Slow hoof changes..

[Michen]

Such a long story but young horse who came from Ireland with awful feet. Then had a mild soft tissue injury. I took the shoes off last summer and he was turned away then bought back, rehabbed and then another break, now back in. His feet look better on the outside but I’m a little disappointed with the recent x days (though my vet tells me not to be). I was hoping to see a better change on them given the shape of the hoof is so much better.

Really struggling to get him landing heel first out of boots. It’s constant thrush infections (diet is as barefoot friendly as possible and the hoof horn quality is far better). Tried everything, iodine, cleantrax soaks, field paste, sole paint, NT dry, salt scrubs. Got him heel first in summer/autumn and then winter struck and it’s just impossible. He’s on a deep, dry straw bed with pellets underneath and his feet are always dry in the morning. Turned out during day. So of course his heels aren’t de contracting as I’d like them too.

I think he may have improved his sole thickness through or am I clutching at straws!? Any other thrush suggestions gratefully received. He’s a fatty and on soaked hay, a handful of nuts to carry equimins hoof mender. Reluctant to change that as I did see a huge improvement in the quality of the hoof horn which was very poor last year.

He also had very slightly negative HPA behind. I don’t have the x Rays for the hinds yet but they are no longer negative but still flat and he is still lacking heel (pics below) though the toe is shorter. Still bullnosed so I was relieved to see the angles had improved on x ray although the bull nosing is more subtle than the photo makes it look, he was standing a bit oddly in every way at the time!

Maybe I am expecting too much too soon… and we won’t see further improvements until summer when we can beat the thrush. I know it’s going in the right direction but it just seems slow. Before x ray/photo on top, recent below. I don't know how to get the hinds to improve quicker as he's sound- so I can't pin it on an underlying problem. It was also equal in both hinds despite him only being injured in one. Maybe it'll just take years rather than months..

I have a new farrier for him who is very forward thinking and absolutely on board with keeping the shoes off.


Fronts



Hinds

 

[I'm Dun]

If I was trimming him I'd be bringing the toes back on the fronts a little bit more. Could you do this yourself? I did mine very gently every couple of days in the early stages and it made a huge difference.

Do you have any sole shots? I'd be interested to see the bars in particular and also where the heels are from underneath.

 

[Michen]

If I was trimming him I'd be bringing the toes back on the fronts a little bit more. Could you do this yourself? I did mine very gently every couple of days in the early stages and it made a huge difference.

Do you have any sole shots? I'd be interested to see the bars in particular and also where the heels are from underneath.

We have to be really careful doing that as he easily gets sore. I don’t think the back of his hoof is quite ready for it. Both farrier and vet on Monday said there’s nothing to trim there right now without making him uncomfortable.

Ilk get some recent sole shuts.

 

[HappyHollyDays]

Give Mark Johnson a call, he charges for consultancy work now as he is in such demand but he will tell you honestly what the issues are and whether what are trying to achieve is feasible. If you are all sensitive to being told the truth then he’s not the person for you because he will tell you straight but personally I don’t think there is a more knowledgable barefoot Farrier in the country.

 

[Hallo2012]

one of mine tends towards coke can feet with contracted heels by nature so also always fighting a tiny bit of thrush and ive found the hedgewitch oil applied religiously twice daily has helped the most out of everything i tried and heels have really opened up.

 

[SEL]

A friend has had real success putting her little cob mare through 2 cycles of stick on shoes (except they did nail because glue vs mud....) I can't remember the name but they cover the whole of the bottom of the foot. Her farrier is very forward thinking and said she just needed something to protect the heel and give it a chance to develop. She's now back barefoot but boots for hacking and much happier.

 

[HappyHollyDays]

A friend has had real success putting her little cob mare through 2 cycles of stick on shoes (except they did nail because glue vs mud....) I can't remember the name but they cover the whole of the bottom of the foot. Her farrier is very forward thinking and said she just needed something to protect the heel and give it a chance to develop. She's now back barefoot but boots for hacking and much happier.

They are called Duplo.

 

[PurBee]

The rear hoof has a better heel angle, more heel showing than underslung…definitely different to the before pic, thats progress, as underslung rears are a PITA! The bull-nosed front wall of that rear hoof has developed though so id be talking to your trimmer about that toe.
The front is progressing too, better angle.

Sometimes it is a waiting game, going slow. But if he’s sore with those feet consider other options.


When we remember that the hoof capsule is a whole shell, all fixed in place due to its connections to underlying live-cell structures, and the sole also fixed in place - we can see how any uneven growth stresses will pinch and pull the entire hoof shell, and can easily cause soreness/bulges/flares/cracks etc. - then the uneven wall goes on to distort more and cause more uneven growth etc….it soon gets very circular when we do a wee bit here and a wee bit there, so as not to cause trim soreness.
Altho’ dont forget, these uneven capsule growth pressures can cause walking barefoot soreness themselves. Hence why many horses walk out of a lifetime of shoes sore, as shoes hide a multitude of uneven capsule growth problems, by ‘fixing’ the capsule, not allowing as much flex as barefoot.

It’s good/best to try the modest trim approach always, but when its been a while and the uneven growth continues, i think other options have to be considered.

Only when the places of the hoof causing most pulling/pinching/uneven pressure are relieved of their tightness, can the hoof growth be corrected. Sometimes this takes a ‘radical’ trim of taking the walls to absolute sole level, and using xrays, taking the toes back, so the front wall also isnt pulling the capsule forward. Depending how the horse is afterwards, depends on the protection required after such trim.
(no, im talking about a strasser radical trim of carving out sole, cutting heels etc! Just walls right down to sole, bevelled well so theyre not taking much ground contact, and using xrays to definitely get the toe right)

My mares fronts had long toes. For ages i did the modest approach. Still not ideal. Her toes were long so i left side and heels walls to bear ground pressure (than dump her on her soles fully), and ‘radically’ took back her toe walls, completely relieving that toe part of the capsule from pulling forward, and baring ground weight. I was prepared to provide protection in case of soreness, but she walked away from that trim with a lovely relaxed long stride! I was amazed, but realised after by relieving the toe of its ground pressure the pinching/pulling of that toe part of the hoof wall was relieved to the rest of the capsule, and hence her soreness relieved.

If you have the resources of a good trimmer who also does composite shoes and poly-flex infill to protect the sole if necessary - i’d go the route of a radical trim to relieve the walls of distorted pressure.

 

[Michen]

He's not sore on them in the sense of he's heel first in boots which he's hacked in.

But toe first on concrete/barefoot. Whereas in the summer he wasn't so it's definitely the thrush.

 

[ycbm]

Second Mark Johnson, lovely man, but with all you've tried already I'd be looking at some metabolic cause Michen.

I think my first port of call would be to try him on a high protein diet, as I have heard of similar issues due to inability to absorb enough protein through the gut.
.

 

[Birker2020]

As for thrush treatments our vet swears by iodine mixed with eucalyptus as the latter is antimicrobial. I used it regulary on Baileys feet and he never had thrush again and touch wood neither has Lari.

Also Keratex hoof hardener which I use on my horse will also act as antifungal/bacterial.

 

[Hallo2012]

Second Mark Johnson, lovely man, but with all you've tried already I'd be looking at some metabolic cause Michen.

I think my first port of call would be to try him on a high protein diet, as I have heard of similar issues due to inability to absorb enough protein through the gut.
.

this is interesting. have you got any links i can geek at

 

[j1ffy]

Second Mark Johnson, lovely man, but with all you've tried already I'd be looking at some metabolic cause Michen.

I think my first port of call would be to try him on a high protein diet, as I have heard of similar issues due to inability to absorb enough protein through the gut.
.

I'd also take another look at the diet. I know you said you're keen to keep it as-is but it can make a big, and quick, difference. Two of mine are usually rock-crunching but if put on even a handful of chaff (of any variety) they go footy, just an example of how something that seems tiny can have an impact. YCBM is far more experienced than me so I'd follow her advice; a friend of mine has to load one of hers with protein to keep him barefoot and self-trimming - they do BE and tough hacking so it's clearly working for her and he's also a good doer.

I did read that additional copper and zinc can reduce thrush but when I upped the amounts a tiny bit my usually greedy horse wouldn't touch his feed so I gave up on that! But might be worth a go too.

 

[Michen]

Second Mark Johnson, lovely man, but with all you've tried already I'd be looking at some metabolic cause Michen.

I think my first port of call would be to try him on a high protein diet, as I have heard of similar issues due to inability to absorb enough protein through the gut.
.

He's a fatty (well, he's a good weight- because it's well managed but he would be a fatty!), I'm not sure I'd want to feed him anything more. He's been tested for EMS and cushings.

There are improvements so it's not like things aren't going in the right direction- I'd just like it to be quicker! And to get rid of the dreaded thrush. But the hoof quality is so much better.

I have tried Mark Johnson before but think he's Northampton way, I'll drop him another message as could always trailer him up for a consult.

 

[ycbm]

this is interesting. have you got any links i can geek at

It's all anecdotal I'm afraid, but the worst one I heard of was a mare called Bailey belonging to Rockley Farm, years and years ago. It's possible her pictures are still on the blog. She had the worst cracks I've ever seen that would not resolve until she got a protein absorption issue diagnosed.
.

 

[ycbm]

He's a fatty (well, he's a good weight- because it's well managed but he would be a fatty!), I'm not sure I'd want to feed him anything more. He's been tested for EMS and cushings.

There are improvements so it's not like things aren't going in the right direction- I'd just like it to be quicker! And to get rid of the dreaded thrush. But the hoof quality is so much better.

I have tried Mark Johnson before but think he's Northampton way, I'll drop him another message as could always trailer him up for a consult.

That may all be part of the same metabolic issue, M. Has he been tested for EMS, because that weakens feet badly, ime.
.

 

[Hallo2012]

I'd also take another look at the diet. I know you said you're keen to keep it as-is but it can make a big, and quick, difference. Two of mine are usually rock-crunching but if put on even a handful of chaff (of any variety) they go footy, just an example of how something that seems tiny can have an impact. YCBM is far more experienced than me so I'd follow her advice; a friend of mine has to load one of hers with protein to keep him barefoot and self-trimming - they do BE and tough hacking so it's clearly working for her and he's also a good doer.

I did read that additional copper and zinc can reduce thrush but when I upped the amounts a tiny bit my usually greedy horse wouldn't touch his feed so I gave up on that! But might be worth a go too.

can i ask which protein source she uses?

thanks

 

[Michen]

Mark said he can't help Shame

 

[Hallo2012]

It's all anecdotal I'm afraid, but the worst one I heard of was a mare called Bailey belonging to Rockley Farm, years and years ago. It's possible her pictures are still on the blog. She had the worst cracks I've ever seen that would not resolve until she got a protein absorption issue diagnosed.
.

will google

 

[Michen]

That may all be part of the same metabolic issue, M. Has he been tested for EMS, because that weakens feet badly, ime.
.

Yes as above he's been tested for both that and Cushings.

 

[j1ffy]

can i ask which protein source she uses?

thanks

I'm afraid I can't recall! It's a while since we had the discussion but I'll see if I can find out.

ETA: I've found the previous conversation on FB - she aims to feed hay that is as high in protein as possible (easier said than done) and also switched sugar beet for alfalfa. Copra and linseed are also apparently quite high in protein. I know others add whey protein

 

[paddy555]

Really struggling to get him landing heel first out of boots. It’s constant thrush infections (diet is as barefoot friendly as possible and the hoof horn quality is far better). Tried everything, iodine, cleantrax soaks, field paste, sole paint, NT dry, salt scrubs. . So of course his heels aren’t de contracting as I’d like them too.

















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Hinds

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I would clean out every tiny bit of the frog, grooves and especially the central sulchus with cotton wool pushed in then soak in copper sulphate lastly scrub them out with the copper sulphate water.

Sticking my neck out in a minority of one I don't go too much on the diet theory and thrush and never have done. I have never been able to relate the two. If diet is the cause how can the same horse have lousy frogs on the front and perfect ones behind.
The thing I have always been able to relate is the ground conditions wet and warm. This autumn I think is especially bad as in many places it is just so warm. I would expect mine to be on cold frozen ground in Feb. yet they are on warm, wet grass. We would by now have had several weeks of cold yet nothing.

 

[tristar]

grass makes the feet grow faster, high protein spring grass

i know someone who breeds connies i was not over impressed by their feet to be honest

are the frogs at the same level as heel walls?

 

[HappyHollyDays]

Mark said he can't help Shame

I’m sorry he couldn’t help

 

[Michen]

grass makes the feet grow faster, high protein spring grass

i know someone who breeds connies i was not over impressed by their feet to be honest

are the frogs at the same level as heel walls?

True my other Connie has fantastic feet but he was lame in all four of them as a 5 year old and had awful seedy toe.

Erm not sure what you mean.. I’ll look!

 

[HappyHollyDays]

are the frogs at the same level as heel walls?

Erm not sure what you mean.. I’ll look!

Check the bars, if are higher than the rest of the wall then the frog won’t be touching the ground correctly. All the pressure will be on two small points and the heel can’t touch the ground as it should do.

 

[Michen]

Check the bars, if are higher than the rest of the wall then the frog won’t be touching the ground correctly. All the pressure will be on two small points and the heel can’t touch the ground as it should do.

Gotcha! so if they are higher do I get my rasp out.. eeek.

 

[HappyHollyDays]

I’ve only seen then taken down with a knife but I can’t see why a rasp wouldn’t work. It will be fairly obvious if they are higher.

 

[Hallo2012]

Gotcha! so if they are higher do I get my rasp out.. eeek.

you need a knife. rasp wont get in to them.

F Dick knives are strong, sharp and cheap.

 

[IrishMilo]

I don't doubt you that he has thrush if you say he does (I swear by apple cider vinegar - I don't like using bleaches/chemicals) but consider as someone else said how the bars are growing. If they're not at least level or below outer wall height they could be bruising his soles. Would be worth taking them back to see if you can see any bruising IMO.

NB - just seen other posters have beat me to it! I wouldn't advise doing it yourself for now.