Show jumper falls off, (minor blip) then horse turns on him

Katikins said:
Agree with others, if a horse is actually attacking then it will go with the front end. If you saw Buck, The Real Horse Whisperer... the orphan horse on there was NASTY!! They agreed to have it PTS at the end. Here is the clip of it attacking the guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7FMuIwI8vU
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This situation was quite different. Horses will choose flight over fight unless flight has been consistently blocked. The horse in the Buck video had a long history of poor handling both on a line and in a round pen, where flight had consistently been punished. In these situations, the only option left is attack, which is what happened in this case. The horse was no more nasty than any other horse, just had a long history of fear caused by poor handling.

The horse in the showjumping clip clearly had a fairly poor view of riders, but once the rider was off, there were plenty of escape routes, so the horse made sure the predator was disabled before choosing flight...
 
Brightbay said:
This situation was quite different. Horses will choose flight over fight unless flight has been consistently blocked. The horse in the Buck video had a long history of poor handling both on a line and in a round pen, where flight had consistently been punished. In these situations, the only option left is attack, which is what happened in this case. The horse was no more nasty than any other horse, just had a long history of fear caused by poor handling.

The horse in the showjumping clip clearly had a fairly poor view of riders, but once the rider was off, there were plenty of escape routes, so the horse made sure the predator was disabled before choosing flight...
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That horse in that program was spoilt... there was no fear, it was all about lack of discipline. Definitely not caused by fear.

I just linked it to give an example of what a horse looks like when it actually ATTACKS.
 
Brightbay said:
The horse in the Buck video had a long history of poor handling both on a line and in a round pen, where flight had consistently been punished. In these situations, the only option left is attack, which is what happened in this case. The horse was no more nasty than any other horse, just had a long history of fear caused by poor handling.
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The young stallion in the Buck documentary was bottle fed and had been born a dummy foal. It didn't react the way it did due to fear, it was just brain damaged and the owner did not have the knowledge or resources to deal with it (well she had the resources but chose to keep it alive).

.. but once the rider was off, there were plenty of escape routes, so the horse made sure the predator was disabled before choosing flight...
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And as is typical of horses running away from something scary, it chose the route it knew, the one it had already come.
 
I agree with everyone else, rider fell off, horse spooked and kicked out for good measure before running away. I was expecting something more too. Rider was unfortunately in the way. I bit like just falling off a horse, and one that keeps going until they get you off.

I seem to remember the horse in the Buck video had a LONG history of going for people, so it seemed to be long past the "fear = attack" and had found out that if it attacked, people would let it alone so it was setting the rules. I think it also attacked completely out of the blue too, so even more dangerous. I hope it was PTS and I couldn't see any future for it.
 
Brightbay said:
This situation was quite different. Horses will choose flight over fight unless flight has been consistently blocked. The horse in the Buck video had a long history of poor handling both on a line and in a round pen, where flight had consistently been punished. In these situations, the only option left is attack, which is what happened in this case. The horse was no more nasty than any other horse, just had a long history of fear caused by poor handling.

The horse in the showjumping clip clearly had a fairly poor view of riders, but once the rider was off, there were plenty of escape routes, so the horse made sure the predator was disabled before choosing flight...
Click to expand...
I agree with this as far as I can tell from both clips. Imho both involve fear, frustration and the horse at the end of its tolerance.
 
Katikins said:
Agree with others, if a horse is actually attacking then it will go with the front end. If you saw Buck, The Real Horse Whisperer... the orphan horse on there was NASTY!! They agreed to have it PTS at the end. Here is the clip of it attacking the guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7FMuIwI8vU
Click to expand...

I was going to post a link to this it was, I thought, a very interesting watch. I'd strongly recommend it if you can find a copy.
 
don't think the horse was spooked-although it wasn't long it didn't look happy on the approach (guys hands were heavy, horse was violently swishing tail and running through). I think the horse was sore, then the horse was p*ssed at what made it sore and was being defensive (some would run first, some not)-would be interesting to know if it were mare or gelding.

and agreed, a horse that attacks comes at you front end first-teeth and front feet.

the horse in the Buck video gives enough signs thats he's not scared IMO.
 
amandap said:
I agree with this as far as I can tell from both clips. Imho both involve fear, frustration and the horse at the end of its tolerance.
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Just to add I cant actually agree with the history bit as I don't know it. Imo the Palamino is nervous/fearful about the sheet and becomes increasingly annoyed with the bloke waving the big sheet at and on him as his signals of worry and increasing annoyance are ignored. Whatever the history that bloke wasn't reading the warning signals.
 
amandap said:
Just to add I cant actually agree with the history bit as I don't know it. Imo the Palamino is nervous/fearful about the sheet and becomes increasingly annoyed with the bloke waving the big sheet at and on him as his signals of worry and increasing annoyance are ignored. Whatever the history that bloke wasn't reading the warning signals.
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to me the pally doesn't appear worried at all-he looks increasingly frustrated at being ignored but he's not showing any of the normal 'scared' signs, however, that could be due to his upbringing and not knowing the right way to respond I guess.
 
MotherOfChickens said:
to me the pally doesn't appear worried at all-he looks increasingly frustrated at being ignored but he's not showing any of the normal 'scared' signs, however, that could be due to his upbringing and not knowing the right way to respond I guess.
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I see him trying to avoid (by moving away quickly) the sheet as fear/worry. It appears he is less frightened of, or is unaware of acceptable boundaries with humans in general due to his upbringing but tbh, any horse frustrated/annoyed to a large extent and pushed hard and randomly will eventually attack, especially if it is held on a line so can't escape.
I have seen that clip before and I still hate it for many reasons but especially as the horse didn't appear to have a clue what was going on from that approach, except the bloke kept chucking a flappy, noisy sheet at him randomly!


Imo both horses meant to kick and bite, the question for me is was it justified in the horses mind? Was it understandable horse behaviour in our minds or was it totally irrational and the horses not behaving like horses in their individual circumstances, but purely aggressively out of nowhere?
Both horrible events for the humans but also for the horses in my view.

If anyone can make sense of that you deserve a medal! lol
 
amandap said:
but tbh, any horse frustrated/annoyed to a large extent and pushed hard and randomly will eventually attack, especially if it is held on a line so can't escape.
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maybe. to me any horse on a line can escape if it wants to and the vast majority IME would try to turn its bum round-relatively few horses attack with front legs. It may well be an expression of fear but he didn't give up alot of space IMO even when being approached. The guy was not right for continuing and not right to try and sack that horse out in the first place (although sacking out is another thread lol) and am not condoning it whatsoever.

My old horse as an example, was not afraid of dogs-he really wasn't-I'd had him since 3yo and had dogs underneath us yapping when out hacking and not twitched an ear. A long time on though and various incidents led him to be totally intolerant of any dog but mine (I then I didn't trust him). To the point where if in his field, he would go for any dog with teeth and front legs-he completely meant business and there was no drama to it before or after, he just wanted that dog out. Maybe it was fear driven to a degree, but he sure didn't look scared!

interesting discussion :)
 
MotherOfChickens said:
maybe. to me any horse on a line can escape if it wants to and the vast majority IME would try to turn its bum round-relatively few horses attack with front legs. It may well be an expression of fear but he didn't give up alot of space IMO even when being approached.
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The thing is he couldn't get out of the sacks reach and the bloke didn't stop approaching. The horse was obviously trained not to break free so all he could do was circle but was still in reach.

I was just musing if the sack attack on his bum almost forced the attack by his teeth, the horse was scooting away, clamping his tail to protect his bum to no avail, the sack kept coming back, so I wonder if the front attack was all he was left with? No idea of course just wondering.

Yes, interesting.
 
I'm not sure it wasn't just freaked out because dangly stirrups/reins etc, and also, suddenly, something (the rider) on the ground. I know the horses in our lads' field get weirded out if you sit down, he might never have seen a human lying on the floor before. Also, just from what I've seen - kicking with back legs tends to be defensive - biting or using front legs is aggressive.
 
Wouldn't have that one in my yard!

I saw it more as a continuation of the nappy/naughty behaviour that started several strides before the jump. The horse didn't refuse the jump, so much as nap at it. Then it made sure the rider fell off by whipping round.

It was a reasonable size jump so obviously not a novice horse. Who knows what had happened before then, but as I say, its better to have one that helps you out than one like that...
 
Brightbay said:
Looked to me the same behaviour you'd see if a zebra managed to shake off the lion that had jumped on its back. Get the predator on the ground, and then make sure it can't come after you again.
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^^^ this^^^ horse seemed to panic when rider hit the ground and he was unhappy about something on approach to fence.
 
Heres a video of horse that really does mean it. It attacks in retaliation to people throwing rocks at it, although whether it'd already attacked someone and that was why they were throwing at it I have no idea.

It's not a nice video but I think it demonstrates just how tolerant and kind horses in general are towards humans and the things we ask them to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BW-5ISZFWM8
 
lastchancer said:
Heres a video of horse that really does mean it. It attacks in retaliation to people throwing rocks at it, although whether it'd already attacked someone and that was why they were throwing at it I have no idea.

It's not a nice video but I think it demonstrates just how tolerant and kind horses in general are towards humans and the things we ask them to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BW-5ISZFWM8
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This horse had rabies.
 
This happened to my friend in a field, she fell off , when her horse bucked her off because it wanted to gallop, then before it galloped off backed onto her and started double barrelling her!
Luckily I was there ( mounted ) to chase it off!
The horse usually had a quiet nature, and it wasn't maltreated .
Suffice to say it was sold soon after!
 
Mithras said:
Wouldn't have that one in my yard!

I saw it more as a continuation of the nappy/naughty behaviour that started several strides before the jump. The horse didn't refuse the jump, so much as nap at it. Then it made sure the rider fell off by whipping round.

It was a reasonable size jump so obviously not a novice horse. Who knows what had happened before then, but as I say, its better to have one that helps you out than one like that...
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This is exactly what I think. One wonders if it has been "dealt with" on a previous occassion for similar behaviour and having got the rider off is getting its own back.
 
legaldancer said:
This is exactly what I think. One wonders if it has been "dealt with" on a previous occassion for similar behaviour and having got the rider off is getting its own back.
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Kicking out like that is a defence mechanism - so I would guess it was expecting some kind of retribution for the stop. A horse generally attacks with front feet, defends with hinds. Bullying a horse when you want it to perform above and beyond only works to an extent in the short term - long term never. I worked with horses many years ago when "rapping" was fairly widespread, and the whole SJ world was full of stoppers. I just wonder how that horse was treated when there were no cameras around.................
 
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