Showjumping: looks like it is correct to pivot knee and swing back lower leg!

[Kokopelli]

more of a QR to the original post -

its really hard to keep the 'perfect' lower leg position over a big fence.
i've been complimented on my leg position say when schooling over small 110 fences at home but in nearly every photo i have at shows after about 135+ my leg pivots from the knee like in those photos you showed, but its when you're landing thats its important to get it back.

i really dont think that its an issue where the leg is when you're jumping bigger fences, there are more important thing to worry about. if you cant balance yourself sufficently you wouldnt be able to jump that big successfully anyway!

I don't think this unbalances the horse though as your upper body is still in the same position its when the riders throw themselves forward and unbalance the horse there is an issue.

 

[martlin]

QR
when I look at those pictures, especially in Ludger's case, the lower leg might be swinging back, but his heel is still in a nice vertical line from his hips, which says to me - in balance.
The 2 ladies, although with lower leg on the girth (or even in front) have their hips behind the vertical from heel, which to me says - slightly behind the movement, especially Meredith.

 

[pinktiger]

whilst i understand what your sayin totally<<>>>its very difficult to say how much pivoting is goin on as in each pic the rider is at a diff place over the fence, the way i see it the riders foot comes below the knee from bhind as the horse rounds over the fence so in each frame you get a different postion??!!! I think the eventers are more into secure lower legs for the xc (obv reasons). I think having the secure lower leg doesnt show in the pivoting and more in the control, in not throwing yourself up and over the horse and trailing your lower leg behind, all these pics show one common factor and i think its the' control 'and 'core' stability of that mid to lower leg not the fact that you can or cant see pivoting(or movement/swinging)!!

 

[UnaB]

Sorry gone slightly off topic! But what I'm saying is the pivot at the knee tends to come from bad riding at a young age. But as said above I don't think in any of the picture the horse and rider look unbalanced, its when the riders weight is tipped to far forward this is a problem like this :

http://www.horsehero.com/8413

Jess Mendoza (she is definatly unbalanced)

She doesnt look unbalanced to me, having seen her competing she doesnt throw her ponies off balance (that i have seen anyway). She is also one of the top young riders in the country so she must be doing something right!!

I dont have a problem with people not having a perfect technique, i know i havent got it!! The only problem i have is when they hinder the horse - jabbing in the mouth, landing heavily. You rarely see this at a top level in juniors or seniors though. Letting your leg slip back, whilst maintaining balance, is not a huge problem IMO and doesnt make them less of a rider. I'd like to see the critics here jump those fences with perfect technique

 

[flyingfeet]

Please note this thread is to look at jump position technique, not to tell the top riders how to do it!!

Another interesting things is our Brits are more like the Jessica Mendoza link:

John Whitaker from above:

My personal hero Geoff Billington is an interesting one to look at, as generally has a very secure lower leg. I'm wondering whether rider body shape and leg length (sorry Geoff!) also determines how much you need to work on the lower leg

Geoff with slight leg back :

Geoff - lovely pic

 

[MandyMoo]

to be frank... i agree that lower leg position is very important when first learning to jump and when first doing lower courses... but at that high level, it really doesn't matter!! The riders are in balance and so are the horses, they are bloomin' brilliant - so no-one on here can critisise. I think when an amateur's lower leg is swung backwards over smaller fences, their upper body tends to be thrown forwards as well = unbalanced, but these high level riders upper bodies are perfectly balanced, and so it doesn't matter what their lower leg does!

BUT i do have to agree on what Kokopelli and Marmalade76 have to say about young pony riders... they are given these brilliant ponies that 'do the job for them' - and then after they've done amazingly well on ponies, they're never heard of again on horses as they simply don't have the skill/balance to ride horses at high level.

 

[Kokopelli]

I agree that body shape probably helps, I bet if you have super long legs its hard to have the "perfect position" (Iwouldn't know )

I think Geoff has a very good position and it could be because of his height

 

[UnaB]

Love that second pic of Geoff!!

He is not a rider I really enjoy watching jump i have to admit, he always looks a bit untidy, kind of like Mary King cross country. BUT, like Mary King, he gets the best out of the horses and gets the job done so i dont think he (or she) is causing any problems for the horse.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

Geoff - lovely pic

THAT is an ACE pic!!!!!

Love Geoff hes sooo normal lol!!!

Nikki xxx

 

[flyingfeet]

Actually I was implying for the rounder short legged rider, we have to work much harder to be balanced than the longer legs of someone like Ludger!

In jumping position mine aren't that far below the saddle flaps, and I think someone with longer legs has a natural advantage in terms of balance!

 

[UnaB]

Actually I was implying for the rounder short legged rider, we have to work much harder to be balanced than the longer legs of someone like Ludger!

In jumping position mine aren't that far below the saddle flaps, and I think someone with longer legs has a natural advantage in terms of balance!

My SJ instructor actually said the very same thing to me years ago when i used to compete. She was very tall and slim with long legs, i am not so tall, not so slim and have quite short legs. She said i would have to work more on my balance than someone with her body shape. It wasnt an issue as its something i had adapted to in my daily riding anyway, but it is something to bear in mind.

Maybe thats why i never had pivotted knees on my 12.2s and 13.2s lol!

 

[amage]

Bottom two are American riders with extensive years of Equitation training hence the solid lower leg position!

 

[pollypocket1]

I think LEC is right in what she says about American riders.

If you look at Hunter/Jumper and Eq riders most of them have very secure lower leg positions, and this is taught to them as soon as they learn to ride (in these disciplines).

The ideal jumping position for these disciplines is to have heels down (way down! lol), a lower leg that stays at the girth and a breakover that has about 4-5 inches between your chest and the horses neck.

I guess that as they are taught to ride like this from when they start learining to ride that it becomes easier to keep their lower leg position over the higher fences.

I appologise if any of this is incorrect, this is just my opinion and what I have picked up from speaking to people who ride in these disciplines.

 

[JVB]

Eek, I hope that really isn't the case for tall riders as otherwise I've no excuse. I'm tall with most of leg length in thigh and my leg swings back over bigger fences, trying to correct it but only managing so far over smaller fences and it can on occasion mean I get left behing slightly

 

[martlin]

Hmm, I would say that a short, stumpy (sorry Geoff) lower leg is easier to keep vertical... Ludger Beerbaum is very tall with awfully long legs, to fit onto a horse, those legs need to be seriously folded, if his lower leg was to stay vertical, his backside would be behind the saddle

 

[kerilli]

Hmm, I would say that a short, stumpy (sorry Geoff) lower leg is easier to keep vertical... Ludger Beerbaum is very tall with awfully long legs, to fit onto a horse, those legs need to be seriously folded, if his lower leg was to stay vertical, his backside would be behind the saddle

Hmm, i doubt he's taller or longer in the leg than William Fox Pitt, and he manages without swinging his lower leg right back. Good pic at:

http://www.morethanthegames.co.uk/files/morethanthegames/foxpitt.jpg

 

[natalia]

If your jumping double clears and having a good time who gives a stuff what you do over the fence?!

 

[martlin]

Hmm, i doubt he's taller or longer in the leg than William Fox Pitt, and he manages without swinging his lower leg right back. Good pic at:

http://www.morethanthegames.co.uk/files/morethanthegames/foxpitt.jpg

Actually, in this picture WFP's lower leg IS behind the girth if it was on the girth he would be unbalanced.
Also, it's a picture of take off with the horse's hinds not very far off the ground.
Another thing worth noting is how high WFP's bottom (I'm not sure one should talk about such things) is in relation to the saddle.
WFP's legs do require serious folding as well, I get the impression from the photos that LB is shorter in the thigh though, so more 'folding' goes on below the knee.

ETS: without wishing to be rude or not appreciative of difficulty, the jump WFP is jumping is smaller (as in lower) than any of the SJ pictures shown before.

 

[kerilli]

UnaB, I think there are advantages and disadvantages - shorter riders can look very neat more easily, tall leggy riders can look rather messy unless they are very stylish imho.

 

[Saratoga]

Every picture is a moment in time, i suppose all riders have good and bad pics where their legs do what they please...

http://www2.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Badminton+Horse+Trials+Day+Four+EMrQ4l1FuHWl.jpg

I actually think it's harder for a much longer leg to be folded up and stay in balance, the same as it's harder for someone with very short legs and more top heavy, than someone who is perfectly in proportion.

 

[martlin]

Franke Sloothaak, he's just under 6'6'', in near damn perfect balance:
http://www.equiweb.it/photogallery/images/big/1194872023-franke-sloothaak.jpg

 

[kerilli]

Actually, in this picture WFP's lower leg IS behind the girth if it was on the girth he would be unbalanced.
Also, it's a picture of take off with the horse's hinds not very far off the ground.
Another thing worth noting is how high WFP's bottom (I'm not sure one should talk about such things) is in relation to the saddle.
WFP's legs do require serious folding as well, I get the impression from the photos that LB is shorter in the thigh though, so more 'folding' goes on below the knee.

ETS: without wishing to be rude or not appreciative of difficulty, the jump WFP is jumping is smaller (as in lower) than any of the SJ pictures shown before.

Umm, his lower leg is, say, 6" behind the girth, which is why I said "without swinging it right back" - it's not as far back as the sjers - except for the American ladies.
Yes, it's a smaller fence than the sjers are jumping, not sure how much effect that would have.

 

[martlin]

Umm, his lower leg is, say, 6" behind the girth, which is why I said "without swinging it right back" - it's not as far back as the sjers - except for the American ladies.
Yes, it's a smaller fence than the sjers are jumping, not sure how much effect that would have.

I'm just musing here not arguing or anything
I *think* the height of the jump has a lot to do with it tbh, as the higher the jump, the more vertical the horse's body on take off... So, if we take somebody else's post that your stirrups should be your ground and if you took the horse out of the picture rider should stay the right way up, the only logical solution is your lower leg going further back from the girth the bigger the fence gets.
I'm not sure how clear what I mean is, I'm starting to confuse myself here

Also, if you compare 2 pictures - WFP you posted and the one of FS I have, is Franke straightened his thigh he would be in pretty much identical position as WFP.

 

[dominobrown]

???
Harvey Smith's style!

 

[Rambo]

There are basically two distinct styles of jumping....one is the 'light' seat whereby the rider balances using a combination of stirrups / knees and the bum barely touches the saddle. In this style the stirrups are used to 'push off' on take-off and as such the stirrup leather tends to stay vertical to the ground. The bigger the fence, and hence the steeper the angle the horse has to jump up, then the more the lower leg appears to be behind the girth. Often as not in this style, the speed in which the horse propels itself up and over the fence is so great that the lower leg doesn't have time to return to 'normal' whilst at the height of the bascule....but as the horse returns to earth, usually the lower leg position returns too....the opposite effect of the take-off.

The second style of jumping is that whereby the riders bum is pretty much in contact with the saddle at all times...and hence the main factor in retaining balance is the bum on saddle, combined with legs gripping the horses sides. In this style the bum rarely leaves the saddle by more than a couple of inches and as balance is obtained from different sources there is no need to use the stirrups as a baseline.

Personally i prefer the light seat approach to the latter.....and many of the greatest SJ'ers in the world are exponents of this style (as we've seen from the pictures above)....one of the greatest to watch displaying this technique is Nick Skelton...who, if you watch a round carefully, will probably see that his bum never touches the saddle for the duration of the time the horse is in canter.

 

[marmalade76]

Being in balance has nothing to do with keeping the leg on the girth. To be in balance your heel must be in line with your hip, wherever it happens to be.

 

[viola]

As far as the balance vs body shape goes I think the proportions are more important when in the saddle. Riders with long legs but short upper body can "find" their centre of gravity easier than riders with short legs and long upper body (when sat on a moving object).

As to the lower leg position, I only show-jumped to 1.30m as a junior and young rider so don't want to speculate about the feel over 1.60m fences BUT every time my lower leg was underneath me the feel was amazing: of total oneness with the horse. If my leg zoomed back, even if I was clear and within the time the feeling of the actual jump wasn't the same.

I personally prefer the American style lower leg but Franke Sloothak has always been my SJ hero - he might not have the lower leg right alongside the girth but he is always in balance (heel under hip).

Other thing I noticed: my leg always stays in a better position on horses that are quick off the floor. The "slow" jumpers (those taking their time on the take off and landing) were always more difficult for me to synchronise with.

Style in between the fences matters a lot too - if you're in the light seat on the approach it's much easier to maintain the "on the girth" lower leg. I think this also has a lot to do with how hot the horse is. The horse that need a kick or more in front of the jump might make you go back into deeper seat and leg further back on the take off. The horse that is hot to a fence lets you travel without much lower leg action which lets you focus on your balance more.

 

[Bearskin]

Lec is right re the American riders. It is drilled into them. If you watch the two in the photos above in action you will see them make an extra effort to push the heel down/lower leg forward when in the air. Would be interesting to see photos of them on approach, take off, mid-air and landing too.

A lot depends on the size of the fences too. I think that if you had the perfect, vertical shoulder/knee/ball of foot alignment during all phases of jumping a 1.60m fence, you may get a bit left behind at some point?

Perhaps eventers are able to adopt the more classic position as the fences are smaller (and we tend to jump faster and flatter!)

Also, if you look at the photo of Frankie above he has perfect shoulder/knee/foot alignment, just at a different angle, one more suited to jumping big jumps ie going with the horse. The American riders go more with the shoulder/knee/heel position.

 

[siennamum]

I think SJers rarely worry about lower leg, so long as they are effective. It's a peculiar event rider obsession and a recent one IMO, whilst it looks prettier, as often as not event riders are left behind the movement - which would be far less helpful to the horse when jumping large fences.

I think SJers have evolved the style in part because they jump ponies -often worrying their feet will hit the poles. I started jumping ponies 40 years ago and was never once told to have a tidy lower leg & I had top SJ & eventing trainers. My lower leg swings straight back even now & I really don't sweat about it.

 

[TarrSteps]

Both the American girls were Eq stars so yes, they not only represent a system, they're very successful proponents of it.

The other riders were brought up in a different system. And while they don't have Eq classes per se, they do have a system of tests and instruction that's very codified, which is why so many of them ride so similarly. (No criticism, but the UK doesn't really seem to have either route so you see many more individual styles in the general population. That said, younger riders at the top end seem increasingly to reflect one or the other, depending on their dominant influences.)

Rather like the classical schools of dressage, neither school is "right" or "wrong", they're just different and have evolved to meet specific demands of horses, culture, courses etc. Increasingly, though, many more top riders seem to have a more "international" style and/or can adapt their styles to whatever they're riding.