Dressage Should we Keep Going

[Ossy2]

So, sorry if this is slightly long. We made the step up from elementary to medium last year did AF’s last year at elementary and medium getting top 10 at elementary finals and being in bottom half of leader board at medium, usually get mid 60’s at medium but low 60’s at AF. But want to concentrate on mediums now and hopefully A.medium in the future. The comments at medium have always been needs more cadence, fair enough me and trainer agree and we’re working on it, but at the moment getting more cadence currently then interferes with the trot rhythm/regularity of the trot so catch 22. Recently one particular judge who was giving us mid 60’s Before lockdown is now barely giving us 60% despite both me and my two trainers considering the quality of my tests have improved, have most Of my tests videoed so easily can study them and compare. Now my overly sceptical mind is thinking that reading between the lines of the judge’s comments they’re almost implying to me that ok i’ve judged you a few times now and could you please go away until you address them and Obviously the marks are much harsher, almost like ok they’re not getting message so I’m going to spell it out to them. Am I out my depth? Should I step back for now, try avoid that judge or just keep going? Trainers think I should keep going as we are as we’re definitely better and life’s to short to step back. I’m in a quandary with myself.

 

[milliepops]

what do other judges say?
I don't really base my decisions on what one judge says. they sometimes have different bugbears after all and there's one in particular around me that plainly just doesn't have any time for common little ponies so I definitely don't give his comments too much thought! however if i was getting similar from others then i'd definitely think it was something I needed to pay attention. (edited because that sounded a bit like I know more than the judge. I mean if one judge was really out on a limb compared to others, I wouldn't change my whole training strategy to suit.)

Cadence is only one little bit of the way of going. Is there literally nothing else mentioned on the sheets?

Something I find really useful for getting insider info is test riding clinics with judges. Don't know where you are but the BD regions seem to run these fairly often around me and I find it a very good way of getting more detailed feedback from experienced judges. You might look for one of those and use the time to pick someone else's brains on what they see and how they would score you.

 

[Ossy2]

what do other judges say?
I don't really base my decisions on what one judge says. they sometimes have different bugbears after all and there's one in particular around me that plainly just doesn't have any time for common little ponies so I definitely don't give his comments too much thought! however if i was getting similar from others then i'd definitely think it was something I needed to pay attention. (edited because that sounded a bit like I know more than the judge. I mean if one judge was really out on a limb compared to others, I wouldn't change my whole training strategy to suit.)

Cadence is only one little bit of the way of going. Is there literally nothing else mentioned on the sheets?

Something I find really useful for getting insider info is test riding clinics with judges. Don't know where you are but the BD regions seem to run these fairly often around me and I find it a very good way of getting more detailed feedback from experienced judges. You might look for one of those and use the time to pick someone else's brains on what they see and how they would score you.

thank you for the reply nothing else really from this judge needs more cadence is always their comment in the collectives, in the main test they sometimes mention the size of a circle or wanting, more engagement or down in a particular movements but nothing out the ordinary. Their latest comments went along the lines of horse can clearly do all the movements but not test ready as lacks cadence which is what got me thinking, they think I’m not taking any notice. This is a list 1 judge hence taking some more notice.
Other judges tend to comment on lateral suppleness and slight rushing in the mediums/extensions.
Test riding Is a good call thanks, one trainer is experienced dressage and taken me ages to find that I can really feel the difference with but their over an hour away hence can’t have them every week, the other is less experienced in dressage but keeps on the straight and narrow in between

 

[milliepops]

hmmm so it sounds like there are other things worth paying attention to as well, so at least you've got some clues going forward.
I think some judges give you info in the collectives as stuff to be working on for future development if that makes sense? to save sanity I'd look to the comments on the movements first and foremost because they will also be affecting your collective scores, incorrect size circles have an impact on the rider mark for instance because you aren't delivering the test as written

Might you have the opportunity to nobble this judge one day at the end of the class for a quick word? i often see judges after the class finishes going to look at the scoreboard though accept this might be tricky under covid rules. if you were feeling really curious you could offer the venue to write for them once or twice.. it's an interesting way to figure people out. i have written for some that have their own pet phrase and give it to everyone, then you know it's either not just you, it's their hobby horse whereas sometimes you can really learn what they are looking for and the difference between the people hitting the sweet spot and those just missing it.

My trainer is highly experienced with dressage but i still get a lot out of a test riding clinic, judges do come at it from a different perspective than trainers I find, so its helpful to get a bit more time with the "other side".

eta. sometimes people don't notice it so thought I'd mention, sometimes judges underline words from the directives instead of writing them down, so you could also check that to see if it gives you more clues about how they are thinking.

 

[Ossy2]

hmmm so it sounds like there are other things worth paying attention to as well, so at least you've got some clues going forward.
I think some judges give you info in the collectives as stuff to be working on for future development if that makes sense? to save sanity I'd look to the comments on the movements first and foremost because they will also be affecting your collective scores, incorrect size circles have an impact on the rider mark for instance because you aren't delivering the test as written

Might you have the opportunity to nobble this judge one day at the end of the class for a quick word? i often see judges after the class finishes going to look at the scoreboard though accept this might be tricky under covid rules. if you were feeling really curious you could offer the venue to write for them once or twice.. it's an interesting way to figure people out. i have written for some that have their own pet phrase and give it to everyone, then you know it's either not just you, it's their hobby horse whereas sometimes you can really learn what they are looking for and the difference between the people hitting the sweet spot and those just missing it.

My trainer is highly experienced with dressage but i still get a lot out of a test riding clinic, judges do come at it from a different perspective than trainers I find, so its helpful to get a bit more time with the "other side".

eta. sometimes people don't notice it so thought I'd mention, sometimes judges underline words from the directives instead of writing them down, so you could also check that to see if it gives you more clues about how they are thinking.

thank you yes definitely other things to work on as well, maybe I’ve just been lucky in the sense that generally I’ve always tended to agree with my comments and were part of my training plan anyway that I’ve been always been able to be positive about our tests and the comments made, but this comment in the collectives really got me thinking, oh cr*p how do I get past this.
Yes if I put my brave pants on maybe I will chat to the judge but I’m on of these people that hates awkward situations so that is is pretty daunting for me to do.

 

[Bernster]

For this one, I’d want to understand what needing more cadence means - is it rhythm, expression, less speed, a moment of suspension...?! Agree ref asking, to be sure. Plenty of folks use these terms but do we all def have the same understanding of what they mean?!

maybe at the higher levels this term makes more sense?

 

[oldie48]

Just a thought as I watched a friend having a lesson today and she is now working at AM. I may have misunderstood but I got the distinct impression that although the horse was easily able to do the movements, was obedient, had good rhythm etc he just lacked the oooph to get the higher marks ie needed more engagement, more impulsion and lift and this is what the lesson focused on. To me this is what "cadence" is all about.

 

[j1ffy]

I think there are a couple of things to unpick here. One is your ambition / enjoyment in dressage and the other are the specific comments and progression.

On the ambition / enjoyment point, it's worth having a think about what you want to achieve and what you get enjoyment from in dressage. For some, it's 'perfecting' a level and qualifying for Nationals, for others it's about moving up the dressage levels and getting into a tailcoat at some point. I think it depends on both horse and rider - with my Medium horse, he was wonky and lacked cadence so was never going to be a 70% horse once we got out of Novice, but he was willing and loved half passes so there was no point banging away at Elementary. Also I love the progression and learning new things and I'm definitely no perfectionist, so getting low-medium 60s was fine given our limitations! I have other friends who will stay at a level for multiple years because they want to score the high marks and qualify - I may well be the same in future with a different horse, who knows.

On the judge's comments, MP and Bernster both make good points. I have done a few test riding clinics and recently did one with Richard Baldwin, who was excellent and really talked through each movement line-by-line. He also recorded his comments through the test and emailed them afterwards. There were obviously things that I / my trainer had picked up on but also some interesting test riding and accuracy points that hadn't occurred to me before. It was excellent and I really recommend it.

In short though, don't give up! If it was easy it wouldn't be worth it

 

[DressageCob]

I don't know how much of this is just talk and how much of it is true, but I have heard from several people that judging has been harsher recently. I can't compare, having just moved up to medium myself, but I have spoken to several people in different regions who think it has got harsher. So I wouldn't necessarily think your performance has worsened.

Judges are also human, so there will always be an element of subjectivity in it. One day a movement might be a 7, but if they are having a bad day and feeling less generous that movement might get a 6.

 

[Goldenstar]

Cadence ,the expression in the step .
Cadence develops with the impulsion and collection as the training progresses .
Many dressage bred horses have a lot of natural cadence others not so much so it has to be developed .
The step between elementary and medium is exactly where it begins to show .
You are scoring in the 60’s so satisfactory, as you make the step up this does not seem so terrible to me .
I agree with all the ideas for teasing out the issue and would add booking a lesson with the judge in question if that possible .
Having a few sessions with other trainers to open up to lots of ideas .
And honestly going back through the basics in his training to see what if anything is weaker than in should be .
Might you enjoy a break in competition to concentrate on the training and could you tweak the horses management in some way that helps, I am thinking of physio passive stretches change in working regime for instance increasing fitness by doing so fitness cantering .
I am a great one for reading when I have issues and now of course you can you YouTube where there’s lots to make you think .
Are you able to video your tests and compare them with the sheets I have been doing this with my horse who is about to start BD my trainer rides ,what fun I have telling him what they can do better ?
Enjoy the journey that’s the way to deal with these trials .
I personally think the standard of the judges is better than its ever been .

 

[splashgirl45]

as a dressage writer (not a rider at that level!!) friends have asked me why the judge marked them in a certain way when they feel their horse is going better or as good as previously. you really need to watch the rest of the class because the judge may be marking everyone low and not just you. a good judge is aware of every little mistake or incorrect bend etc where a lesser judge may miss things. i think when you get to the higher levels there are less allowances made as well. you are doing brilliantly to be competing at that level and 60% is encouraging as you are new to the level . the other things which will pick up the marks are basics, straight entry and exit square halt , movements at the correct place, shapes of circles, i cant believe how many people cant do a square halt even at GP level....

 

[milliepops]

Cadence ,the expression in the step .
Cadence develops with the impulsion and collection as the training progresses .
Many dressage bred horses have a lot of natural cadence others not so much so it has to be developed .
The step between elementary and medium is exactly where it begins to show .
You are scoring in the 60’s so satisfactory, as you make the step up this does not seem so terrible to me .
I agree with all the ideas for teasing out the issue and would add booking a lesson with the judge in question if that possible .
Having a few sessions with other trainers to open up to lots of ideas .
And honestly going back through the basics in his training to see what if anything is weaker than in should be .
Might you enjoy a break in competition to concentrate on the training and could you tweak the horses management in some way that helps, I am thinking of physio passive stretches change in working regime for instance increasing fitness by doing so fitness cantering .
I am a great one for reading when I have issues and now of course you can you YouTube where there’s lots to make you think .
Are you able to video your tests and compare them with the sheets I have been doing this with my horse who is about to start BD my trainer rides ,what fun I have telling him what they can do better ?
Enjoy the journey that’s the way to deal with these trials .
I personally think the standard of the judges is better than its ever been .

I agree with a lot of this.
I wrote for a whole bunch of different judges at the winters and found it was generally very transparent and from a riders POV also clear where the marks came from.

I agree re basics. I do find at each level it highlights things that I'd thought i was on top of but need to revisit. I've got one in the gulf between inter1 and inter2 currently and I'd considered her quite straight before.... well, turns out not straight enough so we're back on straightness bootcamp while we figure out passage. Going up a level is a useful watershed to take stock of stuff like that.

 

[Baccara]

I agrre with a lot of whats been said. Ive been getting high 60%s at M, just started AM and scraping in at 60% if Im lucky.. Most of the comments refer to lack of engine and engagement. I think at this level , it seems to me everything has to go up a gear, e.g roundness, ehgagement, accuracy clear definition between the paces etc etc Ive had to rethink my test riding and really really know the test Im riding instead of winging it. Im never going to be a threat to the 70% horses but I think we can step up to this level with a bit of hard work. So what Im trying to say OP enjoy where you are, I know I am.

 

[Littlebear]

OP if you are happy to i would post a video, you will be able to get so much helpful advice from experienced people on here that may be the light bulb moment to you need to help move forward x

 

[Muddywellies]

As mentioned above, judges have their 'thing', and they will always comment on it on your sheet. I'd just look at the bigger picture and look at what other judges are saying (or like I've done many times, not read my sheet at all ?).

I do a fair amount of writing and I absolutely promise, they won't be thinking 'Oh go away and come back after you've improved'. I bet they write you a nice comment at the bottom ?