SI Damage - is this behaviour symptomatic of the 'end'

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PercyMum

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Have posted on here a bit about my problematic ISH but now things have turned slightly odder. Long story short, bought horse, got it home, bit of a nightmare. Gave him a few week to settle - nothing, still a total nutter. Contacted previous owner and she had long gone, bloods were tested and had bute traces in. You live and learn. Anyway, worked him through some of it until after 6 months he went totally crazy and knocked me unconscious. Full vet work up revealed KS and SI changes. Decided to PTS. Got to PTS date, vet and I not comfortable doing it as he looked fine and healthy as a field ornament. Fast forward 9 months, he is being a total loon and has no traces of pain so we decide to tentatively get back on. Went AMAZINGLY well for about 6 months. Then we had a catalogue of issues with saddles, feet etc and he has been out of 'proper' work since Dec-ish.

He has had the all clear and no signs of pain so I get back on (about 3 weeks ago) - turns into demon horse from hell and has me off in a violent manner. Ok, I think, lets try some gentle lunging instead; perhaps
I took things too fast. W/T is amazing; swinging through back and amazing overtrack. As soon as I ask for canter, he goes to do the transition then stops dead, rears and p*sses off. Clearly there is something wrong but there is no soreness, lameness or anything else to go on. Vet and physio stumped - there is a little soreness after he does this but that's due to him not being in work then behaving like a loon. He goes nuts ut thats not really 'him' if that makes sense. I've tried loose schooling and I don't get the rearing so much but instead he goes of like a thing possessed. AT the back of my mind is that the vet said something about changes in the neck and I am worried that he could be going down the Wobbler route as some of his behaviors are similar to my mare that had this.

He can of course retire and be a field ornament but I am concerned that at 10, he will be very bored for a very long time and that he isn't actually as comfortable as he appears. In the files as I look at him now, he looks absolutely incredible - muscled and well covered. He is the sweetest horse you could ever hope to meet but he is incredibly spooky so I can't even try and plod him gently on a hack (he is a liability to hack anyway). I want to do whats best for him but I am at a loss and the vet won't really commit to anything.

Can I please ask for your thoughts? Do I try and push him through it? Give up and let him retire? Or (gulp) consider PTS as he may get worse? If I am really honest, he scared me and I cannot predict what he will do. I have 2 other horses who are lively enough and not at all push button but I never feel worried on ether of them but something about this one is worrying me and yet I cannot put my finger on what it is.

Thanks in advance.
 
oh dear what a worrying situation.

Percymum, has he cantered ok when ridden since the SI issues were first diagnosed? Could he have lost some muscle with the layoff since you first began riding again and maybe now putting more stress on his SI area because of that?

Any chance it could be ulcers? Might be worth checking for those esp if he is also spooky - I have known them be related to long term pain too so could be a possibility? (Though not sure why he would have been ok before and less so now, but they are weird things)

Really hope you get an answer and that it is a positive one x
 
With my KS horse the canter is the hardest for him, my vet says it is where the horse has the most trouble compensating for back problems. I could probably walk and trot him as he really lifts his back and engages but I couldn't push through canter problems (not unless I wanted to go into orbit for any reason) because he just couldn't do it - he retired at 14 and is 21 now. It is such a shame all round. Could you have a chat to the vet?
 
A few things come to mind, firstly after several months off it seems very quick to be even thinking of cantering a horse with known issues, I would be walking for at least a few weeks before trotting with cantering after two months to give him and you a chance of getting through the issues.
If he would hack that would help but if it is not an option could you long rein him a bit to get him out in straight lines, which may be more beneficial than being in the school all the time.

What I would do is give him a slow steady build up over the next 3 months and reassess, if he is still difficult probably turn away until I felt it fair to consider pts rather than rush and think "what if", they don't know what is happening but your main priority must be to stay safe yourself, if he really scares you then maybe just turn away and leave him, you have others to enjoy.
 
I couldn't read this and go without posting... even though I don't really have any insightful advice for you.

It sounds like you really love your horse and are doing your utmost for him. It is sad he is having such trouble at such a young age.

If he were mine and I could afford to keep him as a field ornament that is what I would do. Things may be different a good 18 months down the line... one way or another. And if finances aren't an issue then you don't have anything to lose.

When my mare was unable to be ridden for most of last year I really enjoyed taking her for in hand walks in the hills. It was like having an oversized dog! I just had to get it straight in my head that I would not be riding, but I could do other stuff. I loved the time we spent together... but then I was very lucky to be in a position to have lots of free time to do this, and she was essentially just a giant pet.. well, she still is!

I really don't believe she was bored being a field ornament.. I am not sure horses are that bothered about those matters the way us humans are.

Anyway, just want to wish you all the best. I am sure there are very knowledgeable people on here that will have some good advice for you.

xx
 
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Well I'd say exactly what diagnostics were done on the horse previously? Has he had a bone scan etc?

Secondly how much money can you afford to spend on further diagnostics or want to?
 
charterline said:
Well I'd say exactly what diagnostics were done on the horse previously? Has he had a bone scan etc?

Mine was similar, has a neck problem. If you have insurance or can afford it get a bone scan at a hospital. Has taken a while and ££ but mine is going really well now, better than I imagined.
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Thanks all. He has had a full set of xrays and bone scan; this showed uptake over the wither area, under the saddle and in his SI. Fairly substantial return as well hence original PTS decision. I hasten to add that the choice to get back on him was made following discussions with the vet and the physio whilst looking at the horse, so I have not just cracked on regardless and ignored any kind of warnings. He is no longer insured due to the original diagnosis and the 10k vets cover was gone a long time ago. Clearly, I would not see my horse in discomfort but I am reluctant to go down further investigative routes when he has been through so much already.

I perhaps wasn't quite clear in my original post about working him; he has been in rehab-ish work since Dec. By proper 'work' I meant not training and out competing - I'm not an evil mummy who just plonked a saddle on and started schooling :o). I think he has had enough time to get enough muscle to canter but seems unable to do so without the violent reaction. Can't walk out in hand as he is so wired and is a danger to himself and others. Vet can't explain it as she thinks if it was SI, he wouldn't rear bolt upright like he does as that would (in theory) really hurt.

I may just go back to the basics again but when I got on last week, just getting on caused a cacophony of bucking and rearing and me in A&E again. Got back on the next day and.... nothing. We even did a bit of trot and he was amazing. Gave him a day off, back on the lunge, he spooked at something, went to tank off and stopped dead and reared. Its just so odd. Doesn't do it out playing in the field though so could it be in his head? And if it is, how do I get him through this? One other thing, he is more spooky when he is sore, or something isn't right (saddle etc). The rearing doesn't come across as spooky, more panicky. BUT ABOUT WHAT???!!! Gah... any ideas at all? I've even wondered about an animal communicator to see if that can shed any light!
 
I know this may sound off the wall and be completely irrelevant, but a lot of what you're describing sounds symptomatic of severe head shaking. Obviously, you'd have to see if the more minor symptoms fit, but I have a gelding who's currently undergoing diagnostics, and there are quite a few symptoms that you wouldn't automatically associate with that sort of illness. Mine is essentially unrideable now, but stopping, bucking, panicky rearing, being wired in hand, having extreme reactions to upping the ante when working... If he throws his head around a lot, it might be worth looking into. I also have a feeling that somewhere in the research I've been doing, it mentioned a link in many cases of head shaking with sacroiliac problems.
 
JJS said:
I know this may sound off the wall and be completely irrelevant, but a lot of what you're describing sounds symptomatic of severe head shaking. Obviously, you'd have to see if the more minor symptoms fit, but I have a gelding who's currently undergoing diagnostics, and there are quite a few symptoms that you wouldn't automatically associate with that sort of illness. Mine is essentially unrideable now, but stopping, bucking, panicky rearing, being wired in hand, having extreme reactions to upping the ante when working... If he throws his head around a lot, it might be worth looking into. I also have a feeling that somewhere in the research I've been doing, it mentioned a link in many cases of head shaking with sacroiliac problems.
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That's really interesting - he does do this weird head shaking thing, like he is nodding?? Is that what your boy does? We just assumed it was a quirk of his, as there is no real pattern to when he does it. I'd be really interested in any links you might have found, if you would be happy to share them? I'm willing to look into everything, if only to make sure he is comfortable; I'd like to ride him again but his QOL is most important.
 
Sorry to hear about the issues you are having. My boy has KS, SI and hock issues. Have you had any medicated? My boy reverts to the rearing and grumpiness when the steroids wear off. There is a man called Rob Jackson, the horseback vet who people have had amazing results with. It's a hard decision for you, I have decided that when the steroids no longer work, and if he isn't happy hacking anymore, then my vets have said if they feel morally the time is right they will say and we will have my lad pts. So for now making the most of every day. We do have our own land, so could keep him as a field ornament, but he just wouldn't be happy or safe being one. He had 6 months off last year and turned into a loon! Wishing you the best of luck x
 
Have the hind legs been looked at at all, apart from a bony point of view? I'd maybe want to look at at the soft tissue. Asking as I have ridden one similar showed good work in walk and trot, but canter unravelled fast. Difficult behaviour, leaping, kicking out, napping... Suspensory issues go hand in hand with SI pain etc, so might be worth some investigation? if it's bilateral it won't necessarily be noticeable without a nerve block.
 
He had kissing spines?

Surely he still has kissing spines? The behaviour screams it. Was he x rayed before putting him back into work?


PS there seem to be a lot of people with vets reluctant to put horses down. Just in case some people don't realise, nobody needs a vet's permission to put a horse down unless you will only have it done by injection.
 
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ycbm said:
He had kissing spines?

Surely he still has kissing spines? The behaviour screams it. Was he x rayed before putting him back into work?


PS there seem to be a lot of people with vets reluctant to put horses down. Just in case some people don't realise, nobody needs a vet's permission to put a horse down unless you will only have it done by injection.
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Glad you clarified that!
Vets look on some horses as cash cows! They dont earn so much out of dead ones.
Dont think I would waste any more money on the horse as I think you know realistically its unlikely he will ever come right.
 
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PercyMum said:
That's really interesting - he does do this weird head shaking thing, like he is nodding?? Is that what your boy does? We just assumed it was a quirk of his, as there is no real pattern to when he does it. I'd be really interested in any links you might have found, if you would be happy to share them? I'm willing to look into everything, if only to make sure he is comfortable; I'd like to ride him again but his QOL is most importantt.
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Yes, it's like nodding, and it can be so hard to put your finger on any specific triggers. We also started off thinking that it was a quirk, as it wasn't seasonal and didn't have any obvious cause.
Like you, QOL is my main concern, so I'm looking at retiring my gelding at rising eight 😢
I'm away for the day, but I'll see if I can dig up any links that you might find helpful this evening.
 
Couldn't read and run as I have worked with a few horses with SI issues over the years. Does he canter comfortably in the field? Or is he either very reluctant to or charging about like a hooligan?

The reality is that if he isn't coping with the canter then he is either still in pain or has a very strong memory of pain. You have two options - keep chasing the rainbow and hope you find the pot of gold at the end by sending him away to someone who has the confidence to work through the issues which at that point will get better or noticeably worse quickly, which means more cost and potentially a lot more heartache. Or sadly retire/PTS.

All the ones I have known and worked with have come back well from SI issues, but there were no other underlying issues (all occurred as a result of a known injury which was treated immediately) and were very carefully rehabbed over a period of about a year including daily physio, massage rugs etc. They were initially on box-rest and then walking and ridden work until they have built up enough strength and the injury had healed. BUT they were not turned out during this time for risk of further damage and you need a vet who knows and understand how to do this work to be truly successful. It is costly and time consuming with no guaranteed result if there are other issues such as KS going on - so think very carefully about this before you go this route. It is not one you can short cut and it sounds like it might be too late for him anyway as this problem looks like it preceded you buying him.

I am so sorry, but I know if it were me - even with the land to retire on - I would PTS as I know just how difficult these issues can be to treat and retirement is often not the kindest thing to do in these instances.
 
I think the vet might be onto something with the neck, my flatwork instructor had a young warmblood who stopped being able to make the transition to canter on a circle- he was diagnosed with arthritis in his neck - in trot he looked fab, was a proper floaty dressage horse!

He went to a hacking home where he was out 24/7 (in a lot before) and that lifestyle seemed to suit him (head down, hacked on long rein) and he did go back to doing some dressage.

I think with yours at the end of the day there is something wrong, probably something that makes him uncomfortable to start and then when he does too much/spooks etc really hurts, and has been for some time given that he was buted before sale.
Is he on bute atm? could you bute trial him? I think I'd be tempted to throw him in the field for the summer and then make a decision.
 
PercyMum said:
Have posted on here a bit about my problematic ISH but now things have turned slightly odder. Long story short, bought horse, got it home, bit of a nightmare. Gave him a few week to settle - nothing, still a total nutter. Contacted previous owner and she had long gone, bloods were tested and had bute traces in. You live and learn. Anyway, worked him through some of it until after 6 months he went totally crazy and knocked me unconscious. Full vet work up revealed KS and SI changes. Decided to PTS. Got to PTS date, vet and I not comfortable doing it as he looked fine and healthy as a field ornament. Fast forward 9 months, he is being a total loon and has no traces of pain so we decide to tentatively get back on. Went AMAZINGLY well for about 6 months. Then we had a catalogue of issues with saddles, feet etc and he has been out of 'proper' work since Dec-ish.

He has had the all clear and no signs of pain so I get back on (about 3 weeks ago) - turns into demon horse from hell and has me off in a violent manner. Ok, I think, lets try some gentle lunging instead; perhaps
I took things too fast. W/T is amazing; swinging through back and amazing overtrack. As soon as I ask for canter, he goes to do the transition then stops dead, rears and p*sses off. Clearly there is something wrong but there is no soreness, lameness or anything else to go on. Vet and physio stumped - there is a little soreness after he does this but that's due to him not being in work then behaving like a loon. He goes nuts ut thats not really 'him' if that makes sense. I've tried loose schooling and I don't get the rearing so much but instead he goes of like a thing possessed. AT the back of my mind is that the vet said something about changes in the neck and I am worried that he could be going down the Wobbler route as some of his behaviors are similar to my mare that had this.

He can of course retire and be a field ornament but I am concerned that at 10, he will be very bored for a very long time and that he isn't actually as comfortable as he appears. In the files as I look at him now, he looks absolutely incredible - muscled and well covered. He is the sweetest horse you could ever hope to meet but he is incredibly spooky so I can't even try and plod him gently on a hack (he is a liability to hack anyway). I want to do whats best for him but I am at a loss and the vet won't really commit to anything.

Can I please ask for your thoughts? Do I try and push him through it? Give up and let him retire? Or (gulp) consider PTS as he may get worse? If I am really honest, he scared me and I cannot predict what he will do. I have 2 other horses who are lively enough and not at all push button but I never feel worried on ether of them but something about this one is worrying me and yet I cannot put my finger on what it is.

Thanks in advance.
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Sorry haven't read all the replies, but from a person who has already owned and lost a wobbler/CVM horse, in your position I would ask a vet to carry out a neuro test, and if the results pin point a neuro problem then go on to get his neck xrayed at an equine hospital for compression in the vetebrae which may lead to this sort of behaviour, especially as you already have concerns in this area. If he does have compression and ataxia/neuro deficit then you can make a decision on how to go forwards.
 
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Mine has SI and also allergy/headshaking issues, I feel your pain. I thought i was winning until two weeks ago, now he is lame and unhappy again. back to the vets on Friday to assess if its likely to be SI or stifle. I have the same worry, that at 10 it is a long time to be retired, especially when my fields are not that stimulating. I am lucky that he likes playing games so we can always find ways to keep him entertained. My biggest issue is that he won't rest, he doesn't understand controlled. he likes to gallop and spin and leap. I am now weighing whether I face him having a shorter happier life, allowing him to be out with his mates playing but risking an acute injury, or try to keep him wrapped up in cotton wool and with all feet down on the ground but risk myself trying to work him and his mental health by restraining him. Its an awful thing to have to think about.
 
I'll be blunt and state categorically that no horse ever is worth getting hurt for no matter how much you think of them.
Sorry, if I was you, he'd be at the kennels quicker than he could blink and I'd start enjoying the other two that you feel safe with.
 
Maesfen said:
I'll be blunt and state categorically that no horse ever is worth getting hurt for no matter how much you think of them.
Sorry, if I was you, he'd be at the kennels quicker than he could blink and I'd start enjoying the other two that you feel safe with.
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This^^^^
 
PercyMum said:
That's really interesting - he does do this weird head shaking thing, like he is nodding?? Is that what your boy does? We just assumed it was a quirk of his, as there is no real pattern to when he does it. I'd be really interested in any links you might have found, if you would be happy to share them? I'm willing to look into everything, if only to make sure he is comfortable; I'd like to ride him again but his QOL is most important.
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Sorry to hear of your problems, I dont really have anything useful to add, other than my friends horse started a nodding kind of head shaking. Also appeared to look at, or see things that weren't there. We believe it was because he was in so much pain. It wasn't seasonal and only happened as he deteriorated. His issue was a severe gut issue and he was put down at the age of 5 or 6. Very sad but he was dangerous and in obvious pain. Sorry to be all negative but nodding sounded all too familiar.
 
What a dreadful situation to be in and one I know only too well. I was faced with the same issues, same dilemma as recently as January. You can probably still find my thread about my horse Fluthier. I made the decision to PTS. He was only 6 rising 7 and, as a firey TB, not a candidate for being a field ornament, even if there were any fields here. (south east France). So no real advice but lots of support and sympathy for whatever you decide to do.
 
My old mare, no longer with me, had serious SI problems. Bad enough that she was never supposed to recover to ridden work. She did, but it took a few years to get her fully fit and I always had to be very careful about introducing work, building up duration, etc and she never got to the point where she was able to properly engage her hindquarters and work from behind. We mostly hacked, which she was very good at and enjoyed. She was able to canter out hacking, though for many years favoured one lead massively over the other. Eventually she could take either lead out hacking and seemed to enjoy cantering, often offering it herself. Any attempt to get canter in an arena was met with explosive bucks though, even many years down the line when she was considered sound by vets and myself.

It wasn't an issue for me, we just didn't canter in the arena or compete. It wasn't the "end" for her, not in and of itself. We had 12 years together. Ultimately it did play a part in my decision to have her euthanised, as she was struggling with cushings and low grade laminitis, plus by that point had arthritis quite badly in her hocks and pasterns. To keep her SI in check she had to be fit and muscled (the ligaments were ruined, it was basically scar tissue and muscle holding her back end together) so being out of work due to everything else just contributed to her being less and less comfortable behind.
 
In your shoes I'm afraid I'd also pts, you can throw thousands of pounds, break your heart with the worry and stress and ultimately have an unhappy uncomfortable horse, which is no life for either of you.
 
Thanks all. In my heart of hearts I think I know his ridden days are over. I just need to work out if he is comfortable mentally and physically, and I guess thats the hard thing. To look at he seems fine but the odd little quirks he has would suggest otherwise. Perhaps I'll see how he goes over the summer and make the decision in Sept/Oct. Such a waste - he really is a lovely boy :(
 
Sorry to hear you are having such problems. When he was originally diagnosed with the KS and SI issues, did you have the areas medicated with steroid injections?
 
I've retired my mare at 8. I never got to the bottom of her issues - full back scan showed low grade hot spots due to some very limited narrowing of the spine just behind the saddle (not enough to cause an issue according to the vet) but I could never get her to work consistently. Canter was non existent, reluctant to go forward, saddle issues constantly, hind leg lameness (v low grade) but also very unpredictable in thst she was good as gold 99% of the time but every now and again would chuck the kitchen sink at me. We investigated everything - scoped etc (she had ulcers) but never got a clear reason. She ended up breaking my hip. You love your boy but it's really not worth risking a serious injury and he's giving you more than enough warnings (my mare gave me plenty). I genuinely felt relieved when I decided to retire mine (I can keep her at home and she's an ok companion) but I will keep a very close eye on her for any behavioural changes etc. best of luck.
 
Ceriann said:
I've retired my mare at 8. I never got to the bottom of her issues - full back scan showed low grade hot spots due to some very limited narrowing of the spine just behind the saddle (not enough to cause an issue according to the vet) but I could never get her to work consistently. Canter was non existent, reluctant to go forward, saddle issues constantly, hind leg lameness (v low grade) but also very unpredictable in thst she was good as gold 99% of the time but every now and again would chuck the kitchen sink at me. We investigated everything - scoped etc (she had ulcers) but never got a clear reason. She ended up breaking my hip. You love your boy but it's really not worth risking a serious injury and he's giving you more than enough warnings (my mare gave me plenty). I genuinely felt relieved when I decided to retire mine (I can keep her at home and she's an ok companion) but I will keep a very close eye on her for any behavioural changes etc. best of luck.
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Thank you. Your words have really struck a chord. He is similar to your girl in that he has all these things going on, but none of them reflect what he is actually doing reaction-wise. Yoiu are right in that I love him but he is warning me and constantly pushing it to see if he can work is not helpful to either of us. I think I will retire him; I think its best for both of us :*/
 
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