So disheartened with youngster and progress. Advice needed!

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DalesDiva

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I could really use some advice/constructive criticism/kick up the bum regarding my progress with my New Forest gelding.

He has just turned 6 and I have had him since he was 2 and a half. Until last May he was in a different part of the country to where I live under the care of my friend. He only got ridden once a month when I came home to visit (I backed him at 3 with the help of a BHS instructor friend)

I moved him nearer to where I live in May 2105. He is now on full grass livery at a lovely yard with great facilities.

When he first came down I could barely tack him up/ride him in a circle in the school/basically do anything with him. I have worked extremely hard with him and he has improved a lot, so I'm quite proud of that.

The trouble is he still remains utterly unpredictable. On a good day he will hack out with almost no issues (apart from the odd nap, spook etc) and he will go in the school and work quite well. His schooling is progressing really slowly though; despite me getting almost weekly lessons on him.

However on a bad day he is an absolute nightmare; especially in the school. He will bolt, buck to the heavens, nap, spin and basically do anything to get out of work. There's also no predicting what sort of behaviour he is going to display. One day he can be really good and the next day so badly behaved he's borderline dangerous.

I absolutely adore him and would never sell him on. I'm just feeling so down about the fact we are still having these battles after a year. I don't expect perfection, but riding him is a constant fight. I appreciate he's had a tricky start and youngsters are hard work, but I didn't bank on it being this tough! I've spent a small fortune on lessons, lunging and getting my instructor to school him. He's injured me a couple of times as well. I hurt my leg falling off 6 weeks ago and it's still not better. Then yesterday he reared in the school (a new trick that I wasn't prepared for) and I came off and landed on my tail bone! I can barely walk today, and at 37 I don't bounce like I did 20 years ago!

Will it get better? Do I persevere or retire him to be a very young and pretty field ornament? I'm a pretty brave rider, but I'm starting to worry he will really hurt me some time soon! It also really depresses me as I feel if I was a better rider then we wouldn't have so many issues. I really worry I'm not good enough to deal with him, and it feels on a bit of a downward spiral right now :(
 
Oh sorry to read this, I remember this so well when my old horse was young, she was so difficult and unpredictable you never knew what would happen and she was big and powerful! I did get launched a few times but eventually she turned out to be the safest most amazing horse I ever had! Later in her years she even taught my 6 year old niece to ride and I would never have thought that could happen.
If you're finding it too much rather than think about giving up are there any good pros you could pay regularly to ride for you just to get through this stage?
 
He's had back, teeth etc checked. There was nothing untoward found. The vet says he's in great shape!

Farma. My instructor is an amazing rider and I do get her to school him for me when I can afford it. The trouble is I'm working on a shoestring budget, so I often don't have the money available. I have another youngster as well (not backed yet) so money is very tight!

I'm really, really hoping that he turns out well in the end like your horse did. Your story gives me hope! :) He is an incredibly difficult character. My instructor says I'm doing well to persevere so long and that most people would have given up by now.
 
My first thoughts would be saddle fit and girth placement (is it coming forwards or going backwards). I have a filly who needs her girth to be tightened gradually and have a little walk in a circle before being mounted. She will have a hump if the girthing is too hasty.

Next thought would be mouth, wolf teeth, caps and sharp edges.

If it is not a physical issue you will need some professional help because a youngster who has learnt how to dump riders will keep on doing it sadly. There is a golden rule that the old horsemen will tell you, never ever fall off a breaker. and that is why breakers tend to have young, fit and very talented stickable on anything riders working for them.
 
If you have all the physicals checked, what about sending him to a pro for a month to see if they can make headway?
Not as expensive as lifetime field ornament & worth a try if you love him
 
Whilst I am no expert, I have turned round a few ponies that displayed similar traits - New Forests are clever ponies and if they are not occupied and given very clear guidelines they may well revert to 'amusing' themselves - at your expense!
I would suggest that your boy is not 'broken in' at all and that you go right back to basics. I would work him on the ground with a long lead rein, get total and full control of where he is putting his feet - Get a copy of The Fearless Horse by Roger & Joanna day, this will be your bible! Get him moving backwards, forwards, sideways, away from you, toward you, exactly when you tell him and how you tell him. This can all be done at walk to start with. Put up with absolutely no nonsense, no moving his feet in the stable, put him back where you started. YOU are to be in charge of the decision making. Do not let him think at all, he needs to do what you say and keep doing it till you say otherwise! Whether this is standing still, inside or out, holding a hoof up, walking on a small circle, going in a line, loading. ANYTHING. Praise him when he does it but make it completely clear what you want and expect 100% of the time. Get control of his shoulder, work him closely to start so that you can control what he does. learn to watch his ears as well as everything else! If he charges around with his head up and ears on anything but you, TELL him to pay attention to you. Use big body language and soften when he drops his head and puts his ear on you, praise him quickly and ONCE. I usually let them have a day between sessions so it sinks in. Sessions might last two hours (or more!) but do not go any further until you have got his attention for that day and he is saying 'What do you want me to do now?'
I wouldn't ride him until this is totally and absolutely how he thinks. It is always better to battle from the ground in cases like this. If he is a pain, get after him, growling and making yourself big. when he is good, tell him how clever he is. Its easier in a school but can be done in a field, he's only three foot away on the end of a rope! Initially, its not about what he would like to do but about what you tell him. No need for beating, gadgets, other people but you do need a 'mind shift' to say 'this horse is going to be a pleasure, rather than a worry' New Forests are IMHO, the very very best ponies ever and I adore mine. Good luck.
 
Ah I missed that it was a forester. I have to say that behaviour is even less characteristic and a full work up would be on the cards.
 
If the saddle, teeth etc are fine and it is just down to behaviour, I do think he will get better with age. I had a Welsh section D who turned into a monster when he was 6 and 7. He had been quite easy to break and very submissive as a youngster, but at 6 he started to feel his strength when his body was filling out and muscling up. He tossed me off by bucking more than once and shattered my confidence especially hacking by being an idiot when other horses went past. I sent him to a pro because I was getting nervous and he was getting worse and luckily I found an professional eventer who offered to help me out. I hacked out on his really nicely behaved horse while he rode my delinquent :) and it really helped us. I carried on having weekly lessons with him while the pro worked with him on the other days.

He did come right eventually, I think he was just a very boisterous teenager (at 6!). He also taught kids to ride years later and although always had the potential to be cheeky, I got to the point where he was manageable.

I think you need to give yourself the best chance by perhaps lunging him first and working him quite hard on the days you sense he might throw a wobbly eg. when its windy, when hes had lots of spring grass etc. I would lunge mine for 30 mins on some days including popping him over some fences then ride him for an hour. Some of them have a huge amount of energy at that age.

Also do lots of challenging schooling work which will engage his brain and increase his respect towards you. If you are nervous of coming off again then make sure you use a neck strap and I found the sticky seat savers helped my confidence and kept me more securely in the saddle. You could also consider trying a calming supplement although I have to say I tried a few of these without much success, I found regular hard work was more effective.

Don't get down-hearted though, its often tough bringing on youngsters and they will reach a time when they try to test us. I'm sure you'll get there with him and it will be worth it when he settles down. I've always loved the NF's, definitely worth persevering with, don't give up :)
 
Thank you for the replies everyone. Lots of very helpful advice.

Getting him sent away to a pro would be great, but just isn't feasible. I've spoken to a few in the area, but the prices they've quoted are just way out of what I can afford. Ditto with getting help at the yard. It's there, but it all costs money. Even a lesson a week stretches me to the limit. I really wish it didn't come down to money, but sadly sometimes it does :(

His saddle was professionally fitted, but it is due an adjustment, so I've made an appointment with my saddler.

I will confess his groundwork isn't great (understatement) I'm more confident in the saddle, and so it may have been overlooked due to my lack of knowledge. He is getting slowly better, but he is endlessly pushy. Even Jason Webb nearly threw in the towel when I took him to his in hand clinic! He did advise some techniques, but they required quite a lot of strength that I just don't have at eight stone! He's a really strong stocky pony too, so that doesn't help. I have ordered a copy of The Fearless Horse, so looking forward to that arriving.

I've been lunging him before riding. I'm not the best lunger however, so that's a work in progress. Schooling exercises are pretty simple up until now. My instructor says we need to establish the basics first. Would people agree with that or not?

He really doesn't respect me, so I do need to go back to basics. I don't intend to really throw in the towel. I'm too bloody minded for that. I just feel like I've made loads of mistakes and done him no justice. Having said that...my friend is BHS qualified and she sold him to me for £1 because she couldn't deal with him. We have so much fun when he's going well and he is a beautiful looking boy. I just want to do him justice!
 
What area are you in? Someone may well be able to recommend a professional who could help you and that sounds like it would be a good idea. I've been there and it is tough, but with the right help you should be able to get through it.
 
I'm a bit confused to how he was started, was he with you at 3 and started properly? Properly mouthed, long reined ect then riden away walk trot canter walk trot canter. The key with breakers I find is little and often even if it's only 10 mins a day I try to do something with mine 5 to 6 times a week. If this was done at 3 then yes they could then winter off and come back at 4 to keep going. But leaving a baby horse between breaking and over 5 when you moved him to you last year with just once a month work is not broken in my eyes. Assuming there isn't anything medical and his routine/feeding is suitable for what he's doing, I'd go right back to basics and get the long reins on him with a mouthing bit and get him in front of the leg with a soft mouth, at least he can't dump you from the ground if he throws tantrums on the reins. Then get back on when that's more established long reining first then ridding after.
 
I'm with ester and faracat. I've broken lots of youngsters including natives.

This 'great one day, evil another' is simply not normal and I agree with them that there is probably something wrong with this pony that no-one has yet found.

I'd try an exclusion diet, including taking him off grass altogether. I'd try making sure he had a full belly before riding (to test acid splash from ulcers). I'd get his spine x rayed from ears to loins. I'd get someone kind but experienced to ride him to see if it was me (NOT to bully him into behaving). And if all that failed I'd retire him or have him put to sleep.
 
ossy said:
leaving a baby horse between breaking and over 5 when you moved him to you last year with just once a month work is not broken in my eyes.
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I have to agree with this - riding a youngster once a month isn't enough to set any education in stone and you are effectively needing to start afresh now.

Something Ossy also said was also what I was thinking too - how exactly was he backed? I know you said you had help from your instructor, but not all instructors a versed in properly starting a youngster.

As far as pain goes - you said you have had the vet out but has he been scoped or had a guastroguard trial? Or had xrays done?

Another thing to consider is the rapid shape change with youngsters - the saddle that fit him when you were riding once a month may not fit him now he has muscled up with work, and also will have widened through the shoulder with maturity. With my youngsters I always get the saddle checked mid winter and mid summer when the shape is likely to have changed the most. If he is still in the same saddle you backed him in, there is a very good chance that it doesn't still fit him.

Lastly - don't lose heart. Youngsters can be hard, hard work. I had one who was a gem and I got really complacent with her. My sec D however is a bit of a nightmare! One step forwards and ignore the steps back :)
 
I used to have a NF and they are smart ponies, I mean all ponies are clever but I found that mine read me more than any animal I have ever owned or ridden.
The riding once a month things was not a good idea, I find you can leave them for months but when you start work has to be consistent and varied in what you do so their brain is stimulated.
To be honest I would say stop, you are too old to get broken, its not worked out, much as you love him there are plenty of others with no problems. I speak from experience I had a challenging mare, I was about the same age as you with two young children, common sense won. He may forget all the tricks but its a risk I wouldn't take.
 
ester said:
Ah I missed that it was a forester. I have to say that behaviour is even less characteristic and a full work up would be on the cards.
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Now interestingly I would argue that. The foresters I have had to break have all been extremely challenging but have all turned into fantastic ponies once you find the key to them during breaking.

I would reckon this pony needs a pro for a few months.
 
It doesnt sound normal - and I agree with the others who have said he is not 'broken' as such based on how infrequent it all was at the start. Here's how I'd approach it:

Step 1 - get a full work up
* Get the physio out first, then based on their advice probably regular sessions to make sure there is no tightness/stiffness from this increased workload
* Then get the saddle checked - youngsters change shape so often you need to be really hot on saddle fitting, a badly fitting saddle can cause behaviour like you have described so you need to keep monitoring the fit and get your saddle fitter out frequently as he muscles up and changes shape
* Then vet out - maybe even talk about scoping for ulcers as random/unpredictable behaviour is linked to ulcers (I used to ride a completely unpredictable horse who turned out to have severe ulcers, you could be going along wonderfully then all of a sudden he would drop a shoulder and I'd be on the floor with no warning - that was because just the smallest movement/turn could mean one of the ulcers were splashed and that caused the pain, hence he'd have me off). X-rays would be a good idea as well, just for peace of mind.
* Get the dentist out - check teeth, make sure wolf teeth have been removed properly (you'd be amazed the amount of times I've seen horses who've had them half removed by a rubbish dentist) and teeth rasped regularly
* Get the farrier out - trot up in front of farrier, see if they can spot anything

I know that is expensive and time consuming, but until I had done ALL of this I wouldnt be working him at all, you need to rule this out first before you work him, if there is anything wrong he'll be associating you and work with pain and that is forming a negative association; it needs ruling out 100% before you think about work.

Step 2 (providing all causes of pain ruled out and all relevant experts happy for you to work him)
*Go right back to the beginning - as in start the breaking process from scratch
* If you have lost your confidence and are uncertain about any of the process, send him away to a pro to be re-started

Step 3 (providing all has gone well in the re-starting process)
* regular, consistent work - youngsters need routine, and they need regular varied work to reinforce what they have learnt. Work out a plan that fits your schedule so you can look at working him 3-4 times per week, for short sessions.

I agree you cant sell in these circumstances, the pony sounds dangerous and it isnt fair or safe to sell an unpredictable horse on to another person. But you cant keep trying to plod on alone with this; hence why I'd get the physical stuff checked and out of the way first, before sending off to be re-started by a professional. It sounds like he needs to go back to the start, get into a routine with the pro and then you can pick up and carry on.
 
honetpot said:
I used to have a NF and they are smart ponies, I mean all ponies are clever but I found that mine read me more than any animal I have ever owned or ridden.
The riding once a month things was not a good idea, I find you can leave them for months but when you start work has to be consistent and varied in what you do so their brain is stimulated.
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I would agree with that. They are smart, but overall usually pretty genuine and it is the pattern of behaviour as much as the behaviour itself that concerns me.
Hopefully the OP might come back and answer some of the queries as it is hard to have a discussion about it without their input!
 
Hi everyone,

I will try and answer everyone's questions...

He was backed at 3 (and a half) but he wast mouthed, lunged, long reined before that. My friend who helped me has started youngsters before him with no problems. I totally agree that that not getting ridden for long periods of time was far from ideal, but I had little option at the time as he was at the other end of the country! My friend who helped me back him (who also sold him to me, and bought him from the New Forest as a 6 month old foal) wouldn't ride him for me as she's a nervous rider.

He's been down here with my now since he just turned 5. I feel I should stress that everything has been taken really slowly since then. Lunging, quiet hacking, very gradual lessons/schooling. I've honestly tried my best to make up for his less than fantastic start in life.

My instructor schools him when I can afford it. She's trained to Grand Prix Dressage level, so she knows her stuff! He still tests her though, so at least I know it's not just my awful riding!

He's ALWAYS been insanely pushy and bolshy, even from being a tiny youngster. He will try his luck over, and over and over again. It's pretty exhausting.

His saddle isn't the one he was broken in. I've had it seven months and it was fitted by a master saddler, and refitted since then. Saddler is actually due to come out next week for another refit.

I've booked vet to come out again at start of next week to have another look at him. I will mention concerns regarding the ulcers then. I've also booked dentist, as both he and my other youngster are due anyway.

I've asked around the yard for physio recommendations and gotten a few numbers. I don't think farrier will be an issue as he's barefoot anyway and always has been. I get his feet done regularly and they are in rock crunching shape! :)

People keep telling me he's just a naughty (and sometimes choicer language) pony, but I do feel I need to check all physical issues for peace of mind. I actually hope he is just a naughty pony to be honest. I'd be devastated if there is anything wrong. He drives me mad, but he is the cheekiest, cutest pony ever and I adore him.

Apologies if I've missed anybodies questions. I really do appreciate all the input. Thank you.
 
I don't think that the gappy training is to blame. Both of mine have had seriously gappy training due to my health issues and their health issues. Despite this they are completely predictable IF they are sound, healthy and pain free. When my gelding had photosensitivity, the constant pain and discomfort sent him loopy and made him erratic. Obviously that was an easy issue for me to identify, with a 'hidden' condition it's so much harder.

It sounds like he's better hacking than schooling? If this is correct, I do wonder if that's because he finds the schooling harder or more painful.
 
I'm inclined to agree with those who have mentioned that a full set of checks might not be a bad idea, although I am curious about his bolshy behaviour on the ground. It is hard to tell just from reading what we see on a forum whether or not this is a pony who might be in pain, or whether it is one who is very single-minded and more or less just does what he wants. Although, even then, his behaviour doesn't strike me as normal. To go from fine one day to such absolute extremes the next is bizarre. The only youngster I have seen this in before was a 4 yr old who came to us apparently already backed, but his behaviour suggested that this might not have been successful! Although occasionally he would be fine, when he wanted to he would go into an extreme melt down, rearing vertically again and again and again for as long as he wanted. I had experience of him doing this while long-reining and lunging and it was actually very frightening! At the time, I was convinced he was in some sort of pain, but my boss managed to turn him round fairly successfully in a few weeks. He was actually there for the boss's GF to ride/ school but she couldn't cope with him, experienced though she is, so the boss did the initial work. No unpleasantness was involved - just a lot of time spent long-reining the pony round and round the farm until he learnt that he might as well go where he was told in a nice way or they'd keep going all day. I personally would have gone for health checks first, but it may not be pain and may well just need firm, consistent handling from someone who is very experienced. The pony in question, one year on, is doing very well and is being ridden and competed successfully by the boss's GF.
 
Faracat: He's better hacking than schooling now. At first he was still bucking, spooking and so on. I've hacked him out loads though; just quietly around the farm mainly, and he has improved loads. He's still nappy though (always at the same spots) He's never once been allowed to get away with napping, but he still continues to try. His hacking has improved the more schooling we do if that makes sense?

He can still work really nicely in the school some days. When there's no distractions like people walking around, horses in the other school and so on then he seems to go much better. He seems to use any distraction as an excuse to play up if that makes sense? Then on a bad day it just goes to the extreme of darting off, bucking, spooking and now rearing. :(

My instructor thinks he's just a really naughty pony. I personally don't know what to think! So getting more checks done definitely seems a good place to start.

HashRouge: His bolshiness on the ground has been there ever since my friend got him as a 6 month old. The reason she sold him to me is because she admitted she didn't have the heart and energy to deal with it. He always wants to be in your space. You can move his shoulder away and he will just come back again, and again and AGAIN! He's just constantly nosing, nibbling and just wanting to see what's going on basically. He's really strong and stubborn in responding as well. As I mentioned before, I took him to a Jason Webb in hand clinic and even his techniques weren't working very well. I could see Jason getting more and more exasperated with him.

Last week he slipped his bridle while I was taking his tack off him, bolted off the yard and back to the field. It took four of us to catch him. That's just an example of his behaviour.

I should add as well that he gets ridden on average 4+ times a week. He doesn't stand for days doing nothing by any means!
 
Glad to hear the pony you knew turned out well in the end HashRouge.

It is so frustrating because he is such a lovely example of his breed, moves beautifully and has so much potential. Argh!
 
DalesDiva said:
Oh, and I'm in the Swanley area of Kent if anyone has any trainer recommendations. Thanks.
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Jason Webb is in Kent and I would highly recommend him. He writes a regular blog for H&H and is very much in demand.

And ignore your instructor, this isn't a naughty pony.
 
Tash88 said:
Jason Webb is in Kent and I would highly recommend him. He writes a regular blog for H&H and is very much in demand.

And ignore your instructor, this isn't a naughty pony.
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I've met Jason Webb. I did one of his in hand clinics last summer.

He's good I agree. Unfortunately he's also out of my price range :(
 
Tash88 said:
Jason Webb is in Kent and I would highly recommend him. He writes a regular blog for H&H and is very much in demand.

And ignore your instructor, this isn't a naughty pony.
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If you read the OP's posts, she has already consulted Jason Webb and he apparently found the pony quite a handful. I also don't think that we can or should be telling the OP that this is "isn't a naughty pony". The truth is that none of us can tell what exactly is going on, certainly just from reading about the pony. All we can do is suggest (sensible) avenues that the OP might pursue. I do think that the first port of call should probably be to go back to the vet and discuss the checks that could and should be done to ensure that this is definitely not pain related (i.e. back, teeth, ulcers etc). If the behaviour is definitely not pain related, that makes things more complicated. Then I'm inclined to think that the pony is best spending some time with a (recommended) professional, though that is obviously difficult if finances won't stretch to it. I do think it's important that we don't diagnose the pony over the internet though - it might just be a (very) naughty pony, we're just not in a good enough position to assess.
 
DalesDiva said:
I've met Jason Webb. I did one of his in hand clinics last summer.

He's good I agree. Unfortunately he's also out of my price range :(
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He is expensive, I agree. But it may only take a couple of sessions; that's all I've had so far and I've learnt a huge amount. The online tutorials are good as well.

I'm sorry I didn't read all your posts thoroughly but I will stand by my opinion that your instructor may not have the best approach to dealing with your pony. I'm happy to be corrected and I am no natural horsemanship devotee, but there are many ignorant people in the horse world who just put behaviour down to naughtiness without looking at the bigger picture. Very few, if any, horses are 'naughty'.
 
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