snatching at the grass while leading.

Rosie'smum

Rosie'smum

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Rosie has started snatching at grass as im leading. She doesnt do it while ridden even in knee high grass. But she is using me leading her as a walkimg pic nic!
I use a rope halter and can stop her most of the time but shes so quick. I just don't know how to teach her to not not snatch, this is where I need you lovely lot :-)
 
Mine used to do this so I lead by holding the noseband of the headcollar with right hand (leading from the near side) It means you have more control of the head. Hope this helps
 
Would suggest roping her nose, or using a 'Be Nice' type head collar, and maintaining consistency!!! :)
 
I was doing that but she's just not getting the message! Ill keep at it and see if she eventually gets the idea.
 
Oh it annoys the hell out of my when my cob does this (he only does it when he's really hungry) - I give him a sharp tug on the lead rope and say 'ah ah ah', he soon gets the message
 
Its very irritating as she is so quick to do it. And it annoys me more as its my pony doing it now. Ive always moaned about my friend letting her do it so they pull her everywhere!
 
What I find helps, is to try and catch them before they actually do it. Once my cob has a big mouthful of grass he will do his best to ignore me. But if I give him a sharp little tug when his head is on the way down to the grass, it has much better effect :)
 
Yeah even though i hate doing it i think they only way of catching her in the act quickly is holding her halter. She got a big mouthfull I soon put my hand in and pulled it all back out!
 
Personally if its an ongoing thing I would take a whip when leading and as soon as she pulls to get the grass just a light tap to remind her what she should be doing. My youngster started doing it when food was about (my oh brings food out while I lead him) a light tap when he went to swing round, I had to do it twice then he walked to the field nicely. Just needed reminding of him manners. And it was nothing more than a tap.
 
When you yank and tug (and flick whip), the horse just learns they have to be quicker/sneakier. Instead, it is a much better idea to teach the horse to eat on cue, and then only give the cue when you are happy that it's a good time to eat. This way, you work *with* the horse's motivation, instead of punishing the attempt but doing nothing to change their desire to find increasingly clever ways to outwit you.

What you do is get your horse and find a patch of (not too enticing) grass. Walk up to the grass, say "eat" and slack the lead rein. Allow two or three mouthfuls, then start to apply pressure to the lead rope again (it helps if you've trained a "head up" cue previously in the absence of grass). When horse lifts head, walk off a few steps, say "eat" again and slack rope. Repeat. Do this 10 or 15 times - a couple of times a day if you can - until the horse has learned that (a) they will get some grass and (b) what the cue means. They don't get to eat at any other time, and you gradually increase the leading interval. It's just a matter of training - you train it the same way you train anything - by teaching the horse a cue, and helping them to learn what you want (rather than trying to guess what you don't want).

IF you work this system, you get a horse you can lead across fields of knee high grass without having to keep a short rope, carry a whip or yank.
 
WelshRuby said:
Mine used to do this so I lead by holding the noseband of the headcollar with right hand (leading from the near side) It means you have more control of the head. Hope this helps
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Be very careful doing this as should the horse rear up it has been known for people to lose fingers.

Lead in a bridle for a while and be on your toes when leading her.
 
Brightbay said:
When you yank and tug (and flick whip), the horse just learns they have to be quicker/sneakier. Instead, it is a much better idea to teach the horse to eat on cue, and then only give the cue when you are happy that it's a good time to eat. This way, you work *with* the horse's motivation, instead of punishing the attempt but doing nothing to change their desire to find increasingly clever ways to outwit you.

What you do is get your horse and find a patch of (not too enticing) grass. Walk up to the grass, say "eat" and slack the lead rein. Allow two or three mouthfuls, then start to apply pressure to the lead rope again (it helps if you've trained a "head up" cue previously in the absence of grass). When horse lifts head, walk off a few steps, say "eat" again and slack rope. Repeat. Do this 10 or 15 times - a couple of times a day if you can - until the horse has learned that (a) they will get some grass and (b) what the cue means. They don't get to eat at any other time, and you gradually increase the leading interval. It's just a matter of training - you train it the same way you train anything - by teaching the horse a cue, and helping them to learn what you want (rather than trying to guess what you don't want).

IF you work this system, you get a horse you can lead across fields of knee high grass without having to keep a short rope, carry a whip or yank.
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We work in exactly the same way... only in our case we call it 'snacking'. The girls lead sweetly almost to the paddock gate, and as we approach I'll stop and tell them it's OK to snack. They have a few mouthfulls of grass, then it's through the gate and on to the paddock. Thing is they actually want to earn that snack, so will make sure that they're on their best behaviour. It's so much easier, and far less trouble to work that way than to have to hold headcollars or threaten with whips.... Why make life more complicated than it already is.
 
Tnavas said:
But the reward for walking politely to the paddock should be being turned out.
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No, the paddock and their time therein is not a reward, it's their right... a right that all horses should be granted, and a right mine would be given were they the most misbehaved horses on the planet. The reward is for their behaviour on the journey. If you think of the paddock as a reward, then surely they would associate their last actions i.e. standing calmly while headcollars were removed, as being the behaviour that brought about the reward.
 
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Urban Horse said:
No, the paddock and their time therein is not a reward, it's their right... a right that all horses should be granted, and a right mine would be given were they the most misbehaved horses on the planet. The reward is for their behaviour on the journey. If you think of the paddock as a reward, then surely they would associate their last actions i.e. standing calmly while headcollars were removed, as being the behaviour that brought about the reward.
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Sorry but you are just teaching your horse bad manners. Every action that is repeated is eventually learned and the horse expects you to allow that to happen.
While you think it is their right to go in the paddock they look at the paddock as a treat, it is you that thinks the snacking is a treat.

Consider what may happen in years to come, you have sold the horse and the new owners do not wish the horse to snack on the way. He gets punished, growled at etc. is that fair to the horse?

The reward for walking smartly beside you is to be turned out in the paddock and when in the gate is turned to face the gate and given a treat, such as a carrot or apple or mint.

You now have a well mannered horse that walks politely to the paddock and a it's quietly at the gate while you release him.
 
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Tnavas said:
Sorry but you are just teaching your horse bad manners. Every action that is repeated is eventually learned and the horse expects you to allow that to happen.
While you think it is their right to go in the paddock they look at the paddock as a treat, it is you that thinks the snacking is a treat.

Consider what may happen in years to come, you have sold the horse and the new owners do not wish the horse to snack on the way. He gets punished, growled at etc. is that fair to the horse?

The reward for walking smartly beside you is to be turned out in the paddock and when in the gate is turned to face the gate and given a treat, such as a carrot or apple or mint.

You now have a well mannered horse that walks politely to the paddock and a it's quietly at the gate while you release him.
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That's why (a) it never takes place in the same spot, and (b) a lot of days we don't stop at all..... It varies, we don't want to start a habit, or train bad behaviour in, do we, Oh and (c) they're never going to be sold, though we do know people that would have them in an instant. The strange thing is though, we don't have any problems while leading, either in or out, nor do we have problems with fresh grass, seasons or catching them.... In fact we don't catch them, they catch us, always wanting to be involved when we appear.

It's a shame that most of the replies to the OP's query involved increasing levels of pressure and borderline threats of violence, when there are far easier ways to work through this problem.
 
AdorableAlice said:
It is called manners, not snacking, rewarding or having rights.

Halter break them properly and teach them manners.
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Manners will only come from a horse for two reasons, they're either taught to fear the consequences of not offering manners, or manners and respect are given to them and they offer the same in return. What method do you feel most comfortable using?

I wouldn't usually offer this, but anytime you're passing through Kent at 6a.m.ish, (They're living out at the moment, so late autumn/early spring is best) and I'll let my mares talk for me....
 
Never ever think that you may not have to sell your horse - circumstances change all the time and one day you may be faced with that situation.

Horses do not understand that you are giving them manners and respect and yes sometimes you do have to be tougher than others. Mine are very well behaved they don't barge or yank the rope out of my hand - but there have been times when a sharp reminder has been given.

They also greet me at the gate neighing everytime I go to the paddock.

Like kids some are easier to train than others. I have rarely used a stick on Sarah except when under saddle and she's not listened to my leg aids.
 
Urban Horse said:
Manners will only come from a horse for two reasons, they're either taught to fear the consequences of not offering manners, or manners and respect are given to them and they offer the same in return. What method do you feel most comfortable using?

I wouldn't usually offer this, but anytime you're passing through Kent at 6a.m.ish, (They're living out at the moment, so late autumn/early spring is best) and I'll let my mares talk for me....
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I think there may be a huge age and experience gap between yourself and me. I respect your thoughts and no doubt your mares are wonderful horses. Are there Parelli ideals in your words.

Here is an example of a horse that had been allowed to graze/snatch whilst being handled or moved. 16h 6yrs old maxi cob with heavy horse breeding and highly intelligent. I bought it knowing it had topsides of the vendor.

Leading it resembled a Penelope and Kipper cartoon. It had no idea of how to behave in a gateway, no spacial awareness, it could not step across or around, it used the shoulder to move me, maintained a rigid neck throughout and stuck its face in the grass from the moment we reached a field.

The horse was basically dangerous to handle on the ground. I retrained her to the halter using both a dually and a rope halter, taught pressure and release and today the horse is sweet and easy to take anywhere. She is allowed to graze in hand when I say, for instance at a show or after work. This was training that should have been done at yearling stage. If everyone had the knowledge to raise a youngster properly there would be far less grief when the horses find themselves in their next homes.

Thank you for the offer but I have no need to see your horses or be taught by them.
 
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Urban Horse said:
It's a shame that most of the replies to the OP's query involved increasing levels of pressure and borderline threats of violence, when there are far easier ways to work through this problem.
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seriously?!? a tap with a whip that doesn't hurt me when I do it is 'borderline threat of violence' and funnily enough I used it Friday and yesterday he walked in and out perfectly as he knew what was expected of him.

I was once told (and I have never forgotten this) a horse is asked to work one or two hours a day, for that time they should behave the other 20 odd hours of the day is there time, you pay a lot to keep them and work many more hours to do so. You aren't asking a lot of them. But they have to be taught what is right and what isn't other wise they will never learn, being dragged by half a ton isn't fun and can seriously injury someone.

fwiw I was smacked as a child and don't live in fear of my parents as I now know how I should behave as I was taught!!
 
AdorableAlice said:
I think there may be a huge age and experience gap between yourself and me. I respect your thoughts and no doubt your mares are wonderful horses. Are there Parelli ideals in your words.

Here is an example of a horse that had been allowed to graze/snatch whilst being handled or moved. 16h 6yrs old maxi cob with heavy horse breeding and highly intelligent. I bought it knowing it had topsides of the vendor.

Leading it resembled a Penelope and Kipper cartoon. It had no idea of how to behave in a gateway, no spacial awareness, it could not step across or around, it used the shoulder to move me, maintained a rigid neck throughout and stuck its face in the grass from the moment we reached a field.

The horse was basically dangerous to handle on the ground. I retrained her to the halter using both a dually and a rope halter, taught pressure and release and today the horse is sweet and easy to take anywhere. She is allowed to graze in hand when I say, for instance at a show or after work. This was training that should have been done at yearling stage. If everyone had the knowledge to raise a youngster properly there would be far less grief when the horses find themselves in their next homes.

Thank you for the offer but I have no need to see your horses or be taught by them.
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Totally agree Alice - well said
 
Tnavas said:
But the reward for walking politely to the paddock should be being turned out.
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No, in fact the way you determine whether something has been rewarding is whether the behaviour is repeated, not whether you (the trainer) determine that something *should* be a reward. You could offer me the reward of an all inclusive holiday on a cruise ship as a reward for performing particularly well at work, and you would see me working hard to make sure I didn't have to go ;)

If being turned out is rewarding walking politely, then none of the horses mentioned above would be snatching at grass, being walked with short ropes, need flicks with whips as "reminders"... what is actually happening is that, as is the case with every species, some rewards are more "salient" or important at a given time than the others. For these horses, grass is not only more salient than being turned out, but it is sufficiently important that the horses are ignoring the owners' increasingly frantic attempts to overcome the behaviour.

When a reward is that strong, why not use it, rather than try to pretend it's not happening because you don't believe it *should* be, and instead employ punishment - universally acknowledged to be a less effective training mechanism.

I am sure everybody thinks they came to no harm being smacked as a child. I wonder how these people would feel being smacked by their employer?
Horses work on the same basis - in terms of learning and training - as any other species including humans. You just need to understand that rewards work better than punishments (your punishment hasn't worked if you have written above "I hardly ever have to do it now"), that whether something is a reward is determined by the animal, not the trainer, and that if something is a sufficiently powerful reward to override all your attempts to drag the horse away, it's a sufficiently powerful reward to use to train the behaviour you want.
 
Brightbay said:
No, in fact the way you determine whether something has been rewarding is whether the behaviour is repeated, not whether you (the trainer) determine that something *should* be a reward. You could offer me the reward of an all inclusive holiday on a cruise ship as a reward for performing particularly well at work, and you would see me working hard to make sure I didn't have to go ;)

If being turned out is rewarding walking politely, then none of the horses mentioned above would be snatching at grass, being walked with short ropes, need flicks with whips as "reminders"... what is actually happening is that, as is the case with every species, some rewards are more "salient" or important at a given time than the others. For these horses, grass is not only more salient than being turned out, but it is sufficiently important that the horses are ignoring the owners' increasingly frantic attempts to overcome the behaviour.

When a reward is that strong, why not use it, rather than try to pretend it's not happening because you don't believe it *should* be, and instead employ punishment - universally acknowledged to be a less effective training mechanism.

I am sure everybody thinks they came to no harm being smacked as a child. I wonder how these people would feel being smacked by their employer?
Horses work on the same basis - in terms of learning and training - as any other species including humans. You just need to understand that rewards work better than punishments (your punishment hasn't worked if you have written above "I hardly ever have to do it now"), that whether something is a reward is determined by the animal, not the trainer, and that if something is a sufficiently powerful reward to override all your attempts to drag the horse away, it's a sufficiently powerful reward to use to train the behaviour you want.
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Excuse me but get your facts correct, I have at no time said" I hardly ever have to do it now"!

Just watch horse talk to each other, to gain respect they bite and kick. Once they have sorted out who is superior to who there are few scraps.

Hopefully when you are training you get want you want without having to resort to forceful behaviour.
Unfortunately the world is not perfect. For example. Some years ago I owned a lovely TB mare, she was extremely well behaved but would get towey on the way back to the paddock, we had to walk along the side of a main road for 200yards, because she was like this I would lead her in a lunge cavesson. One day she was being extremely strong to the point of being potentially dangerous. She would not slow and I reached around and clocked her one on the front of her nose with the handle of my whip. She never ever got towey again. She ignored the requests to walk quietly so the consequence was stronger. Exactly how one horse would discipline another. She was not scared but learned that I was in charge.
Each horse is different therefore you treat each differently.
A horse out of control is dangerous, and a horse that grabs at grass is disrespectful and out of control.
 
I normally just flick the end of the lead rope at the girth area, like giving them a little kick, and they usually stop trying to eat after a couple tries
 
I have been using a clicker for some time with her for various things- clipping legs, hogging her forelock (would never be able to do this otherwise), a few tricks, and some schooling movements. Ive also done it while leading around the yard and she now moves out of my space and has become very nice on the ground. Recently her grass has gotten low, but she is a fatty, so I can understand her desire to want to eat the long grass but it needs to be when I say its ok to.

I tried to use my clicker with her while leading through long grass and failed, her desire I think was too much for her. (I know that is not an excuse for her not behaving)
She is generally well mannered up until recently. She waits for a signal to eat her dinner and waits patiently while I tie haynets, even if she thinks shes starving :)

I have hit her on the nose but she ignores that.
 
AdorableAlice said:
I think there may be a huge age and experience gap between yourself and me. I respect your thoughts and no doubt your mares are wonderful horses. Are there Parelli ideals in your words.

Here is an example of a horse that had been allowed to graze/snatch whilst being handled or moved. 16h 6yrs old maxi cob with heavy horse breeding and highly intelligent. I bought it knowing it had topsides of the vendor.

Leading it resembled a Penelope and Kipper cartoon. It had no idea of how to behave in a gateway, no spacial awareness, it could not step across or around, it used the shoulder to move me, maintained a rigid neck throughout and stuck its face in the grass from the moment we reached a field.

The horse was basically dangerous to handle on the ground. I retrained her to the halter using both a dually and a rope halter, taught pressure and release and today the horse is sweet and easy to take anywhere. She is allowed to graze in hand when I say, for instance at a show or after work. This was training that should have been done at yearling stage. If everyone had the knowledge to raise a youngster properly there would be far less grief when the horses find themselves in their next homes.

Thank you for the offer but I have no need to see your horses or be taught by them.
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Firstly an apology to the OP, I'm more than a little sorry that your initial request for advice has largely been forgotten, but I think if you follow Brightbay's advice you'll do well.

My age?... well, I'll be 61 next year though quite what that has to do with it, I'm not really sure, but never mind. I started out when I was about 10, taking lessons from a Romany Horseman, who only having daughters had no-one to pass his knowledge on to. Of course, as I'm not Romany, he wasn't allowed by his 'lore' to reveal all his secrets.... Then I went on to learn from people who had spent their working lives with horses, ploughmen, miners, a woman who was born and raised on a barge, etc etc. Most recently (10/15 years or so) I have become more interested in exactly how horses learn, how they view their world and their interactions with humans.

The bit in the middle was spent largely working with and repairing horses like the ones you mention, and it was from those confused unfortunates that I learnt the most.... Not from guy in a cowboy hat! The only thing that upsets me about those years is that those horses had to suffer before they eventually ended up in my care. I don't use 'be nices', 'pressure halters', nor 'thin rope halters', prefering instead to rely on soft leather or woven headcollars, patience and timing... In essence I always start where I want to end up. In addition I always try to work with the horse's natural instincts, doing so make life far sweeter and easier on all parties involved.... and I've found as I've aged that I feel the need to control horses less and less, whether that's confidence, experience or old age creeping on I don't know, but I do know that asking for less control, actually gives me more control.

It's a shame that you can't visit the girls, I always look forward to visiting other people's horses and watching their methods... you're never too old to learn.

Thank you for your comments. Best of luck with your 'maxi cob'.
 
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