"Silver Dun".. it's grey.

Hoof_Prints said:
Well, not necessarily, if the horse is in fact going to end up white and that is something they want to avoid, then they should know the outcome. It can only be a good thing to have the facts out there, rather than just carry on being misinformed or ignorant to them ;) No problem with people who don't give a toss about it, some might want to if they knew a bit more :D
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Indeed - I never understand the 'who cares' argument when it comes to the description for purposes of sale. It's as dishonest in my book as passing one breed off as another when selling
 
DabDab said:
Indeed - I never understand the 'who cares' argument when it comes to the description for purposes of sale. It's as dishonest in my book as passing one breed off as another when selling
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Because a horse isn’t going to suddenly change colour if you call it a dun when it’s a buckskin.
The only one that may do so is a grey but then again, some greys don’t go completely white, I know a rose grey mare who whilst she has lightened a bit over the last 10 years, aged 14 she is still a pretty rose grey (and yes i do know the difference between that and a roan).
If they are foolish enough to not realise a grey may go white then they are probably not going to be interested in genetics anyway!
Also it is a very visible trait to if people actually cared what genetic colour thier horse was then it is there for them to see.

I certainly didn’t set out to buy a pretty colour when I bought my chocolate dun (sorry sooty buckskin) Connemara. I set out to buy a decent native pony who would do well in the show ring, be good to hack out, a lovely person to have around and who could tach me to truely ride a horse - non of that changed because someone decided to be AR about his colour!
 
Ok, so there's a lot you've said there.

Buckskin/dun is basically semantics the way most people use it, so it depends how much that bothers you.

Greys that don't white out are very much a rarity and there's no way to know when selling a young horse.

Yes, people are idiots, that's why we have laws regarding selling and misdescription. I'm irritated by 'silver dun' when it's grey about as much as I am by a black cob being described as 'Frisian x' to help it sell better to an idiot for more money. It's just unethical in my book, and I'm terribly sorry if you find that AR.

Chocolate dun is way too exotic for my upbringing, so I'm afraid your Connie would just be brown in my book :)
 
DabDab said:
Ok, so there's a lot you've said there.

Buckskin/dun is basically semantics the way most people use it, so it depends how much that bothers you.

Greys that don't white out are very much a rarity and there's no way to know when selling a young horse.

Yes, people are idiots, that's why we have laws regarding selling and misdescription. I'm irritated by 'silver dun' when it's grey about as much as I am by a black cob being described as 'Frisian x' to help it sell better to an idiot for more money. It's just unethical in my book, and I'm terribly sorry if you find that AR.

Chocolate dun is way too exotic for my upbringing, so I'm afraid your Connie would just be brown in my book :)
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he was very darkbrown on top and it faded to a bright yellow belly.
Did get called a bay a few times by some judges but meh
photo.php
 
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DabDab said:
Greys that don't white out are very much a rarity and there's no way to know when selling a young horse.
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They all go white. Just some take longer than other. And no, people dont always know that, especially if they are presented with something that visually appears roan for example and they are told thats what it is.

conniegirl said:
he was very darkbrown on top and it faded to a bright yellow belly.
Did get called a bay a few times by some judges but meh
photo.php
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There is a good chance he is bay. People cant seem to tell the difference between bay with panagre and dun/buckskin. I see an awful lot of genetically bay horses advertised as chocolate duns and all sorts of nonsense.

To get the Facebook photo to work you have to click on it to enlarge it, then right click and select copy image address.
 
Yes LW, I was talking in reference to a mid teens horse that still has some element of colour to it as per CG's anecdote. I have come across one like this too, and have also come across a few that became heavily fleabitten almost immediately upon becoming white. And as for people not knowing - that's sort of the point I was making...?

ETA: hoping pic works CG, love a smart Connie
 
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conniegirl said:
If they are foolish enough to not realise a grey may go white then they are probably not going to be interested in genetics anyway!
Also it is a very visible trait to if people actually cared what genetic colour thier horse was then it is there for them to see.

I certainly didn’t set out to buy a pretty colour when I bought my chocolate dun (sorry sooty buckskin) Connemara. I set out to buy a decent native pony who would do well in the show ring, be good to hack out, a lovely person to have around and who could tach me to truely ride a horse - non of that changed because someone decided to be AR about his colour!
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Just because someone doesn't know something, it doesn't make them foolish. It's good to raise the point and make someone aware, who would have otherwise not known any different.
 
Surely it's less annoying when someone is 'AR' about colour (as it has been delightfully put) and they are correct, then when they are 'AR' and they are wrong? I was quite aggressively told that my chestnut/grey youngster was a strawberry roan several times by different people. Now please bear in mind that I have never corrected anyone about their horse's colour IRL, so it wasn't to get back at me over anything. Unsurprisingly I didn't get one single apology when she greyed out, although the people did start calling her grey then.

I can think of a few times when people on here have been delighted when they have put up photos of their horses and found that they are an unusual colour. EG the 'washed out chestnut' that was actually a Red Dun.

I dabble in the model horse hobby and they are really good at horse colours. Accuracy is key there as if you are commissioning an artist to paint your very expensive artist resin, you don't want any communication errors resulting in the wrong colour being painted. Also as people want to have sculptures that are of a specific breed painted in a colour that is possible for that breed, they are very good at knowing what genes each breed has. So Cream and Dun are definitely very separate things. I have tried to explain why people in the UK often call buckskin 'dun' and I am often met with such confusion over why people resist being accurate and aren't updating the terms that they use.

I have to say, I find it refreshing when the model horse people talk about colour. There's no bickering, people show photos of unusual colours and no-one is called AR for being accurate. If you get something wrong, you aren't made to feel bad. It's definitely less bitchy than the real horse world, which is such a shame.

Over the years I have been made to feel so bad by some real horse people. The breed I love is the 'wrong' breed. I have a chestnut mare, which apparently means that I will be told how awful chestnut mares are regularly. If I'm interested in colour, then I'm anally retentive. If I'm interested in barefoot, then I'm a member of the 'barefoot taliban'. I use some black tack, that's bad too apparently.

Why can't we be kinder to each other? It completely perplexes me.

I still think that colour should be accurate in a passport. It is meant to identify a specific horse and so it should be accurate or it doesn't do its job (and there are plenty of other reasons that demonstrate why horse passports currently are not fit for purpose). That doesn't make me a monster though.

OK rant over. :)
 
Faracat said:
Surely it's less annoying when someone is 'AR' about colour (as it has been delightfully put) and they are correct, then when they are 'AR' and they are wrong? I was quite aggressively told that my chestnut/grey youngster was a strawberry roan several times by different people. Now please bear in mind that I have never corrected anyone about their horse's colour IRL, so it wasn't to get back at me over anything. Unsurprisingly I didn't get one single apology when she greyed out, although the people did start calling her grey then.

I can think of a few times when people on here have been delighted when they have put up photos of their horses and found that they are an unusual colour. EG the 'washed out chestnut' that was actually a Red Dun.

I dabble in the model horse hobby and they are really good at horse colours. Accuracy is key there as if you are commissioning an artist to paint your very expensive artist resin, you don't want any communication errors resulting in the wrong colour being painted. Also as people want to have sculptures that are of a specific breed painted in a colour that is possible for that breed, they are very good at knowing what genes each breed has. So Cream and Dun are definitely very separate things. I have tried to explain why people in the UK often call buckskin 'dun' and I am often met with such confusion over why people resist being accurate and aren't updating the terms that they use.

I have to say, I find it refreshing when the model horse people talk about colour. There's no bickering, people show photos of unusual colours and no-one is called AR for being accurate. If you get something wrong, you aren't made to feel bad. It's definitely less bitchy than the real horse world, which is such a shame.

Over the years I have been made to feel so bad by some real horse people. The breed I love is the 'wrong' breed. I have a chestnut mare, which apparently means that I will be told how awful chestnut mares are regularly. If I'm interested in colour, then I'm anally retentive. If I'm interested in barefoot, then I'm a member of the 'barefoot taliban'. I use some black tack, that's bad too apparently.

Why can't we be kinder to each other? It completely perplexes me.

I still think that colour should be accurate in a passport. It is meant to identify a specific horse and so it should be accurate or it doesn't do its job (and there are plenty of other reasons that demonstrate why horse passports currently are not fit for purpose). That doesn't make me a monster though.

OK rant over. :)
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Need a *like* button
 
Leo Walker said:
They all go white. Just some take longer than other. And no, people dont always know that, especially if they are presented with something that visually appears roan for example and they are told thats what it is.



There is a good chance he is bay. People cant seem to tell the difference between bay with panagre and dun/buckskin. I see an awful lot of genetically bay horses advertised as chocolate duns and all sorts of nonsense.

To get the Facebook photo to work you have to click on it to enlarge it, then right click and select copy image address.
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I’m on my phone and ipad only at the moment so really struggling. 2 mins work on a laptop is so much harder on the ipad

It was someone very AR about colour genetics who told me (infact tried to beat me over the head with the fact which is half the reason im so negative about the whole thing) that he was a sooty buckskin, not a cocolate dun!
 
On an ipad you hold and select open in new tab then copy the information in the address bar and paste it between img tags.

I'm sure by AR you meant knowledgeable or interested didnt you? Because otherwise you are being needlessly unpleasant, having had it pointed out several times now why people would find that rude and/or unpleasant.
 
For that woman AR was right, could have also been called a colour genetics Nazi! The woman was demented and thats putting it nicely, knowledgable maybe but beating people over the head with it then stalking thier every post whether relative or not, private messaging me constantly despite being told not to and then following me to other forums after i left that one to get away from her is havig a screw loose!
 
I'm not sure "Nazi" is remotely defensible. She does sound unpleasant and somewhat like she may have some issues though.
 
Leo Walker said:
It should look like this:

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=c5fe215cfa227bf04daaa9d5307dc51d&oe=5A83E06E

What you've posted is a link to the page, but you need to set the photo to public to make that work. You have to click on the photo and get that to open in a new tab, before copying that address bar information. You cant just copy the address bar info for the page its on.
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That’s exactly what I’ve tried to do and the above is the only address I can get for it.
It will just have to wait untill Tuesday when I get my laptop back
 
Looks sooty bay to me :)

Could be a very dark sooty buckskin but he's certainly not chocolate dun
 
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Wheels said:
Looks sooty bay to me :)

Could be a very dark sooty buckskin but he's certainly not chocolate dun
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He was chocolate dun on his passport because untill very recently connemara society did not accept buckskin as a colour. Connies don’t however carry the dun gene, so no he technically can’t be chocolate dun, but does it really matter what he was called? Misnaming his colour does not impact on his care, health, schooling, ability to be a brilliant all rounder, ability to take me up through dressage levels etc.

I had photos on photo bucket That showed his very yellow belly very clearly, but photobucket has died.
I only have about 3 photos of him on Facebook, 1 is the above, one is him lieing down and another is of him in his thick winter coat with a rug on.

His sire was down as black his dam is dark eyed cream. His 3 full siblings are bay, “dun” (more likely buckskin) and grey according to the IHR
Work that one out!
 
Here is my late Connie cross girl she was Connie cross Anglo Arab what a sweet girl she was. She was sold has dun and had dorsal stripe but no leg bars.

005_zpstrowfbfd.jpg
 
Leo Walker said:
They all go white. Just some take longer than other. And no, people dont always know that, especially if they are presented with something that visually appears roan for example and they are told thats what it is.
Click to expand...

unless your comico, or one of the connie line that seems they will die before being white ;)

Faracat it is interesting what you say about the model horse people, because actually I have been really surprised at their lack of knowledge, but of the worst kind in that they really think they are right... Trying to have a conversation the other day that depigmentation of the muzzle could occur with LP the other day, with examples and got nowhere!
 
conniegirl said:
He was chocolate dun on his passport because untill very recently connemara society did not accept buckskin as a colour. Connies don’t however carry the dun gene, so no he technically can’t be chocolate dun, but does it really matter what he was called? Misnaming his colour does not impact on his care, health, schooling, ability to be a brilliant all rounder, ability to take me up through dressage levels etc.

I had photos on photo bucket That showed his very yellow belly very clearly, but photobucket has died.
I only have about 3 photos of him on Facebook, 1 is the above, one is him lieing down and another is of him in his thick winter coat with a rug on.

His sire was down as black his dam is dark eyed cream. His 3 full siblings are bay, “dun” (more likely buckskin) and grey according to the IHR
Work that one out!
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He's certainly a very smart beastie, and his colour is very pretty - really highlights his good conformation actually, much more so than if he was a fully bleached out grey for example.
 
Ester- How frustrating.

Was it a FB group? I'm not on FB, so I have no experience of what the FB model horse groups are like. I know that the lady who set up the WhiteHorseProductions site (and the horse colour pages on it) is a model horse person and she is currently updating that to fit with the current understanding. So she's definitely open to reviewing things as 'we' understand more. The people on the forum I go on seem pretty open minded and willing to learn.

I was reading a thread the other day, where someone wanted a possible breed (or cross of breeds) for this model.

swaps2017app.jpg


They were given a few suggestions and someone said what they had shown him as (and he did well) so it was all very amicable. Maybe not the deep scientific discussion you are after, but a sort of kind and functional discussion.
 
Faracat said:
Surely it's less annoying when someone is 'AR' about colour (as it has been delightfully put) and they are correct, then when they are 'AR' and they are wrong? I was quite aggressively told that my chestnut/grey youngster was a strawberry roan several times by different people. Now please bear in mind that I have never corrected anyone about their horse's colour IRL, so it wasn't to get back at me over anything. Unsurprisingly I didn't get one single apology when she greyed out, although the people did start calling her grey then.

I can think of a few times when people on here have been delighted when they have put up photos of their horses and found that they are an unusual colour. EG the 'washed out chestnut' that was actually a Red Dun.

I dabble in the model horse hobby and they are really good at horse colours. Accuracy is key there as if you are commissioning an artist to paint your very expensive artist resin, you don't want any communication errors resulting in the wrong colour being painted. Also as people want to have sculptures that are of a specific breed painted in a colour that is possible for that breed, they are very good at knowing what genes each breed has. So Cream and Dun are definitely very separate things. I have tried to explain why people in the UK often call buckskin 'dun' and I am often met with such confusion over why people resist being accurate and aren't updating the terms that they use.

I have to say, I find it refreshing when the model horse people talk about colour. There's no bickering, people show photos of unusual colours and no-one is called AR for being accurate. If you get something wrong, you aren't made to feel bad. It's definitely less bitchy than the real horse world, which is such a shame.

Over the years I have been made to feel so bad by some real horse people. The breed I love is the 'wrong' breed. I have a chestnut mare, which apparently means that I will be told how awful chestnut mares are regularly. If I'm interested in colour, then I'm anally retentive. If I'm interested in barefoot, then I'm a member of the 'barefoot taliban'. I use some black tack, that's bad too apparently.

Why can't we be kinder to each other? It completely perplexes me.

I still think that colour should be accurate in a passport. It is meant to identify a specific horse and so it should be accurate or it doesn't do its job (and there are plenty of other reasons that demonstrate why horse passports currently are not fit for purpose). That doesn't make me a monster though.

OK rant over. :)
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Never mind a "like" button, we need a "love" or "favourite" button for posts like this. The facebook keyboard horse trainer brigade I've found are always the worst - the ones who apparently know more about your horse than you do from a single photograph :p I do think accuracy with colour (on passports or owner's descriptions etc. in case pony is ever stolen or gets lost) can actually help safe guard equine welfare as well: there's a big difference between a grey and roan and that difference could be the one that decides whether a distraught owner gets their friend back or not in the case of horse theft, for example.
 
yup FB :),

I'm certainly not their for scientific discussion, I'm on the other groups for that but am surprised at a lot of the responses to stuff, particularly if you suggest something different to their thinking. They just don't seem to manage the logic of 'it cannot be XYZ because of ABC' and just keep repeating the same thing! Re breed suggestions pointing out that something looked very much like it was very obviously intended to be RN roan (a heavy) not just sabino type so they were going to have to stick an ardennes or similar in it's cross was not met with much acceptance :p.

The case I referred to was a set of pictures someone had put on a rescue page of a young LP (poss had grey too was hard to tell) hatrack and them riding it a few years later, the picture of health and very white (but with obviously LP indicators so essentially fewspot). Because it had acquired white on it's muzzle most people agreed that it couldn't possibly be the same horse, I felt quite sorry for the person who had rescued the horse that people didn't believe in her hard work!
 
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