Should we ban whips??

[Landcruiser]

I use a hi viz schooling whip with a streamer on the end to make cars give me space - I'd feel naked hacking on the roads without it. Also use shorter slappy crop to smack my boots when needing more forward, works a treat. Whips are useful tools. That said, kids slapping ponies with whips is vile. (I took mine out of a riding school which encouraged them to do this) - that should definitely be banned.

 

[paddi22]

just playing devils advocate here for debates sake, as regards a horses 'rights', should it have the right to come in from the field and say 'no I don't want to listen to your leg, no I don't want to go forward'? do we even have the right to 'make' them do anything? especially if they don't want to?

 

[maya2008]

Far kinder than a boot in the ribs or endless pony club kicks. Do I use one for anything other than a deterrent on the 'made' ponies? No. To get to that point, they are a useful tool that do less harm than the aforementioned kicking. Quick flick stings at most but doesn't bruise like a kick would. I've hit myself plenty, would much rather that than someone kick me!!!

We use ours as an extension of our arms. It's a tool. You can use it incorrectly, but you can use your hands and feet incorrectly too.

I mostly work with young horses, giving them a chance. Sometimes I carry a whip for safety reasons - the noise of it moving through the air, hitting the ground or my boot can head off an issue. I don't really want to be kicked in the head by an over exuberant feral youngster! Long reining needs a whip - little tap here and there is communication, it doesn't hurt. Driving needs a whip. My ponies see a whip as an extension of my hand - they're no more scared of it than they are of me.

In that video - if she wasn't using a whip she could have used a broom handle or a length of pipe or anything really... the whip is a tool not the problem in itself.

 

[maya2008]

just playing devils advocate here for debates sake, as regards a horses 'rights', should it have the right to come in from the field and say 'no I don't want to listen to your leg, no I don't want to go forward'? do we even have the right to 'make' them do anything? especially if they don't want to?

I eat meat...so I'm not going to comment on this!!!

 

[paddi22]

Far kinder than a boot in the ribs or endless pony club kicks.

but for discussions sake - at some level that's targted physical aggression as well isn't it? if creche workers went around tapping kids with sticks or kicking them there would be murder. why is a different for an animal? if a horse tired is tired, or sore or just not in the mood for work, should we physically have the right to make them do it?

 

[Wizpop]

Whips, bits, spurs, saddles, legs....

They're all tools we use for communication. They're all capable of causing pain to a horse.
The problem is never with the tool it's the human operating it.
If we don't have the self control not to yank on a rein or smack in anger, then to me that's the true issue to address.

Couldn’t agree more!

 

[paddy555]

When you think about it using a whip or even threatening the use of one is not ethical.

I carry a schooling whip, I have threatened and I have used it for safety.
When I am riding my stallion down the road and 30 odd feral mares plus their own stallion are trotting down towards us then I remind my lad who is in charge here. I don't want 2 stallions deciding to have a battle with me in the middle.

He behaves with other horses but when you are a stallion and a whole heap of feral mares descend on you it is a bit different and takes some getting used to.

 

[blitznbobs]

I did 3 sessions of in hand work and liberty today. I used a whip for all three horses... and the whip only touched one horse once... And that was laying it on his neck (which is my signal for stop) to say he had done enough... I don't actually need one for my older horses but it is an arm extension and makes it clearer what I want with the younger horses. I can use the end of the rope for most things but this is actually more 'energetic' than it needs to be and a whip is a low energy tool for me.

Lunging certain horses (ones that run in on you) without a whip is simply dangerous.

Banning whips in competition could happen but you are never going to stop them behind doors but neither do I think they are a problem per se... and a bad person can find something to batter a horse with whatever they have around

 

[maya2008]

but for discussions sake - at some level that's targted physical aggression as well isn't it? if creche workers went around tapping kids with sticks or kicking them there would be murder. why is a different for an animal? if a horse tired is tired, or sore or just not in the mood for work, should we physically have the right to make them do it?

Why would you use a whip for any of those reasons you have stated? It wouldn't achieve anything.

Children vs horses - different communication abilities, reasoning power, the lot. You should be aware though that through psychological means, we DO train children to keep going if they are tired, or not in the mood, or ill. Absolutely we do. So they can learn and one day get a job, be literate/numerate to cope in life, and have the resilience to go to work to earn money even when they don't want to.

 

[Jenko109]

It's a no from me.

Where would you draw the line?

Ban spurs.
Ban the bit?
Controller/Dually type headcollars?
Nose bands?

It sounds beautifully idealistic that every horse can be beautifully ridden without the need for a whip to back up the leg aid. Or with spurs. Or with a bit. Or a nose band. Or anything else that has the potential to be misused.

It isn't realistic though. The whip absolutely has a place.

 

[Cortez]

No, it's a tool not a weapon, learn how to use one appropriately. Whips are banned in dressage competition.

 

[blitznbobs]

but for discussions sake - at some level that's targted physical aggression as well isn't it? if creche workers went around tapping kids with sticks or kicking them there would be murder. why is a different for an animal? if a horse tired is tired, or sore or just not in the mood for work, should we physically have the right to make them do it?

You are
a) talking about babies in a creche ... these are adult horses. A better comparison might be teenagers and I have definitely needed to encourage my son out of bed in the morning (AKA yelling ) I spend a lot more time in persuading him to do stuff than I do my horses and it often feels a lot more futile. We lead kids by the hand all the time and don't let them run into the road when they really want to. We pick them up and stick them in a car/ buggy and take them physically to the shops when they really don't want to go ... or drag them around tourist destinations that we want to go to and they really don't. Sometimes they enjoy themselves when they get there and sometimes they dont but it is part of being a member of a family and learning to put up with a degree of discomfort is actually beneficial to their life in the long run. Horses have been domesticated for 10s of thousands of years so comparing them to wild animals is a false comparison. For better or worse they have been bred by humans to be beasts of burden, speed, companionship. Most are not well adjusted to the wild, and for most their is no natural environment left for them anyway. So the option is we do the best we can for them or we shoot the lot of them.

I have 3 working horses, a pony that works and 2 brood mares and they 'fight' for my attention... they get jealous if I go to another horse even in the field... I don't treat horses randomly (only after work) and they mostly have free access to forage so it's not about food... so there must be something for them in the interaction they have with me... otherwise they would be glad I was leaving them alone and talking to another.

 

[DabDab]

but for discussions sake - at some level that's targted physical aggression as well isn't it? if creche workers went around tapping kids with sticks or kicking them there would be murder. why is a different for an animal? if a horse tired is tired, or sore or just not in the mood for work, should we physically have the right to make them do it?

But using that logic then we shouldn't make physical contact with them at all then surely? So liberty clicker training type work only (purely R+). But then what if they are still not in the mood but we confuse them by providing such a great reward/breeding for such a high reward drive that they do it anyway? In dogs I've certainly seen them cause themselves harm, despite being R+ trained only because their natural and training developed drive is so high that in the moment it just overwhelms any other instincts or ailments that they might have.

However, also for the sake of discussion, we do have a young horse now who is the first I have backed that does spontaneously come to a halt when being ridden - not in a shut down way, just in a 'I'm just going to stand here for a bit now' kind of way. For interest-sake I did experiment with different training ideas with her. I tried treats when she walked on and kept walking, which worked well while there was someone on the ground to give her the treats, but I couldn't get it to transfer to voice cues without my physical presence on the ground nearby. Then we tried waiting it out - sometimes she would walk on again, sometimes not, but she didn't seem particularly bothered by just standing around all day. And then I tried using one of my others as a lead horse, but she wasn't fussed by that either, she still just stopped when she fancied it while we marched off around the arena without her.

OH was insistent that she just didn't like the arena, so in the end we just took her hacking. And lo and behold, no stopping, just merrily marching along for the full 45 mins we were out pottering. So it appears that she is officially a going places horse and not a going round in circles horse.

And I assume that that is more the sort of thing that you are talking about? Giving the space for a horse having opinions and preferences rather than reaching for a tool that can help you (one) override those preferences...?

 

[Barklands]

I would say no we should not ban them however, I was taught from a very young age that the lunge whip is not to even touch the horse and a school whip is to tickle the hind quarter, only when necessary.

 

[paddi22]

And I assume that that is more the sort of thing that you are talking about? Giving the space for a horse having opinions and preferences rather than reaching for a tool that can help you (one) override those preferences...?

that is exactly what I was trying to convey and couldn’t get the words right!

 

[lynz88]

My horse is Uber lazy and very easily ignores. Always has and always will. Usually a flick (or few) that doesn't touch him is enough but sometimes a tap behind the leg is needed once or twice as a backup to my leg. But leg always first before artificial aids. There is a huge difference between running after and really going for it whacking the horse and/or a bunch of serious whacks vs taps or flicks with a whip, even if the tap is more than just a love tap. On the lunge (usually free lunge) a good crack WELL AWAY from him wakes him up and gets him to pay attention. Otherwise all he does is ignore. A bomb could go off next to him and he probably couldn't be bothered to move.

As others said, any aid/communication with the horse can be a punishment if used incorrectly.

 

[Melody Grey]

I would say no we should not ban them however, I was taught from a very young age that the lunge whip is not to even touch the horse and a school whip is to tickle the hind quarter, only when necessary.

That too is my interpretation and a useful tool as used above.

I always carry a whip out hacking and do wear spurs (knowledgeably used) with my sharper horse- there are times where running backwards into a ditch has needed to be curtailed very promptly for safety, especially when I’ve had a child on the lead rein too.

 

[lynz88]

just playing devils advocate here for debates sake, as regards a horses 'rights', should it have the right to come in from the field and say 'no I don't want to listen to your leg, no I don't want to go forward'? do we even have the right to 'make' them do anything? especially if they don't want to?

For mine, there is a difference between "no I'm achey and can't move forward" and "I'm lazy and can't be bothered". The difference is subtle but it is there. If it's an "I'm achey" I don't press. If I am in the school and it's an "I feel achey" then I change course and we go for a walk as I know it is his arthritis and don't press. I can usually tell the difference pretty quickly but comes from years with him and learning his language.

 

[Goldenstar]

The whip is just an aid .

 

[Fizzandfun]

I think we need to step back and look at how riding is taught. It’s so different now. Kids are cantering before they have established their seats. If there was more focus on giving correct aids, there would be less whip use.

That said, banning the whip will not stop people abusing their animals. They’ll find something else to use - lead rope etc.

For what it’s worth, I do think anyone who witnesses excessive whip use should be reported. I did it years ago at a show (going back 35 years). Awful man was attempting to load a horse at a local show and used his whip and boot to get him on. The horse kicked him back and I reported him. He received a three year ban. If someone treats an animal like that in front of others, what do they do when there is no-one watching?

 

[LEC]

I love a schooling whip. Would I want to see it banned? No. I use them for loading, groundwork, hacking, schooling etc Either as an extension of my arm, keep cars away or to remove the need of having to PC kick with a well timed flick.
Have I completely changed in the way I use a whip over 40 years of riding? Yes.

I can’t remember the last time I smacked a horse. I barely carry a jump whip anymore as now see any issues as a training issue and to unravel the issue and fill the holes instead. I still carry one xc and have literally been asking myself why in last 2 weeks, whether it’s habit or if I think it would change anything. Maybe I will give up the habit as I don’t use it.

 

[Dave's Mam]

I carry a whip, either a crop or a schooling whip, but I mostly use it on my own leg. I have also done a tap on the shoulder to remind the ever greedy FuzzyPants that tipping me off over his head because some grass looks very tasty isn't really cool.

 

[MidChristmasCrisis]

Honestly whilst I’m saddened Charlotte lost her focus and used the lunge whip incorrectly I have witnessed so much worse from established BHS registered coaches and trainers at pony club rallies in front of young people and their parents. Whips do have a place in training..correctly used by people in control of their emotions and educated properly.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I lunge once or twice a week, would not be able to do it without, I use it to push my mare forward when she goes into her annoying slow lazy jog, and also to push her out when she comes in or cuts corners.

 

[sherry90]

I’d rather see there being an option to use a whip OR voice (or both if used in the correct way) in competition. I don’t get the theory on voice not being acceptable (it’s surely more harmonious than seeing a horse be kicked round a test)?

 

[eahotson]

just playing devils advocate here for debates sake, as regards a horses 'rights', should it have the right to come in from the field and say 'no I don't want to listen to your leg, no I don't want to go forward'? do we even have the right to 'make' them do anything? especially if they don't want to?

Good point

 

[eahotson]

Honestly whilst I’m saddened Charlotte lost her focus and used the lunge whip incorrectly I have witnessed so much worse from established BHS registered coaches and trainers at pony club rallies in front of young people and their parents. Whips do have a place in training..correctly used by people in control of their emotions and educated properly.

Well said.

 

[huskydamage]

I wouldn't care if they were banned. I don't use them or spurs. I have used a short crop for XC in the past, although even that ive ditched, there are so many things I was taught to do with horses that I just stopped as when you actually think about it they make no sense and why am I even doing it?
If you go to any local show you will see so many people who are way too trigger happy with whips. I've had both my own horses spook at the sound of other people whacking their horses and yelling. My horse shit herself out on a hack as someone's whipsmack noise carried from across a road/field, all the horse did was turn its head to look at my horse. What's all that about?!

 

[huskydamage]

Same as above, it's a horrible clip but I'm not shocked by it at all.

 

[bonny]

Honestly whilst I’m saddened Charlotte lost her focus and used the lunge whip incorrectly I have witnessed so much worse from established BHS registered coaches and trainers at pony club rallies in front of young people and their parents. Whips do have a place in training..correctly used by people in control of their emotions and educated properly.

Isn’t one of the reasons the video is so shocking because Charlotte is in control of her emotions, she’s perfectly calm as she whacks the horse and in the dressage world she would be considered to have had a good education ?