showjumping with a high head carriage

[Danindigo]

Lazy over a fence - how was he hitting them? In front, or behind? Consistently, or varying? If he hit it once, did he make more effort next time? What shape was he making, did he bascule? Any pics/vids? How big were the fences, and what sort of shape? Certain types help a horse to throw a specific jump, obviously.

maybe sluggish would describe it better? no so much hitting them - just no real effort being made. i did a x pole to strat winding it up to the top hole x. after that made it an upright with ground pole, then an ascending spread - nothing more than 85cms i guess.

 

[SpottedCat]

Does your trainer have any ideas? This kind of issue can be caused by so many things, a good set of eyes on the ground are essential.

One thing I would say is that in a lot of the pictures your hands are quite fixed on the base of the neck (easy to end up doing if the horse is running), and that often causes a hollow jump because they can't use their back properly. He looks like a nice, bold horse who keeps trying even when he is getting in very deep!

 

[kerilli]

maybe sluggish would describe it better? no so much hitting them - just no real effort being made. i did a x pole to strat winding it up to the top hole x. after that made it an upright with ground pole, then an ascending spread - nothing more than 85cms i guess.

You were loose jumping him over a high X?
Gosh, if so, he is very very brave and honest then.

Firstly, 85cm is hardly worth a decent jump... until it gets to elbow height they don't have to make much effort, maybe he's just smart!
I suspect that, loose jumping, if you do the small fence to perfect distance to larger fence exercise, you will see him start to operate.
I absolutely think you need someone good on the ground to help you both though. You are looking down in nearly every picture, which doesn't help either of you, and I agree about giving him more rein in the air to encourage him to use his back and neck more.
I re-read and saw you're using a jointed pelham, I'd definitely try a rubber pelham for a bit, I think it would prob help a lot.

 

[TarrSteps]

I would have to agree with SC - he does look very tight and short in his neck, which will make it hard for him to rotate his shoulder and use his front end well. Combined with often being a bit hollow in his back off the ground - which often causes rails behind.

Do you jump in that bit all the time? What about working on some grids in a snaffle, really thinking about your position and the shape he is making over a fence? A good jumping trainer should be able to help you educate him a bit more, which might help him relax and let you ride him more softly, which would help you both relax. . .and so on. . .

He looks a bold, scope sort, not really lazy and disinterested. The right help on the ground should help you find the key to him.

 

[kirstykate]

trot poles (4/5)- 3yds – x pole 3.5yds upright 6.5yds upright and 7 yds out over an oxer main thing is slow approaches and let poles do work. Re the loose jumping you should be jumping at least 3'6". This should help. On your approach keep your hands low and try to keep him in trot.

 

[Santa_Claus]

Ok I am going to be blunt but you have asked for help so here goes.

A high head carriage isn't actually a problem in itself when jumping as a horse has a blind spot directly ahead so by raising their heads they are actually able to see the fence. When they are 'on the bit' they actually can't see the fence at all. This is of course on the presumption you are not having your teeth knocked out!

My horse looking at your photos has a very similar head carriage but because we maintain a rhythm into a fence (normally!) this is not a problem and she happily jumps 1m10+ tracks with ease.

Looking at the photos I am going to make a few presumptions (which you may have already confirmed/denied but not read everything in detail sorry!) and see if they are right!

1) when ridden he is strong into the fence especially after he raises his head?
2) You struggle to keep him back and end up having a battle in the fence especially last 4/5 strides normally resulting in a deep stride
3) has poles down infront and behind.

You mention he was fine comparatively when loose schooled. To me combined with the photos as 'evidence' (a video would be fantastic though) the problem is two fold, your horse is green and you are having battles with him and therefore not allowing him to jump off a good stride and in a natural frame. In all the jumping photos your hands are buried in his withers i suspect from trying to hold him back from the fence and then not having time to release. Because your hands are not giving he is not able to bascule over the fence which restricts him through his neck back and shoulders meaning he will jump flat and loose with his legs resulting in the regular poles being hit.

Have you had anyone else ride him? I would be interested to see what he would do with a different rider, namely could they keep the canter rhythm and therefore allow him (and them) to see a good stride in to the fence.

I'm not saying you're a bad rider but that at the moment your riding style and his behaviour are conflicting. You may find simply giving with your hands over the fence allow him to go 'ok i can stretch' will then settle the canter beforehand. Or it may be a case of having to sort that canter first over poles on the ground until he doesn't fight you then rising up into jumps so that then you can teach him to keep a balanced canter which will then allow you to see a good stride in to the fence give your hands and allow him to bascule.

It is very easy to preach about what needs to be done from a description and some photos and I don't profess to say I am 100% right but all the tell tale signs are there.

I would hope though that these are all things you are working with with your instructor already? what have they suggested? have they ridden him?

 

[Danindigo]

Does your trainer have any ideas? This kind of issue can be caused by so many things, a good set of eyes on the ground are essential.

One thing I would say is that in a lot of the pictures your hands are quite fixed on the base of the neck (easy to end up doing if the horse is running), and that often causes a hollow jump because they can't use their back properly. He looks like a nice, bold horse who keeps trying even when he is getting in very deep!

thanks. my trainer has said that basically he doesnt think he will do what i want him to do. he doesnt think he helps me enough as hes all sort of let me at it coming to a fence & then once he gets there falls in a heap. My instructor is a pro event rider who rode at greenwich for example & maybe he's right but al thats done is made me more determined to work at it!!

i totally agree about my hands & it is something i work on but when nice and relaxed and then all of a sudden launches towards the fence it hard not to!!

 

[kirstykate]

thanks. my trainer has said that basically he doesnt think he will do what i want him to do. he doesnt think he helps me enough as hes all sort of let me at it coming to a fence & then once he gets there falls in a heap. My instructor is a pro event rider who rode at greenwich for example & maybe he's right but al thats done is made me more determined to work at it!!

i totally agree about my hands & it is something i work on but when nice and relaxed and then all of a sudden launches towards the fence it hard not to!!

Try a few sessions with a Show Jumping Pro I think you might be quiet surprised

 

[Danindigo]

I would have to agree with SC - he does look very tight and short in his neck, which will make it hard for him to rotate his shoulder and use his front end well. Combined with often being a bit hollow in his back off the ground - which often causes rails behind.

Do you jump in that bit all the time? What about working on some grids in a snaffle, really thinking about your position and the shape he is making over a fence? A good jumping trainer should be able to help you educate him a bit more, which might help him relax and let you ride him more softly, which would help you both relax. . .and so on. . .

He looks a bold, scope sort, not really lazy and disinterested. The right help on the ground should help you find the key to him.

he is tight/short in his neck - thats part the reason my head gets so close to his when folding!

12 months ago i was using a waterford but from lesson etc i started to use a full cheek snaffle and i used this for his xc schooling and indeed his 1st event at kelsall but felt i needed something he would respect a it more as he didnt listen when i needed him to. i then went on to use this pelham and at home it felt better when jumping on the grass. im v. much one to keep it as simple as poss with tack (my other tb ex-racehorse) event in eggbut snaffle no problem) but dont mind trying new things because as ive said before i DO have faith in him - just need to find the key to both of us.

 

[dianchi]

12 years having my mare and training and doing everything suggested made no difference to her. I jump her in a elasticated standing martingale and let her get on with it.

 

[Danindigo]

Try a few sessions with a Show Jumping Pro I think you might be quiet surprised

does anyone have any reccomendations for one who might fit the bill in the staffordshire area? im near to Eland Lodge & FieldHouse if that helps??

 

[kirstykate]

does anyone have any reccomendations for one who might fit the bill in the staffordshire area? im near to Eland Lodge & FieldHouse if that helps??

Would you be prepared to travel to Solihul?

 

[kirstykate]

I have pm'd you

 

[Countrychic]

If it was me after Looking at the pictures I think my showjumping trainer would probably tell me
Use a softer bit and either an elastic standing or MH and practise over poles working on a quality canter. Often horses dive because the canter is too weak. I think you need to give more with your hands and not weigh the shoulders down so much with your body.
I would agree a good show jumper would probably help a lot. I had one very similar to yours, only difference is she wasn't as genuine and would often stop. Even though she was really strong she went best in a straight nathe snaffle, MH and sheepskin noseband

 

[avthechav]

I am gonna add my two pennies worth now as well! I had several lessons from Bill Levett with my ex racer. She didnt have the high head carriage but she was very careless with poles although annoyingly athletic so it defo wasnt down to lack of ability. He said that basically when they are approaching at speed they do not have the time to think properly about how to get their legs out of the way, added to this by the time the realise that they have hit the fence they are long gone and so dont always make the connection. He really got me working on the canter- my job was to make sure that the canter was as ppwerful as possible but not fast. Luckily Av was scopey and so this was fairly easy to improve. He then had me coming into fences slowly but powerfully, this gave Av time to think about what she was doing and get her legs out of the way. She really started to use her back and bascule and her whole technique improved as a result. Before this she just used to use her speed to thrown herself over from whatever point she happened to arrive at the fence at.

So I would advise lots of trotting into fences combined with improving the canter on the flat. Introduce cantering into fences only when they are asking you to canter by putting in a proper transition and slowly popping into canter. I found with Av that she would still then drop back to trot on occasion to give herself enough time to work out what to do. Eventually you will be cantering more than trotting and that canter will be improved from work on the flat, and your horse will have time to think about what he is doing. This approach may not be right for your horse but I cannot tell you the difference it made to us. We went from hitting pretty much every fence SJ to just having the odd pole upto 1m. Good luck

 

[TarrSteps]

Good advice from atc.

I really do think we have to find a different word than 'careless' though. That denotes a horse that jumps well and is ridable but occasionally, when the chips are down, will tap the rail out. A lot of good event horses are a bit this way as it's part of what makes them bold xc. They also often make good horses for less experienced riders as they have the rail rather than stop.

Horses that don't jump well, they're struggling and, as above, often have no idea why they are having rails or what to do about it.

 

[avthechav]

Good advice from atc.

I really do think we have to find a different word than 'careless' though. That denotes a horse that jumps well and is ridable but occasionally, when the chips are down, will tap the rail out. A lot of good event horses are a bit this way as it's part of what makes them bold xc. They also often make good horses for less experienced riders as they have the rail rather than stop.

Horses that don't jump well, they're struggling and, as above, often have no idea why they are having rails or what to do about it.

Yes completely agree. Av would pretty much always go (sometimes to her detriment), but would have a pole in moments of doubt. My current horse is a lovely and very talented KWPN cross who hates touching a pole and if in doubt will stop. I find him much harder to jump although his technique is 1 million times better.

 

[Firewell]

He is a BEAUTIFUL horse! I think like the others have said you need to go back to basics with pole work and building up to jumping courses and giving him time to learn. Also sometimes popping the odd small fence in the middle of dressage sessions can help, so jumping a fence becomes part of schooling.
If he was mine i'd put him in a mild bit, he does look worried and he could be panicking and running against the bit, stronger bits may make it worse. He also looks the same in the XC photos...
My horse is an ex-racer and as crazy as it sounds he could not gallop. He would just run, get unbalanced and onto his forehand and take off! I was worried thinking he would be way too strong XC. He was fine in the arena so I started doing dressage in the fields, he could barely support himself cantering on a circle when the ground was rough. I just took it really slow basically teaching him how to balance himself cantering and then taught him to go up gears in canter, without running but moving into the contact, if he started to get too fast and pull i'd bring him back a notch untill he was balanced and then ask him to move on again.. He just had no clue! He could do a slow *pretty* dressage canter or flat out unbalanced gallop, nothing inbetween.
The thing is my horse isn't actually strong at all and now he knows how to gallop he goes XC in a snaffle, is much better jumping on grass and is super responsive.
Also is he ok physically? Might be worth just getting him checked just in case. Mine is a bit sore in his shoulders from a saddle that stopped fitting properly and that has caused him to try and rush the last couple of strides into a fence on the right rein.
Good luck he is so gorgeous and I know a bit of what you are going through .

 

[Danindigo]

so i thought i would post an update.

as i knew i had a dressage comp with him this weekend ive been working on that during the week rather than jumping but what i did do is have some poles out in the middle of the arena to mix in with my flatwork. i had them wide enough to use them as short canter poles so i could mix it up a bit & basically just used them now and again most days when schooling. first off he was great no change is speed etc and nice and bouncy over them in canter but as the week progressed he got more forward into them - still bouncy over them though and didnt raise his head going in to them. ill move them about this week so its something different for him to look at again.

the dressage went well too - winning with 71.4% !!!