Skewbald racehorse

Cinnamontoast

Cinnamontoast

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I'm probably miles behind the times, but just came across Modern Society, beautiful looking skewbald racer!
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very far behind Angrove used to post on here about their coloured racehorses - but got a right putting down so left as far as I know - not fair really.

It's ok to breed fat gyspy cobs for their colour but nice looking coloured tbs was a no no.
 
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I saw Modern Society going through the sales ring at Tatts. Caused quite a stir then, but since his racecourse runs have been, well, rubbish really!
Still, I don't see why people can't ''try'' to 'change the norm', i'm sure one day one will be do well.
 
Kaylum said:
It's ok to breed fat gyspy cobs for their colour but nice looking coloured tbs was a no no.
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Whilst I wouldn't give someone stick for breeding TB's for their colour if that's what they wanted to do, I think this is a pretty ridiculous thing to say. You show cobs on their colour quality and confirmation amongst other things, you breed TB's for speed and stamina. So yes, breeding TB's for colour and ignoring the other qualities is a no no IF you want to be successful on the track.
 
A coloured one did win in Germany a few months ago I think. I am sure it was by Iwasframed - the American overo.

As much as I don't agree with coloured racehorses and it's not a natural colour for a tb The way it has been gone about is totally wrong. If you want to breed a somewhat successful coloured you would not only need a stallion with decent speed and stamina but also a good mare.

Lets say the mare was the coloured. No TB stud worth it's salt will allow a coloured mare to stand to a very good sire. Depending on how the mare is bred as to how many times you are going to have to go back to the TB's generation after generation until you get the required 7/8 tb to race. Now you could accumulate some very, very nice names in that pedigree but no stud will do it.

Say the stallion is coloured - you then need to get a very good mare to even stand half a chance of producing something with a vague amount of talent. And again depending on the bloodlines of the stallion as to how many times you have to put that of spring back to a TB to get the required 7/8.

At the end of the day it is a hugely expensive business and whilst good bloodlines don't guarantee you producing a good race horse you are increasing you chances of it. You start off with naff racers they are never going to get any better by crossing them to potentially gypsy cobs taking even more speed and stamina out of them.
 
While I agree with a lot of what you say EKW, to say that 'it's not a natural colour for a tb' is wrong. There is more than one coloured/pinto gene and there is more than one in the TB population. If there weren't any pinto/coloured genes then there would be no white markings at all, including face and leg markings.

Although this page is unfinished, there are some great photos of coloured TB's. http://www.whitehorseproductions.com/pintotbs.html Now whether they are fast is of course another matter, but TB's aren't just used for racing, so being slow doesn't stop them being a useful horse in another disipline. :)
 
Beautiful looking horse, I imagine with careful breeding and training then they will produce better racehorses down the line . At least they are breeding high quality with colour (unlike many breeders), it may not be top quality among racehorses, but nobody can say that is not a very well put together and well bred horse. I hope they do well with what they produce.
 
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Faracat - very true. There's lots of white bits in tb lines. And yes they do make great horses for other things but breeding specifically for colour specifically for racing doesn't work.

Many breeders don't want greys. They think they are inferior to bays and chestnuts. You can see why they think this - more bays and chesnuts are seen in the winners enclosure than greys. Personally I don't find them inferior but they certainly arent as popular. Though when you get a good one the whole world sits up and takes notice. Desert Orchard. One Man. Neptune Collangues. The Grey Gatsby. After these my mind draws a blank on great greys. Bays - you could reel off a list as long as your arm of multiple winners at the top level.

The American stallion - Iwasframed - who caused such a stir when he was brought over here a few years ago with the intention of introducing coloured racers to Britain caused much amusement, he served a fair few mares. Nothing came of the offspring. He now stands for 1000euros in france covering mostly selle Francis to make competition horses not racehorses.
 
AShetlandBitMeOnce said:
Whilst I wouldn't give someone stick for breeding TB's for their colour if that's what they wanted to do, I think this is a pretty ridiculous thing to say. You show cobs on their colour quality and confirmation amongst other things, you breed TB's for speed and stamina. So yes, breeding TB's for colour and ignoring the other qualities is a no no IF you want to be successful on the track.
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Indeed and whilst I've never risen to any dizzying heights with my 'fat gypsy cob', he's winning in that pic in my signal. When I was amazed, I was told very simply that he had the desired conformation/movement.

I don't see why the pinto gene should mean a horse is slower, although I remember my grandfather, a racing fiend, telling me that black horses were slower than other colours.

There are thousands of failed racehorses, I know a few that friends have bought cheaply: don't think colour is necessarily the deciding factor. Who'd have thought it, racism is live and kicking in the horse world! :biggrin3: Anyone know why breeders aren't keen on the idea of coloured racers?
 
Coloured racers arent popular over here because they are completely naff and have yet to trouble the judge. There are quite a few paint style TBS in America that do well enough at lower levels but as yet nothing has ever hit any sort of height let alone got anywhere near the top flight races that everyone dreams of winning.

You pay a fortune to keep a horse in training to race and you spend a fortune buying it in the first place. You may as well start off with the best you can afford!
 
EKW said:
breeding specifically for colour specifically for racing doesn't work.
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I agree with this and I think that it is pertinent for more situations than just racing. For example I don't often see a double cream dilute stallion that I think is genuinely stallion quality. They are bred from because of their colour, but at what cost?


The American stallion - Iwasframed - who caused such a stir when he was brought over here a few years ago with the intention of introducing coloured racers to Britain caused much amusement, he served a fair few mares. Nothing came of the offspring. He now stands for 1000euros in france covering mostly selle Francis to make competition horses not racehorses.
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If he crosses well with SF mares and produces good sports horses, then he has found his place, which wasn't as a racing sire for sure.
 
The TB is actually one of the breeds most frequently referenced in conversations concerning Dominant White... Just try googling "dominant white horse" and see what comes up!

The reason breeders are not keen on TBs with high white markings is that, by chance, successful racers have been dark and therefore produced dark offspring, which now predominate and are the breeder's choice. The colour in itself has ZERO impact on how fast the horse runs... It's incidental. However, breeders don't necessarily know anything about genetics - shockingly - so they develop all sorts of superstitions and folk practices. (Something not limited to TB breeders of course - the idea that chestnut mares are somehow worse than other mares is another widely-held example of this phenomenon.)

If you breed FOR colour, you aren't breeding for other things so the bloodlines deteriorate. But this isn't just true of coloured horses. If you only ever bred for black TBs, you'd have the same exact problem. And it's a problem you see time and time again across breeds and disciplines - when horses are bred based on their coat, their performance suffers because the optimal pairings for performance simply aren't being made - it's the optimal pairings for colour that people are thinking about and those are rarely coincident with the optimal for performance.
 
To be fair the quality of the coloured gypsy cobs that some are breeding for the colour lets have a look shall we. Just out of interest I went onto horsequest to look and omg twenty years ago and nobody would touch them as they were classed as common and are now being overbred, end up in rescue centres, just like every other horse whatever the colour and as for the breeding for colour of tbs there are millions of bays, chestnuts, greys, blacks and browns bred that aren't winning lets talk about them shall we. This is why Angrove got shot down and left. Don't blame them really.
 
Kaylum said:
very far behind Angrove used to post on here about their coloured racehorses - but got a right putting down so left as far as I know - not fair really.

It's ok to breed fat gyspy cobs for their colour but nice looking coloured tbs was a no no.
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The thing is they were not TBs as they were by a stallion with only 3/4 TB blood. As for nice looking I have yet to see a coloured 'racehorse' with good conformation.
It is hard enough to breed a successful racehorse from top class parentage let alone trying to breed one by a 3/4 TB.
 
Kaylum said:
To be fair the quality of the coloured gypsy cobs that some are breeding for the colour lets have a look shall we. Just out of interest I went onto horsequest to look and omg twenty years ago and nobody would touch them as they were classed as common and are now being overbred, end up in rescue centres, just like every other horse whatever the colour and as for the breeding for colour of tbs there are millions of bays, chestnuts, greys, blacks and browns bred that aren't winning lets talk about them shall we. This is why Angrove got shot down and left. Don't blame them really.
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Hmmmm. I remember reading about their horse in training. I followed it closely because I'd love to see a winning coloured racehorse. He was sent back by the trainer the first year who said he was too weak to train. The second year they posted saying he was the first coloured horse to be placed in the UK, when he had come third out of three - last, which caused some comment. Then he broke down with a check ligament injury and they immediately gave him away to someone who planned to showjump him. And meanwhile they were using the forum to sell syndication of the next coloured racehorse that they were breeding and advertising their open days. I'm not sure 'shot down' really describes it? It was more like welfare issues caused by breeding for colour and then overstretching the horse, and breaking forum rules by advertising.

I love the horse that started this thread. Can whoever owns it let me have it when it finishes racing please?
 
EKW said:
Yes Iwasramed is his father :) One of the few by him to make it to the track :)

YCBM He has already retired I think, can't remember off the top of my head what he is doing now.
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Showing - and doing well. Angrove have their second horse in training, (may have raced too?)
 
Fools Motto said:
Showing - and doing well. Angrove have their second horse in training, (may have raced too?)
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Different horse. The one in the original post is Modern Society :) Not Angrove Rhumbaba who I know has been out doing well and has also been competing in classes he is not eligble for - ie the Jockey Club Novice ROR series. The other one, Fantrascal I think it is, has ran once so far, was last beaten nearly 50lengths in a 7 furlong maiden.
 
EKW said:
Different horse. The one in the original post is Modern Society :) Not Angrove Rhumbaba who I know has been out doing well and has also been competing in classes he is not eligble for - ie the Jockey Club Novice ROR series. The other one, Fantrascal I think it is, has ran once so far, was last beaten nearly 50lengths in a 7 furlong maiden.
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Took the words right of my mouth ;)
 
Not a fan of coloured horses, nor breeding for colour and trying to force it into breeds where it does not belong. Apart from a couple in eventing, there are no coloured horses right at the top of equine sports that require physical talent, the best horses just ain't coloured and I don't think that's ever going to change, coloured racehorses are a novelty and nothing else.

ycbm said:
Hmmmm. I remember reading about their horse in training. I followed it closely because I'd love to see a winning coloured racehorse. He was sent back by the trainer the first year who said he was too weak to train. The second year they posted saying he was the first coloured horse to be placed in the UK, when he had come third out of three - last, which caused some comment. Then he broke down with a check ligament injury and they immediately gave him away to someone who planned to showjump him. And meanwhile they were using the forum to sell syndication of the next coloured racehorse that they were breeding and advertising their open days. I'm not sure 'shot down' really describes it? It was more like welfare issues caused by breeding for colour and then overstretching the horse, and breaking forum rules by advertising.
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Plus she became quite aggressive towards anyone who did not agree/pat her on the back, etc and then used illness as an excuse for the aggression.
 
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What about Nicola Wilson's Beltane Queen? She's doing pretty well and you can't say that eventing doesn't need physical talent at the top levels.
 
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