that sire or walk away.
I am not comfortable with two-year-olds racing, although I, too, have seen some very mature two-year-olds, but believe the economics mean any change is some way off.

 

[Beausmate]

We should remember though, that it's generally only the most forward and the most precocious colts which are offered up for early backing, and even then there's a selection process which would weed out those which weren't coping, so I'd suggest that perhaps there are those youngsters which can cope.

Alec.

Not in the flat yard I worked in, the weedy horses were all backed at the same time. If they weren't ready to race, they just stayed in the same training routine as the others, just no trips to racecourses.

I don't think the backing of yearlings (they're horrible to ride-really wobbly ) is the biggest problem in racing two year olds, more the way they're kept and trained. I've seen several that were basically insane and for me that was far worse.

The other problem I think, is sales prep. We had a dozen yearlings come over from the states, they looked more like three year olds compared to the uk bred horses, some of which were tiny. The big ones sell for more, so they're really started as foals, with the walking out and high calorie feeds. Lots of them already have joint problems.

Agree with Mithras on the breeding front, we had one filly by Sir Ivor who is well known for breeding unsoundness. She broke down before she was even backed.

As for age and speed, what about Yeats? Older and fast. Besides, if all of the horses are the same age, there is no disadvantage in racing them older.

 

[siennamum]

There are many arguments for things, but I guess that for certain races... two year olds have the "optimum" speed to win it? I could be wrong here. And as others have said, the flat racers often retire very early... so surely this means that they get less work than NH horses?

I was at a big yard a few years ago where they specialise in 2 year olds. It was horrid, VV smart but ranks of stables filled with babies. Going out to gallop we had the yard star pointed out to us, he was an unremarkable and not very sound horse who was bandaged up to the eyeballs. He was being retired to stud having had a long and illustrious career. He looked to be in his mid to late teens.

I asked and was told he was a 5 year old. It was absolutely shocking.

I think the sooner these yards are brought into line with welfare standards accepted across the horse industry in the rest of UK the better. I question the provenance of most of the lads who work in these yards also, these days they seem to all be Sri Lankans or similar who have limited or no riding ability, are lightweight, live in squalor and on minimum wage. Hardly encouraging them to be overly concerned with the welfare of their charges really.

 

[laura_nash]

Is there any reason why this should not stop? It started way back in the days when horses were the machines of the day, and surely we have moved on from that?

Haven't read the whole thread but there is some very interesting history on racing of young TB's here http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf , which essentially blames betting. It claims that modern racing started out in the late 19th century as futurities, short races for youngsters designed as a marketing ploy ("sneak peek" of upcoming stars), run alongside the then normal races (which had been going since the 17th century) featuring mature horses racing over 4 miles plus. Unfortunately these short races were so popular with betters they overtook the original racing format and became the norm.

 

[amandap]

Mithras makes some good points re breeding.

Yes, and EKW's and Beausmate's posts are very interesting to me.

I don't think the backing of yearlings (they're horrible to ride-really wobbly ) is the biggest problem in racing two year olds, more the way they're kept and trained. I've seen several that were basically insane and for me that was far worse.

Another of my red flags going up re your comments about 1 year olds being wobbly.
I strongly agree with your other point here too.

 

[tallyho!]

Haven't read the whole thread but there is some very interesting history on racing of young TB's here http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf , which essentially blames betting. It claims that modern racing started out in the late 19th century as futurities, short races for youngsters designed as a marketing ploy ("sneak peek" of upcoming stars), run alongside the then normal races (which had been going since the 17th century) featuring mature horses racing over 4 miles plus. Unfortunately these short races were so popular with betters they overtook the original racing format and became the norm.

I agree... it's all to do with the betting, the punters the gambling not to mention the massive sponsorships.

The average gambler doesn't care... heck they bet on this fgs...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhyofMr44TU

 

[RutlandH2O]

In the late 1989, I was flying from Heathrow to the States. Seated next to me was a gentleman from Chicago, who had been in the UK and Ireland looking at possible sites in which to move his racing operation. Having always disapproved of the training and racing of babies, I asked him why it was done. He said that younger, lighter horses put on greater bursts of speed than their older, heavier counterparts, and that that was what was wanted on the track by trainers, owners and punters. He went on to say that there were vast numbers of casualties in the process, but that it was part of the economics of the business. Needless to say, his quiet, unimpassioned response to my query has been indelibly etched in my psyche.

 

[amandap]

That's sent a cold shiver down my spine RutlandH20.

Re betting and it's influence on racing... how does it work? Racing and those involved are supposed to be bet (corruption) free aren't they? I know I'm being a numpty here but why does it have such a direct influence? As I said earlier sponsorship in prize money etc. is the only obvious way I can see as an outsider. Punters paying to watch?
Surely they would still watch, sponsor and bet on races involving slightly older horses?

 

[cptrayes]

I'n surprised you would construct an entire arguement without finding this out - its pretty commonplace knowledge and not difficult to access.
.

I haven't, your surprise is misplaced.





The rest of your posts was very interesting, thankyou.

 

[St Nicnaclaus]

Two of those sons, Nureyev and Danzig raced at two only or broke down early in their 3 year old days, as did his Wotton Basset's paternal great great grandsire Mr. Prospector.

Mithras - are you saying that Mr. Prospector broke down as a 3 year old or that he was raced as a 2yo?

I thought he went on longer than 3 and was then sold to Japan?

Asking as he is the grandsire of my horse who is by Hector Protector.

 

[Mithras]

Mithras - are you saying that Mr. Prospector broke down as a 3 year old or that he was raced as a 2yo?

I thought he went on longer than 3 and was then sold to Japan?

Asking as he is the grandsire of my horse who is by Hector Protector.

Sorry, don't know why I thought that - I've just checked, and Mr Prospector was a US sprinter who raced til 4. He did break down partially as a 3yo but recovered for the next season and then was retired to stud.

I think its Hector Protector who ended up in Japan.

I think I thought that about Mr P because so many top class leading sires retired early due to unsoundness problems. Fairy King, Nureyev and Danzig all spring immediately to mind, with Storm Bird a leading 2yo who never won again. There are an awful lot of US sires with soundness problems who are very popular. Perhaps there is a fine line between unsoundness and 2 year old precocity, and sometimes the mare can correct what is lacking in soundness in the "fast" genes of the sire. The TB racehorse is now from a very limited gene pool, and a gene pool which in recent years has encouraged breeding of unsoundness and waste in achieving the aim of precocious speed.

I think the TB industry is breeding more and more unsound, precocious sprint and mile bred horses. Its making racing boring. I'd far rather watch Yeats win a staying race than yet another one hit wonder sprinter win a Group 3. But there isn't the commercial payback in breeding stayers or even middle distance horses like Derby contenders. It was said that the Godolphin line (now virtually extinct in the male line but still with us in the female line as Eclipse had 2 crosses) was the best breeding, and also a source for better bone and bigger size in the TB. Ahonooras/Lorenzaccios/In Realitys all seem to die young, which must limit their genetic throwout.

Even Frankel - dare I say it - was "only" a miler and mile and a quarter horse. He did not conquer all distances, and his racing programme was conservative. And but for the skilled and careful handling of Henry Cecil and his team, who knows if he would have trained on beyond a precocious 2 yo.

 

[Springy]

Hubby is in racing

they leave theirs to race at 4 youngest

Pity everyone doesnt do the same

 

[Ellen Durow]

I don't know of a single non-racing horse person who believes that it is right to back racing thoroughbreds at 18 months and race them from 24 months old.

Is there any reason why this should not stop? It started way back in the days when horses were the machines of the day, and surely we have moved on from that?

Would the racing industry be much affected by the delay of a year in being able to race young TBs?

Would there be some benefits? Perhaps less of a desperate need to get them all born as close to January 1st as they can? Better resale values of failed racers because they have not been started so terribly young?

I have no idea if it would seriously impact flat racing. Obviously there would be some economic impact, but would it be disastrous?

Because race horses' birthdate is always on the same date regardless of the actual date of bitth they can be considerably less than 24 monhs old.

 

[tallyho!]

Sorry, don't know why I thought that - I've just checked, and Mr Prospector was a US sprinter who raced til 4. He did break down partially as a 3yo but recovered for the next season and then was retired to stud.

I think its Hector Protector who ended up in Japan.

I think I thought that about Mr P because so many top class leading sires retired early due to unsoundness problems. Fairy King, Nureyev and Danzig all spring immediately to mind, with Storm Bird a leading 2yo who never won again. There are an awful lot of US sires with soundness problems who are very popular. Perhaps there is a fine line between unsoundness and 2 year old precocity, and sometimes the mare can correct what is lacking in soundness in the "fast" genes of the sire. The TB racehorse is now from a very limited gene pool, and a gene pool which in recent years has encouraged breeding of unsoundness and waste in achieving the aim of precocious speed.

I think the TB industry is breeding more and more unsound, precocious sprint and mile bred horses. Its making racing boring. I'd far rather watch Yeats win a staying race than yet another one hit wonder sprinter win a Group 3. But there isn't the commercial payback in breeding stayers or even middle distance horses like Derby contenders. It was said that the Godolphin line (now virtually extinct in the male line but still with us in the female line as Eclipse had 2 crosses) was the best breeding, and also a source for better bone and bigger size in the TB. Ahonooras/Lorenzaccios/In Realitys all seem to die young, which must limit their genetic throwout.

Even Frankel - dare I say it - was "only" a miler and mile and a quarter horse. He did not conquer all distances, and his racing programme was conservative. And but for the skilled and careful handling of Henry Cecil and his team, who knows if he would have trained on beyond a precocious 2 yo.

Mithras, your posts make me feel so sad . Nothing to do you with you by the way but the thought that tbs are bred to break down almost. Such a waste. This is one reason why I did not buy a tb when I was looking for a new horse last year. Don't get me wrong, I still think many tbs go on to successful careers in other areas but the trend is plain to see.

Isn't speed something to do with the c-allele? That's what breeders for flat are chasing?

Sad to thinks the old Godolphin and Turk lines are disappearing... Just a moment in history.

 

[Rebels]

Yesterday I saw a new NH horse, 4 years old, been backed 2 weeks, has no steering or brakes and has been on the gallops everyday since. That can't be ideal either. With regards to breeding,I was given a 2012 filly as she was born weighing 30kg and they didn't feel she was worth the money to get to sales. She was a first foal and so they didn't want her to reflect on the mare. The foals and the yearlings program to get to sales is possibly the root of soundness issues. Foal prep for some is 1/2 a bag of prep mix, 20-40 minutes on the walker and up to an hour walking in hand. Yearlings, 45 minutes fast lunge work, 1- 1 1/2 on the walker and sales ring training. The amount of food they get given is astonishing and the change in them? Scruffy babies grow almost a hand within 8 weeks and come out gleaming lumps of muscle. And no one stud can change because then their horses look backwards in comparison and they need to look fit and muscled as they will be backed almost straight away. That to me is where your soundness issues start. Then you can get into racehorse sound ie sound in gallop only...

 

[tallyho!]

Yesterday I saw a new NH horse, 4 years old, been backed 2 weeks, has no steering or brakes and has been on the gallops everyday since. That can't be ideal either. With regards to breeding,I was given a 2012 filly as she was born weighing 30kg and they didn't feel she was worth the money to get to sales. She was a first foal and so they didn't want her to reflect on the mare. The foals and the yearlings program to get to sales is possibly the root of soundness issues. Foal prep for some is 1/2 a bag of prep mix, 20-40 minutes on the walker and up to an hour walking in hand. Yearlings, 45 minutes fast lunge work, 1- 1 1/2 on the walker and sales ring training. The amount of food they get given is astonishing and the change in them? Scruffy babies grow almost a hand within 8 weeks and come out gleaming lumps of muscle. And no one stud can change because then their horses look backwards in comparison and they need to look fit and muscled as they will be backed almost straight away. That to me is where your soundness issues start. Then you can get into racehorse sound ie sound in gallop only...

Of course, yes, I forgot to think of that.

 

[wench]

Ahonooras/Lorenzaccios/In Realitys all seem to die young, which must limit their genetic throwout.

My mare's mother made it to about 19/20. I dont know if she is still alive or not. I dont think she had any more foals though.

 

[skint1]

I actually agree with you, even though I am pro-racing. I think moving it back one year to 3 year old would be better. I work in jump racing, and a lot are not even backed as 4 year olds! So you can't tar everyone with the same brush.
Also the French are far worse than the British and Irish, jumping horses as 2/3 year olds which is disgusting.
Also quite a few horse which were useless as 2 year olds, make very good horses as 4/5/6 year olds, when they are a lot stronger. We have had a few which were weak gangly things as 2 year olds, and big strapping horses as 5 year olds and go on to win.

an excellent post, and so TRUE. I know a few people who took on 3yo ex racers who were weedy and with the attention span of a gnat by time those horses were 4 even they were much more substantial physically and mentally.

I'm on my phone so difficult but has anyone read a recent paper that I've heard about which outlines how the early start can help prevent injuries on the track? Id love to know how that conclusion was arrived at.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Random thoughts whilst happy hacking s'mornin.

I'm currently sitting on a 6yo chaser who started his career in August of his 2yo year. To date he has had sore shins and had a minor tendon injury at the end of his 4yo year. He is bred for staying 1.2-1.4m flat races.

My next horse is an 8yo french mare who was bred for jumping so didn't get touched till she was 3yo - she is built like a small sprinter - and didnt race until November of her 3yo year. She is 3mile bog hurdler. To date she has never taken a lame step and has a windgall on one of her front fetlocks.

2 vastly different horses in mentality aswell. This wee ex-flat horse has no patience to speak of and is quite revvy. We have had him for 2years and he has calmed down a lot in that time. The mare has the patience of a saint. Goes anywhere, does anything and battles like a demon in her races. 2 hugely different sets of bloodlines. 2 different upbringings resulting kn 2 different outlooks on life.