Sleep now my beautiful boy.

Marie1 said:
Which are the ones you would like to know about?

The one about the mare was my first. I had found the mare and been to see her agreed everything and those were some questions that my mum had asked that, not having had a full loan before I didn't know the answers to. So I asked people on here as to the general consensus.. Yes I agree that it is eerily coincidental that what I asked has become true but sometimes these things happen..

I did take insurance out on him, and did pay a years up front, I was aware of his age and that anything could happen, plus I would never take on any horse without having insurance as I know full well I would not have the money to pay a surprise vet bill that could be 4 figures. The previous home did not have any of their horses insured as the owner was a very well off man who owned the stables as a hobby, did not ride or groom himself and he has the disposable income (I assume, or he is just stupid) to deal with any surprise bills.

I haven't claimed on my insurance to have the horse pts. I paid for it myself as I had the money from christmas.

I also had no qualms about naming the yard I was on as I have nothing to hide, nor have I fabricated any of my story, therefore should anyone want to find out more from anyone they may know from the yards I was at they now have the info to do so.
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I still find it very strange that you didn't give the horse any longer! 6 days is no time at all. I don't think many people could make a decision to pts without having a vet out and a very poor prognosis.
Also why pay out of your own pocket to pts when you had him insured?
I'm sorry for being such a doubting Thomas on such an emotive subject, just curious.
 
Wagtail said:
Well we obviously have different values on the treatment of horses. I happen to think they should be seen by a vet before making judgements on their prognosis. But I respect owners rights to PTS any horse they wish for any reason. But I do resent it if they then try to say they loved the horse.
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You cannot possibly judge my values on horses from what I have written.
I would guess there is a hell of a lot more to this than meets the eye and I would suggest even you, in your vast wisdom, cannot really know the history on this horse.
IMO the only people responsible for him were his owners - it was down to them to decide what work he could/couldn't do, who to loan him to and what action to take when things went wrong.
I will let you return to your holier than thou postings now.
 
JingleSmells said:
Then what was the point of insurance. If you pay for insurance in order to cover surprise veterinary costs, why not use that to get a vet to treat the horse when it goes lame?

I am confused. Confused in many ways.

Confused because I absolutely hate to think badly of people and do not want to condemn the OP in case she is innocent in this. But also confused because I just cannot fathom the way this horse has just gone, without any vet care or investigation or even a chance of a different fate?
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Exactly that. I like to try think the best in everyone.. but.... You would get a vet out. Cant see why you wouldn't unless paying excess an issue.
 
ihatework said:
You cannot possibly judge my values on horses from what I have written.
I would guess there is a hell of a lot more to this than meets the eye and I would suggest even you, in your vast wisdom, cannot really know the history on this horse.
IMO the only people responsible for him were his owners - it was down to them to decide what work he could/couldn't do, who to loan him to and what action to take when things went wrong.
I will let you return to your holier than thou postings now.
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You are the one who is holier than thou. Telling me I have overstepped the line. That line is set by our own values. We obviously differ on them as I said.

ETA: This thread has upset me. I am not the only one who thinks this way.
 
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julie111 said:
I still find it very strange that you didn't give the horse any longer! 6 days is no time at all. I don't think many people could make a decision to pts without having a vet out and a very poor prognosis.
Also why pay out of your own pocket to pts when you had him insured?
I'm sorry for being such a doubting Thomas on such an emotive subject, just curious.
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I have explained why 6 days, that what i was advised by more than one source I had no reason not to believe and I did not know any better which I will admit it 100% my fault.

And I paid out of my won pocket as I rang an advice bureau and they advised me I am more likely to get some money from my years worth of insurance back if I did not claim on it, plus the excess was £150 and to have him pts was £240 so would not have been worth it really.

we are not talking about the 17.2hh mare i spoke about initally as her ownder pulled out last minute.. We are talking about the gelding who was advertised to me at 17.2hh but who my farrier actually measured when he came out (as he didnt believe me) at 18hh.. I think I mentioned it in a previous post.

I could have let them sign him over to me, and have the possibility of loosing everything (car and job) and the ability to look after him very very quickly, then have a lame horse and no means of looking after him. and I WILL NOT, pass on a lame horse to anyone as god knows what could have happened to him.. But I could not give him back as the owners would not have him they just said to put him to sleep. So as I don't really see what other option I had
 
The first post about this poor horse didn't sit right with me and I definetly couldn't "commiserate" with marie1. I find it all a bit heartbreaking for this poor horse. All those "happy memory photos!" What a crock of &&&&. You'd have had more respect if you just said you didn't want hassle of horse and was having him shot instead of all the heartbreaking decision stuff you sprouted.
 
Marie1 said:
I have explained why 6 days, that what i was advised by more than one source I had no reason not to believe and I did not know any better which I will admit it 100% my fault.

And I paid out of my won pocket as I rang an advice bureau and they advised me I am more likely to get some money from my years worth of insurance back if I did not claim on it, plus the excess was £150 and to have him pts was £240 so would not have been worth it really.

we are not talking about the 17.2hh mare i spoke about initally as her ownder pulled out last minute.. We are talking about the gelding who was advertised to me at 17.2hh but who my farrier actually measured when he came out (as he didnt believe me) at 18hh.. I think I mentioned it in a previous post.

I could have let them sign him over to me, and have the possibility of loosing everything (car and job) and the ability to look after him very very quickly, then have a lame horse and no means of looking after him. and I WILL NOT, pass on a lame horse to anyone as god knows what could have happened to him.. But I could not give him back as the owners would not have him they just said to put him to sleep. So as I don't really see what other option I had
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I say this just in case you are ever in, or know anyone in this situation again. Until a horse is signed over to you, the owners have no choice but to take the horse back. End of. That's not a dig, just saying for future. It sounds like you were bullied into a position, they had the legal obligation to their horse. You did not.
 
Marie1 said:
I have explained why 6 days, that what i was advised by more than one source I had no reason not to believe and I did not know any better which I will admit it 100% my fault.

And I paid out of my won pocket as I rang an advice bureau and they advised me I am more likely to get some money from my years worth of insurance back if I did not claim on it, plus the excess was £150 and to have him pts was £240 so would not have been worth it really.

we are not talking about the 17.2hh mare i spoke about initally as her ownder pulled out last minute.. We are talking about the gelding who was advertised to me at 17.2hh but who my farrier actually measured when he came out (as he didnt believe me) at 18hh.. I think I mentioned it in a previous post.

I could have let them sign him over to me, and have the possibility of loosing everything (car and job) and the ability to look after him very very quickly, then have a lame horse and no means of looking after him. and I WILL NOT, pass on a lame horse to anyone as god knows what could have happened to him.. But I could not give him back as the owners would not have him they just said to put him to sleep. So as I don't really see what other option I had
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Marie

You are not required to justify yourself.

As I hate work has said a line has been crossed here and there a few posters - wagtail in particular, who are bang out of order.

I would point out that another longstanding member has also posted with regard to Marie and the horse in question. Perhaps this should be read again by some of you
 
JingleSmells said:
I say this just in case you are ever in, or know anyone in this situation again. Until a horse is signed over to you, the owners have no choice but to take the horse back. End of. That's not a dig, just saying for future. It sounds like you were bullied into a position, they had the legal obligation to their horse. You did not.
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Absolutely, sounds like the owners knew exactly what they was doing. Passing the buck! Also my advice would be never listen to an experienced yard owner in my opinion, get a vet, have a proper examination.
However, If your job was secure until 25th and the horse was insured... well, you could've given him a vet visit and a bit longer couldn't you surely?

But all incidental now. He was a lovely boy, who no doubt tried his best for someone all his life. RIP whisper.
 
The horse we are talking about whisper was advertised to me as 17.2 but the farrier didnt believe me and remeasured him as 18hh. However the YO measured him as 17.2 (and a half) as well so we were never totally sure.

And yes my job is secure until the 25th but I am sitting waiting for the letter confirming what I am almost certain of, that I have been caught speeding for a second time, which as I understand means I am banned from driving with immediate effect. And what do I do with him then? There was noone at the yard that would take him off, I cannot pass on a lame horse. So then PTS? after her has been through all the rigamarole of cortazone injections and such?

JingleSmells said:
I say this just in case you are ever in, or know anyone in this situation again. Until a horse is signed over to you, the owners have no choice but to take the horse back. End of. That's not a dig, just saying for future. It sounds like you were bullied into a position, they had the legal obligation to their horse. You did not.
Click to expand...

I did not know that, my fault then for being ignorant to that fact. Well perhaps this whole situation has stemmed from me being 18 and ignorant to when I should be querying further into things (why was he retired at 14, at prime?), ignorant as to when I am advised to do things wrong (only trialling bute for 6 days), ignorant to my position legally (them being obliged to take the horse back) and ignorant as to the potential for a future of this horse (of which I believe there was none, as it was proven he couldnt be a happy hacker nor a field ornament). But what I know is that this horse had a relatively long but perhaps not long enough (17 years) life, during which he was pampered and loved, he was very clearly in a great deal of pain towards the end of his life, even with painkillers. So while many think I am in the wrong completely which you are more than entitled to think, I feel I had no choice and I seek comfort in that the horse is no longer in pain, nor enduring the mind blowing experience of box rest, field rest or not being able to do the work he was so enthusiastic about.
 
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Marie1 said:
I could have let them sign him over to me, and have the possibility of loosing everything (car and job) and the ability to look after him very very quickly, then have a lame horse and no means of looking after him. and I WILL NOT, pass on a lame horse to anyone as god knows what could have happened to him.. But I could not give him back as the owners would not have him they just said to put him to sleep. So as I don't really see what other option I had
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What was the rush, you wouldn't have been any worse off if you had given him a bit longer, at least long enough to see a vet. You might have had a sound horse signed over to you if you had given him a chance to come right. You could still have had him pts later on if/when you lost job and car (which isn't even certain). Seems a bit of a dramatic over reaction in a short space of time.
 
I'm sorry for your loss. You have some lovely photos to look back on and remember your time together by once the pain of your loss eases slightly. *hugs*
 
pony5 said:
What was the rush, you wouldn't have been any worse off if you had given him a bit longer, at least long enough to see a vet. You might have had a sound horse signed over to you if you had given him a chance to come right. You could still have had him pts later on if/when you lost job and car (which isn't even certain). Seems a bit of a dramatic over reaction in a short space of time.
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Yes but had I have kept him longer, he would have been through the rigamarole of being sedated for the vet as and when, cortazone injections, being poked and prodded about, all this time living in pain and in his box which was sending him off his rocker already..
 
Marie1 said:
Yes but had I have kept him longer, he would have been through the rigamarole of being sedated for the vet as and when, cortazone injections, being poked and prodded about, all this time living in pain and in his box which was sending him off his rocker already..
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How on earth would you know any of this unless you had a vet out ? - face it it coud have been as simple as an abcess - some horses look like they have a broken leg with this.
 
I feel a bit bad for the OP...

The horse is gone now, rightly or wrongly the horse can't have anymore 'wrong' doings done to him now.

Not going to write anymore but don't think OP horrid for putting this horse down.
 
cronkmooar said:
Marie

You are not required to justify yourself.

As I hate work has said a line has been crossed here and there a few posters - wagtail in particular, who are bang out of order.

I would point out that another longstanding member has also posted with regard to Marie and the horse in question. Perhaps this should be read again by some of you
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That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Presumably it's fine with you that people do not even call a vet out before making their own prognosis?

FWIW I think the owners are ultimately at fault.
 
Gingerwitch said:
How on earth would you know any of this unless you had a vet out ? - face it it coud have been as simple as an abcess - some horses look like they have a broken leg with this.
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That's what upsets me. I wouldn't PTS without knowing the longterm prognosis - one of mine was lame for couple of weeks, then he came sound and was fine for another 6 years until his passing away. But the decision has been made :-(
 
Marie1 said:
The horse we are talking about whisper was advertised to me as 17.2 but the farrier didnt believe me and remeasured him as 18hh. However the YO measured him as 17.2 (and a half) as well so we were never totally sure.

And yes my job is secure until the 25th but I am sitting waiting for the letter confirming what I am almost certain of, that I have been caught speeding for a second time, which as I understand means I am banned from driving with immediate effect. And what do I do with him then? There was noone at the yard that would take him off, I cannot pass on a lame horse. So then PTS? after her has been through all the rigamarole of cortazone injections and such?



I did not know that, my fault then for being ignorant to that fact. Well perhaps this whole situation has stemmed from me being 18 and ignorant to when I should be querying further into things (why was he retired at 14, at prime?), ignorant as to when I am advised to do things wrong (only trialling bute for 6 days), ignorant to my position legally (them being obliged to take the horse back) and ignorant as to the potential for a future of this horse (of which I believe there was none, as it was proven he couldnt be a happy hacker nor a field ornament). But what I know is that this horse had a relatively long but perhaps not long enough (17 years) life, during which he was pampered and loved, he was very clearly in a great deal of pain towards the end of his life, even with painkillers. So while many think I am in the wrong completely which you are more than entitled to think, I feel I had no choice and I seek comfort in that the horse is no longer in pain, nor enduring the mind blowing experience of box rest, field rest or not being able to do the work he was so enthusiastic about.
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It's only ignorant when you know it and choose to ignore it. If you never knew, you can't blame yourself.

Honestly, I have said throughout and supported you in the original thread. My opinion is that it would have been nice for him to be given more time to come right and find a more suitable home, but I am not stupid or mean and I would choose PTS over an uncertain future or a future of pain.

At least you know one thing...the people that have spoken out in questioning you on this thread have had only one thing at the centre of their concerns and that has been the horse. That is no bad thing IMO. It might be uncomfortable to some, not least you, but it does at least show that people here care about horses and through that questioning, you have learned things. Those things will help you and any horses in your care in the future.

We can all get wrapped up in these things very easily, but I really don't feel this needs to become anyone poster being upset or annoyed at any other poster as whether the support has been for you, the OP, or for the horse...both are admirable and neither should be condemned.
 
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Whilst I'm very sorry for your loss, I am amazed that such a huge decision would be made without even a visit from the vet. I feel very sorry for you that your YO, experienced as they say they are or the owners didn't step in - it is a huge decision to bear for anyone and not fair to lay it on young shoulders.
 
JingleSmells said:
It's only ignorant when you know it and choose to ignore it. If you never knew, you can't blame yourself.

Honestly, I have said throughout and supported you in the original thread. My opinion is that it would have been nice for him to be given more time to come right and find a more suitable home, but I am not stupid or mean and I would choose PTS over an uncertain future or a future of pain.

At least you know one thing...the people that have spoken out in questioning you on this thread have had only one thing at the centre of their concerns and that has been the horse. That is no bad think IMO. It might be uncomfortable to some, not least you, but it does at least show that people here care about horses and through that questioning, you have learned things. Those things will help you and any horses in your care in the future.

We can all get wrapped up in these things very easily, but I really don't feel this needs to become anyone poster being upset or annoyed at any other poster as whether the support has been for you, the OP, or for the horse...both are admirable and neither should be condemned.
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Good and wise post.
 
Gingerwitch said:
How on earth would you know any of this unless you had a vet out ? - face it it coud have been as simple as an abcess - some horses look like they have a broken leg with this.
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This is where the OP could be at the mercy of the kind of person that we all hear too much about...the very experienced YM giving her advice. I don't know that, just playing devils advocate. I've lost count of the times I've known much older and very mature adults being lead down incorrect paths by people who "think" they know everything, so it is not impossible to believe that the OP has been given very poor advice.
 
JingleSmells said:
This is where the OP could be at the mercy of the kind of person that we all hear too much about...the very experienced YM giving her advice. I don't know that, just playing devils advocate. I've lost count of the times I've known much older and very mature adults being lead down incorrect paths by people who "think" they know everything, so it is not impossible to believe that the OP has been given very poor advice.
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Indeed, a vet only. And needs to be a good Equine vet at that; not one of the small animal vets, had a few bad experiences with them in my time.
 
JingleSmells said:
It's only ignorant when you know it and choose to ignore it. If you never knew, you can't blame yourself.

Honestly, I have said throughout and supported you in the original thread. My opinion is that it would have been nice for him to be given more time to come right and find a more suitable home, but I am not stupid or mean and I would choose PTS over an uncertain future or a future of pain.

At least you know one thing...the people that have spoken out in questioning you on this thread have had only one thing at the centre of their concerns and that has been the horse. That is no bad thing IMO. It might be uncomfortable to some, not least you, but it does at least show that people here care about horses and through that questioning, you have learned things. Those things will help you and any horses in your care in the future.

We can all get wrapped up in these things very easily, but I really don't feel this needs to become anyone poster being upset or annoyed at any other poster as whether the support has been for you, the OP, or for the horse...both are admirable and neither should be condemned.
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I think this is a fair and concise way to summarise this thread. I have said all I have to say
 
From reading this thread (have not seen other threads started by op) it seems that this is a situation where the op has loaned a horse at a very young age and without a huge amount of experience under her belt. It would appear that she had sole financial responsibility for the horse. I think the owners of the horse knew he would break once in work - obviously we don't know whether or not this was disclosed to op before she took him on. Horse then did break and op was not in a financial position to handle this, coupled with the fact that she may not have the experience to deal with it either. When she asked owners to take him back, they passed the buck to her, taking advantage of her age and inexperience, resting the responsibility with her. Reading between the lines, I believe this horse may have had problems for some time, which should have been dealt with by his owners, instead if just loaning him out to an unsuitable home (no offence meant by this, just saying things as I interpret them here).

Lots of forum members have said over and over again on numerous threads that there is a worse fate for a horse than the bullet - I believe this to be true. Say the owners had taken horse back, what if they had buted up to the eyeballs and loaned out to someone else? Would that have been the right thing to do? This horse is no longer in pain, he is out of harm's way. Sadly there is nothing more can be done for him.

OP, I believe you took this horse on and found yourself out of your depth with this situation. This is not meant to sound cruel in any way, just honest advice, but in the future please think very carefully about whether you are in a position to take another horse on. Any horse can need veterinary attention at any time in its life - you need to be prepared for this financially. If you cannot care for a horse for better or worse then it may be best to wait until you are in a position to be able to do so.

RIP Whisper x
 
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