SI LG in canter today

Armas

Armas

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Another good day imho things are starting to fall in to place. Today we worked on canter work SI LY and a couple of flying changes for good measure.

[video=youtube;V4aRZvJuozA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4aRZvJuozA&feature=youtu.be[/video]
 
Right! Digging this back up from page 3000, sorry! I liked this session better than yesterday's personally - yesterday he looked tight in his back and becoming shorter in his neck again. For me, yesterday he didn't really look as connected as he has done recently, probably partly because of the spooking but it felt a bit like he hadn't been through his stretchy warm-up quite enough to settle into the rein and let go of himself.

Anyway... he's had days like that before and then moved on having made some progress so that's in the past now :wink3:

Warm up today looked a bit more productive and less swan-like, stepping through more and when ridden forward he is reaching to the bit again.

For me, he is just finding the shorter canter a little difficult at the moment. There were times when his hindlegs looked like a bit of an afterthought for him :tongue3: they were almost acting as a brake beneath him so while he was obedient :), she was losing the engagement a bit IMO. I thought that showed up especially as he then fluffed some of the changes and ran away. What was nice was that when he did a true change, the canter afterwards looked good.

For interest it would have been nice to see a view of the shoulder in from the front/back instead of side on :)

I accept that he needs to wait for the rider and let her choose the direction/flexion of travel etc and riding all of that lateral work in a really forward round canter may be hair raising at the moment :wink3: and tbf he might just zoom off out of control. Alternating between on (stretching & round) and back in the sideways might be a nice exercise for him. Will be really interesting to see how she progresses this work.:)
 
That was a good session today, mainly because of the amount of progression during the one session that would never have been possible a couple of weeks ago.

At the beginning the canter was nice and rhythmic, but was lacking any real sense of direction because he really wasn't off her leg. I think that was mainly because he has got used to doing stretchy canter with her as a sort of warm up exercise and hasn't really been asked to work in that pace until today. And when he's not properly off her leg his back end varies from being very wayward with the wibbly wobbly all over the place to stiffening up and jarring the movement through his whole body. All of that meant that the leg yielding at the beginning was more of a drift across the school, particularly on the right rein where he was just using his strong left shoulder to drag himself across.

But then she stopped and did some turn on the forehand and the penny dropped. After that she still had to remind him a lot, but he was moving his back end over for her and got steadily more and more supple in the leg yield - by the end the right leg yield was really rather good. The shoulder in was getting better, but personally I think I would do travers with him in the canter before the shoulder in, just t keep that back end mobile and stop him shifting his concentration to the front.

All in all though, it's starting to look like it's coming together more now, rather than just having good moments.
 
No red face here.

As I have said before future improvements won't make past viewing more comfortable and so old comments may well still stand!

He looks happier himself and he has taught her a lot :)

Much more comfortable in his mind, but still looks decidedly uncomfortable in his back end sometimes, as if it is fixed or a little stuck in the canter.

He's beautiful as always and she is far more understanding of him.
 
Hi, I've not contributed before but have watched several of the videos, also don't consider myself "an expert" just someone who is interested and have struggled with my own horses. He's a lovely horse and i've seen a huge improvement in his attitude and his willingness to work with his trainer. He's a clever horse, I think, and seems to learn things very quickly. His canter work today was better than the trotwork yesterday , he looked more connected at times but I feel he is blocking the rider in his neck, you can see where he holds and I feel perhaps it's this that is putting the brake on, so that he doesn't engage behind. He never really looks truly in front of the leg and rarely tracks up and isn't "through". Personally i'd do more work long and low encouraging him to stretch to the contact, work over his back and start to use his backend more. I'm just a bit worried that if you continue to do more advanced work with him, you'll never completely "nail" the problem with the BTV contact, which everyone knows is notoriously difficult to deal with. Good luck and keep posting we are all on a journey with our horses, I find it really interesting to read other people's comments as long as there are not insulting.
 
oldie48 said:
Hi, I've not contributed before but have watched several of the videos, also don't consider myself "an expert" just someone who is interested and have struggled with my own horses. He's a lovely horse and i've seen a huge improvement in his attitude and his willingness to work with his trainer. He's a clever horse, I think, and seems to learn things very quickly. His canter work today was better than the trotwork yesterday , he looked more connected at times but I feel he is blocking the rider in his neck, you can see where he holds and I feel perhaps it's this that is putting the brake on, so that he doesn't engage behind. He never really looks truly in front of the leg and rarely tracks up and isn't "through". Personally i'd do more work long and low encouraging him to stretch to the contact, work over his back and start to use his backend more. I'm just a bit worried that if you continue to do more advanced work with him, you'll never completely "nail" the problem with the BTV contact, which everyone knows is notoriously difficult to deal with. Good luck and keep posting we are all on a journey with our horses, I find it really interesting to read other people's comments as long as there are not insulting.
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I am glad that you have been enjoying the videos and there up & downs. I am very happy with the trainer and I am extremely pleased with Armas progress.
Prior to every ridden session he is lunged walk trot & canter and encouraged to stretch. I understand and agree that he needs to stretch for the contact, but this is just not the case at the moment there are times when this does happen and is becoming more frequent. She thinks given the work and the confidence & muscle building the BTV issue will hopefully become less & less. You can see that he is already spending a lot less time BTV.
 
Armas said:
I am glad that you have been enjoying the videos and there up & downs. I am very happy with the trainer and I am extremely pleased with Armas progress.
Prior to every ridden session he is lunged walk trot & canter and encouraged to stretch. I understand and agree that he needs to stretch for the contact, but this is just not the case at the moment there are times when this does happen and is becoming more frequent. She thinks given the work and the confidence & muscle building the BTV issue will hopefully become less & less. You can see that he is already spending a lot less time BTV.
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Well, although you can see things from the ground, you can't feel the same things as the rider! We had a very talented and clever 14.2 pony who went just like Armas when we bought him, It was a slow and sometimes frustrating journey with him but he came good in the end and went on to compete at a very high level, very successfully but there was no quick fix and we spent a lot of time going back over the basics. Trouble with clever horses, they learn the bad things as quickly as the good things! Thanks for replying to my post. What surface are you using? in the videos it looks and sounds a bit dead but it's difficult to tell.
 
Billie1007 said:
No red face here.

As I have said before future improvements won't make past viewing more comfortable and so old comments may well still stand!

He looks happier himself and he has taught her a lot :)

Much more comfortable in his mind, but still looks decidedly uncomfortable in his back end sometimes, as if it is fixed or a little stuck in the canter.

He's beautiful as always and she is far more understanding of him.
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I fail to see that any horse hasn't spent some point of it's ridden life looking uncomfortable or 'unpretty'. My horse has just spent the past three years going around like a giraffe with a crossed jaw. That is no different than a horse going BTV.

It's strange how someone could post a vid of a horse poking it's nose and crossing it's jaw and yet not get remotely the same amount of criticism as Armas.

As for the hindleg issue. I do not see any lameness there. I see a horse who is still a bit stiff behind in movement due to the issue of him evading and not working through properly. My horse doesn't look as fluid on her right rein behind, because that is her worst rein, and she evades more.
 
I have been camping up north, Moomin, and in any case, I've gotten bored of repeating myself. If you rode my horse (and others I've ridden, though no Iberians) with your hands low and wide, would it encourage the horse to go on her forehand, which is what I see Armas doing? Yes, it would. My horse is very good at pulling herself along like a freight train with the front end, so she needs no encouragement, thank you! Would I want this trainer on my horse. Nope. Does it matter? Nope.
 
Caol Ila said:
I have been camping up north, Moomin, and in any case, I've gotten bored of repeating myself. If you rode my horse (and others I've ridden, though no Iberians) with your hands low and wide, would it encourage the horse to go on her forehand, which is what I see Armas doing? Yes, it would. My horse is very good at pulling herself along like a freight train with the front end, so she needs no encouragement, thank you! Would I want this trainer on my horse. Nope. Does it matter? Nope.
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Well given that I have had numerous experienced people try and get my horse working properly up until lately, with no effective results whatsoever, then I have learnt that what works for 'the majority' of horses, does not always work for all of them.

Interestingly, given that many people over many years have tried, and failed, to get my horse working nicely and correctly (including myself), it took one 45 minute lesson with the right guy to suss her out, and she is a completely different horse now. Obviously, the picture is not one of perfection yet, but it is one billion lightyears away from where she was before.

Quite honestly, I wouldn't want someone ride my horse who has such a blinkered and narrow minded view of training as you appear to have given that you think that 'all' horses would fall onto the forehand if you rode with low and wide hands.
 
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Moomin1 said:
I fail to see that any horse hasn't spent some point of it's ridden life looking uncomfortable or 'unpretty'. My horse has just spent the past three years going around like a giraffe with a crossed jaw. That is no different than a horse going BTV.

It's strange how someone could post a vid of a horse poking it's nose and crossing it's jaw and yet not get remotely the same amount of criticism as Armas.

As for the hindleg issue. I do not see any lameness there. I see a horse who is still a bit stiff behind in movement due to the issue of him evading and not working through properly. My horse doesn't look as fluid on her right rein behind, because that is her worst rein, and she evades more.
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Moomin, when I write uncomfortable I mean uncomfortable - as in physically. I know full well that it can lack prettiness during training, trust me I have been there. When I wrote that Armas looks uncomfortable I meant physically, in his back end. There are times when his hind seems to stick together and he bounces together rather than strides. It's ok that you don't see it. I do because I have a mare with a sticky hind that I am permanently drawn to and in walk her and Armas look 100 % the same. I have learnt very recently that Olive is functionally longer on that side and that muscle that has subsequently been built isn't allow her to step through correctly.

Mormon, you seem disappointed that this thread hasn't sky rocketed like the others. Are you trying to blow the dying embers? :)
 
Let me rephrase then. There's a pronounced lack of lightness in her riding and in the horse right now that I'm not particularly taken with. It looks to me like she is riding the horse downhill, heavy on the foreand. If I was seeking out a dressage trainer and saw the above video as an example of how this trainer works, I would keep looking since for me, lightness is one of things at the very heart of dressage and I don't see it here. Call me narrowminded if you like.
 
Moomin1 said:
It's very interesting how hardly anyone has replied or commented on this thread.

Red faces maybe.
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Don't think so moomin, I was one of the ones who didn't like BBs to start with, however I admitted I was wrong and I don't remember his threads dying a death (despite many people being up in arms about him in the beginning) when it was proven he was sorting the horse out.

I don't like this rider, I've tried to be educated by the likes of milipops and GG, but I still don't like her on this horse. As already said, there's no point continually banging on about it. James is happy and its his horse so there you go.
 
FfionWinnie said:
Don't think so moomin, I was one of the ones who didn't like BBs to start with, however I admitted I was wrong and I don't remember his threads dying a death (despite many people being up in arms about him in the beginning) when it was proven he was sorting the horse out.

I don't like this rider, I've tried to be educated by the likes of milipops and GG, but I still don't like her on this horse. As already said, there's no point continually banging on about it. James is happy and its his horse so there you go.
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This, exactly. So long as James is happy with his horse's progress, my opinion doesn't make a blind bit of difference. I just look for different things in a dressage trainer.
 
No red face from me either. I dont really have anything to say, and no timr to look at all the videos.

So simply apart from saying how beautiful the horse is, and that, as well I dont like the rider, I have nothing further to add to the conversation.
 
DabDab said:
I don't think most people have the time or inclination to watch the videos, that's all.
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Well then why do they comment if they haven't got the inclination?

If I haven't got the inclination to read a thread, then I generally don't have the inclination to comment either.

I think there is a marked improvement in Armas' way of going now. Whether this trainer is the right one to take him on further is irrelevant at this stage. If she has made improvements in Armas' work then that's all that matters up to now. I am sure if things then stagnate and don't improve any further, James will review the situation.
 
Moomin1 said:
Well then why do they comment if they haven't got the inclination?
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Barely anybody did comment on this thread. Hence I think DabDab hit the nail on the head. It was only when you made your red faced comment that a couple of people replied. I think people have said all that they feel needs to be said. Broken record and all but at the end of the day, James is happy with what he sees. End of story.
 
Moomin1 said:
Well then why do they comment if they haven't got the inclination?
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Well they didn't comment and you proposed at the beginning of this thread that that was because they had 'red faces'. All the subsequent responses on this thread I think have just been as a result of your initial comment.
 
Hi Armas
I've watched quite a few of your videos but haven't commented. I agree with Moomin that there is improvement in Armas, he is less BTV & he looks much "easier" like he is getting stronger therefore he's more able to do the work.

Just a couple of questions:
Did you get the chiropractor out in the end?
Also what's his current "work" schedule? i.e. how are sessions in long-reining, under saddle & "rest" days split?

In terms of horses looking "uncomfortable" I'd liked to see peoples faces when they try something new, it's not really that different for horses.
Also my horse works very heavily on the forehand, I have to do a lot of work with my hands wide & low in order to get her to accept the contact & stop poking her nose out both when bringing her back in to work & warming up for a session. Once I have got her softer I can then ask her to come back onto her hind more. If I ask when she's not really fit for the work, she stops tracking up so well & breaks the pace especially in canter. Now I can't say that's what is happening with Armas, (I'm not sat on him) but you can't say one thing works in exactly the same way for every horse.
 
Not red faced as I haven't commented on any of the other threads, so my initial comments are the horse does not have four wheel drive, he is pulling himself along from the front and there is no power from behind. As I have not seen the earlier videos, I cant say if there is any improvement, but from watching this one, I would say that the horse is very weak behind and doesn't use its hocks properly, very stiff behind and looks like two horses stuck together, front end works, back end seems not to. Apologies to the owner, no offence intended.
 
DabDab said:
I don't think most people have the time or inclination to watch the videos, that's all.
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I think this is the thing - personally I keep watching them mainly because it's pretty rare to be able to be a fly on the wall and see every day of a horse's training with a rider, without it becoming a weird stalkery situation! :lol:

You might catch an edited day of training on the TV, or a couple of hours at a demo, or steal a glimpse at another livery, but not hour upon hour of training the same horse which you can just sit there and openly gawp at. Regardless of whether I 'approve' ;) of what she is doing, it's a fascinating thing to be able to watch, for me. I watch these instead of TV!


Spring Feather said:
Barely anybody did comment on this thread. Hence I think DabDab hit the nail on the head. It was only when you made your red faced comment that a couple of people replied. I think people have said all that they feel needs to be said. Broken record and all but at the end of the day, James is happy with what he sees. End of story.
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As the first to respond to this thread, I just wanted to say that my own position on posting is not to say what I feel *needs* to be said - I've enjoyed getting my own thoughts in order and trying to put them into words, whether or not anyone is reading them or feels the need to respond :p Plus there have been some interesting discussions about the basic essence of training horses, and I've chatted on here with people I probably wouldn't have bumped into otherwise :)

Caol Ila said:
If you rode my horse (and others I've ridden, though no Iberians) with your hands low and wide, would it encourage the horse to go on her forehand, which is what I see Armas doing? Yes, it would.
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Just on this^^ If you ride my horse with hands low and wide, she stretches and reaches out to the contact. She's different to Armas but she has also learned to do that when the contact changes to feel that way. With enough energy in the pace she doesn't fall on her head :)

Actually I don't think that's what this rider is doing - for me, the low hands have "appeared" as she has begun to ask towards collection. They actually look a little fixed to me in these last couple of days, whereas they didn't in the first few sessions. (I have the opposite problem - mine go skywards :eek:)
 
jenki13 said:
Hi Armas
I've watched quite a few of your videos but haven't commented. I agree with Moomin that there is improvement in Armas, he is less BTV & he looks much "easier" like he is getting stronger therefore he's more able to do the work.

Just a couple of questions:
Did you get the chiropractor out in the end?
Also what's his current "work" schedule? i.e. how are sessions in long-reining, under saddle & "rest" days split?

In terms of horses looking "uncomfortable" I'd liked to see peoples faces when they try something new, it's not really that different for horses.
Also my horse works very heavily on the forehand, I have to do a lot of work with my hands wide & low in order to get her to accept the contact & stop poking her nose out both when bringing her back in to work & warming up for a session. Once I have got her softer I can then ask her to come back onto her hind more. If I ask when she's not really fit for the work, she stops tracking up so well & breaks the pace especially in canter. Now I can't say that's what is happening with Armas, (I'm not sat on him) but you can't say one thing works in exactly the same way for every horse.
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I am struggling to get a chiropractor out the two female practitioners are pregnant thus not working and the male practitioner is away :( I am unwilling to try some one out who has not been recommended as have been ripped of my a " holistic practitioner " in the past.
Work wise for example this week Monday we long reined T W T ridden F off Saturday long reining with pole work Sunday off then Monday will start with long reining again. All work is carried out 9am finished by 10am then some afternoons I hack him out.
Every ridden session starts with a 15min lunging session walk trot canter to warm him up and encourage him to stretch.
As a few have commented yes I am happy with the trainer at the moment. I see good things starting to happen the way she rides or trains may not be to every ones taste but thats life !
I enjoy reading and learning from the comments.
 
milliepops said:
I think this is the thing - personally I keep watching them mainly because it's pretty rare to be able to be a fly on the wall and see every day of a horse's training with a rider, without it becoming a weird stalkery situation! :lol:

You might catch an edited day of training on the TV, or a couple of hours at a demo, or steal a glimpse at another livery, but not hour upon hour of training the same horse which you can just sit there and openly gawp at. Regardless of whether I 'approve' ;) of what she is doing, it's a fascinating thing to be able to watch, for me. I watch these instead of TV!




As the first to respond to this thread, I just wanted to say that my own position on posting is not to say what I feel *needs* to be said - I've enjoyed getting my own thoughts in order and trying to put them into words, whether or not anyone is reading them or feels the need to respond :p Plus there have been some interesting discussions about the basic essence of training horses, and I've chatted on here with people I probably wouldn't have bumped into otherwise :)



Just on this^^ If you ride my horse with hands low and wide, she stretches and reaches out to the contact. She's different to Armas but she has also learned to do that when the contact changes to feel that way. With enough energy in the pace she doesn't fall on her head :)

Actually I don't think that's what this rider is doing - for me, the low hands have "appeared" as she has begun to ask towards collection. They actually look a little fixed to me in these last couple of days, whereas they didn't in the first few sessions. (I have the opposite problem - mine go skywards :eek:)
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I was feeling tired after a weekend in the hills when I wrote that and it was sloppy. I lower my hands when I want my horse to stretch as well and the horse follows the contact down without falling on her face. I think there is a world of difference between that and riding with your hands low and braced against the horse. The whole picture I see of Armas -- the rider's hands arguably being a part of it -- is a horse working in quite a downhill manner, without "four wheel drive," as Maiko has said. Sometimes it looks as if she is holding the horse up. I know from other videos, i.e. the ones with David, that this horse can work more uphill and in more self-carriage.
 
Caol Ila said:
The whole picture I see of Armas -- the rider's hands arguably being a part of it -- is a horse working in quite a downhill manner, without "four wheel drive," as Maiko has said. Sometimes it looks as if she is holding the horse up.
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I don't disagree, there are definitely moments like that. Most of my responses have been that I like the work where she rides him more forward because then he begins to engage, reach out and become in self carriage :)
 
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