So: if no PTS, what should we do with useless valueless horses?

[Kallibear]

Following on from the PTS thread.

There are obviously plenty of people who disagree with PTS for 'convenience' as they see it. That's fine.


In the current market there are a HUGE number of horses who are valueless. Pretty much any horse who can't be ridden for normal activities (or behavioural or physical reasons) has pretty much no monetary value or use. Some are may be useful for a very competent experienced rider but that type of rider usually wants a talented horse (and it's talent*automatically*gives the horse value).A small (very small) number will be suitable as a companion. They may have a small value as a breeding animal but surely everyone agrees that overbreeding is what got us in this horse population crisis in the first place.

It's a sad fact of life that things with little value or use are often cared for less. 'Value' can come from being a much loved pet, but that value only applies to its current owner.

So, if they're not PTS and the owner no longer wants or is able to keep them: what should we do with them?

It's a genuine question for those so anti PTS for problem useless horses. Where should they go? Should someone be expected to take them on? How many altruistic owners do you beleive are out there?

 

[LaMooch]

So, if they're not PTS and the owner no longer wants or is able to keep them: what should we do with them?

Let them run free on the moor as we have no wolves in this country LOL

TBH I want to see the answer to this problem because at the end of day there is enough unwanted and neglected horses in this country why do people want to add to this problem

 

[Kallibear]

Let them run free on the moor as we have no wolves in this country LOL

Be careful what you joke about! Someone recently said, in all seriousness, that they'd rather turn their elderly horse free in the forest rather than have it 'unnecessarily' PTS!!

 

[LD&S]

I'm not the right person to answer this really as my three much loved horses will be pts when I can no longer care for them, they have little or no value in the big wide world but even if they did I would't sell. The charities are full and cannot even now take in the hundreds of horses that need a home, companions are ten a penny.
I will not risk them being shoved from pillar to post and potentially end up being neglected.

 

[pippixox]

forgive me if i'm wrong, but pretty sure with dogs that end up in pounds and some charities, if no one wants them (so no value- as spoken about in other post), or if they have health issues or aggression, they are PTS. some are kept in kennels, for more than a year, waiting for a home they will never get. if both my horses have to retire i will keep them, rather than PTS or sell on to get a riding horse. as many horses can be unsound for ridden work but still not in pain.
sadly the answer really is PTS in many cases. if we had less horses they would all have greater value. i know of a few people who are 'altruistic' and have homed unwanted horses, but do not really have adequate time or money to care for them and ignore bad lameness simply because the horse doesn't need to be ridden- that is not quality of life for a horse.

 

[LaMooch]

Be careful what you joke about! Someone recently said, in all seriousness, that they'd rather turn their elderly horse free in the forest rather than have it 'unnecessarily' PTS!!

That's why I made the joke comment as I saw that post too

 

[Copperpot]

I will just keep mine as lawn mowers. I couldn't pts them when they were no longer useful.

As for dogs a charity did rescue one of mine from a pound and keep him for almost a year in kennels. Thank god they did. He's my dog of a lifetime. He's forgotten his rubbish start to life now and is a very happy boy

 

[Echo Bravo]

Some of these do gooders tbh never really think things through, it's just their ideals they think about, like those people who let farmed mink loose and stood by while the mink destroyed the local wild life before the mink went further afield look what they have done to the water voles. They are the people I despise.

 

[Kallibear]

I will just keep mine as lawn mowers. I couldn't pts them when they were no longer useful.

That's great and loads of people do. They have value and use to you as a pet. But say you lost your job and couldn't afford them: then what?

 

[Magnetic Sparrow]

I know of at least one case where an elderly thoroughbred mare was turned loose in the New Forest after the owner decided they didn't want it any more :frown3:. People truly think it's an option.

I'm looking forward to seeing what ideas there are for dealing with other people's horses. Apparently I'm trigger-happy, but I'm open to other ideas.

 

[Kadastorm]

alot of people told me to pts my (then 6yr old NF) last year. i went against it even though i could have claimed and gotten myself a comp horse like i planned when i sold him. its taken alot of time, money, sweat and tears but he is coming good. even if he didnt, im glad i have kept him as he is my best friend and i couldnt imagine not seeing him everyday.

 

[zigzag]

The people who disagree with PTS can pay for them in their own stables if they feel so strongly about it

 

[catwithclaws]

I currently keep my old mare on retirement livery. I don't begrudge her any of the money I spend on keeping her healthy and happy in her retirement. However not everybody is in the position to be able to do this, and as others have said, an older unsound horse has no monetary value, and Unfortunately circumstances sometimes occur that are out of anyone's control.

Where do you draw the line though? I have always said that I will not bute my mare up to live in the field. If she cannot just be a horse without being in pain then she will be PTS without question. I would always make a decision that I felt was in her best interests, rather than what was easier for me. JMO though

 

[hnmisty]

If I was stinking rich I'd take loads of the poor (but happy and healthy, not cripples that are in constant pain and can't display typical behaviour) and let them live happily in my fields where they would be pampered every day because I'd be so stinking rich I didn't need to work.

Sadly I cannot think of a viable alternative.

Even though I was able to ride Misty for the last 3 years I had her (6 of the 12 I had her, grew out of her after 3 years then later started taking her out for gentle plods which she LOVED) I was riding her, she was essentially retired for most of the time I had her. However, I kept her at home, free hay and straw, dad's a vet so free jabs. She was probably cheaper to keep than our 3 labs. We always knew she'd be with us until the end, which happened very suddenly.

However, keeping at home is very much different from paying for livery and having to travel there every day. I could only afford one at livery. I could have faced 20 years of having to pay for livery for a horse I couldn't ride. That's a lot to ask.

Friends always asked me why I didn't have Misty at livery with me when I was at uni. Firstly, neither I nor my parents could have afforded to pay for livery. Secondly, the life she had at was better than that offered at any livery yard I have yet to see. Thirdly, she was settled at home. I couldn't have turned her life upside down by moving her to a yard even if she'd had the consistency of me being there, let alone going to somewhere new with someone new.

Had there been any reason we could no longer keep her, I would have felt my heart fracture into tiny pieces, and then I would have had her PTS. She didn't deserve the uncertainty of having to settle somewhere new in her 30s.

 

[blitznbobs]

Eat them... It seems the obvious answer . I eat cows, sheep, pigs, chickens, ducks, rabbits, geese etc etc. I wouldn't eat my own but would have no objection to this in principle ...

 

[Polos Mum]

For those that meet the criteria (age and height) the blood bank is one possible answer - for a select few.

Somehow stop people breeding so there are fewer ending up in this situation

Educate people to realise the value of older horses as happy hackers and that while they may have asparations to be competing/ hunting etc. in reality a lovely older been there and bought the t-shirt type is truely what they need. Somehow to make the 15 y/o chestnut mare as fashionable as the 3 y/o coloured cob - don't know how we do this.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Eat them... It seems the obvious answer . I eat cows, sheep, pigs, chickens, ducks, rabbits, geese etc etc. I wouldn't eat my own but would have no objection to this in principle ...

You can always get someone to pick your old nag up and travel it across Europe to be eaten, is that your idea of a solution?

 

[Goldenstar]

For those that meet the criteria (age and height) the blood bank is one possible answer - for a select few.

Somehow stop people breeding so there are fewer ending up in this situation

Educate people to realise the value of older horses as happy hackers and that while they may have asparations to be competing/ hunting etc. in reality a lovely older been there and bought the t-shirt type is truely what they need. Somehow to make the 15 y/o chestnut mare as fashionable as the 3 y/o coloured cob - don't know how we do this.

I rather have the 15 yo chesnut mare myself .

 

[blitznbobs]

I'm talking about the young masses who are in sales up and down the country. My ideal solution is not to breed them in the first place but why the transport - we could eat them here...

Btw I've never got rid of a horse that is old and past it's best. I keep them all until their quality of life is poor and it's the right time to pts. However simply saying that this is how it should be doesn't make it so... And what about the poorly bred horses with poor conformation that flood the bottom end of the market what is your solution for them?

 

[Copperpot]

That's great and loads of people do. They have value and use to you as a pet. But say you lost your job and couldn't afford them: then what?

Luckily for me my job is very secure. In that case I would move them to the cheapest grass livery I could find and take whatever job I could to keep them. I would fight to keep them. Or I would let my OH pay for their keep until I was in a position to afford them again. There's things I could sell to pay for their keep for at least a year. I'd just do whatever I could to keep them.

 

[JillA]

As you know from my comments on the other thread, I have often had to suggest PTS as the only humane option for some "companion" or even rideable horses and ponies.
One proviso though - it was suggested I have my (home bred) horse shot due to behavioural issues. I didn't and have found most of the answer eventually - he and I have both been on a long journey on which I have learned so very much, if I had given up on him I wouldn't be the horsewoman I am today. So it can pay to see problems as challenges unless age/discomfort/pain dictate that the prognosis really isn't good. And I have my own land so didn't have to shell out week after week on livery for him (and no, that's not altogether luck, it is hard work and determination!!)

 

[LaMooch]

I agree eating horses could be an option but then we cant worm, vaccinate or give them bute if they going to enter the human food chain so this could cause other issues especially no bute, meaning horses will suffer more.

 

[be positive]

For those that meet the criteria (age and height) the blood bank is one possible answer - for a select few.

Somehow stop people breeding so there are fewer ending up in this situation

Educate people to realise the value of older horses as happy hackers and that while they may have asparations to be competing/ hunting etc. in reality a lovely older been there and bought the t-shirt type is truely what they need. Somehow to make the 15 y/o chestnut mare as fashionable as the 3 y/o coloured cob - don't know how we do this.

For every pts thread there is another saying don't buy the 15 year old happy hacker that will not pass the vet unless it is almost free just in case it breaks in a few years time, this is sad as the 15 year old probably will happily go on for another 5-10 years, give endless pleasure and confidence yet it is considered valueless as there will be no resale at the end. I think unless you are a professional you should not expect to get either your money back or a profit when buying a horse, it should be looked at in a similar way to a car, not suggesting they should be treated like one, they may go down in value from day one, there is no guarantee you will get your money back if you sell, let alone make a profit.

Some way of restricting breeding would be a good step, culling poor quality stock is probably a necessary step which is unlikely but that comes back to pts which is not going to please some.

 

[Kallibear]

alot of people told me to pts my (then 6yr old NF) last year. i went against it even though i could have claimed and gotten myself a comp horse like i planned when i sold him. its taken alot of time, money, sweat and tears but he is coming good. even if he didnt, im glad i have kept him as he is my best friend and i couldnt imagine not seeing him everyday.

Well done and it's always nice to hear of people willing to put the time and tears in. But what would you have done with him if you were unable to fix his problems? Sold him on to someone and hope they could sort him?

I currently keep my old mare on retirement livery. I don't begrudge her any of the money I spend on keeping her healthy and happy in her retirement. However not everybody is in the position to be able to do this, and as others have said, an older unsound horse has no monetary value, and Unfortunately circumstances sometimes occur that are out of anyone's control.

Where do you draw the line though? I have always said that I will not bute my mare up to live in the field. If she cannot just be a horse without being in pain then she will be PTS without question. I would always make a decision that I felt was in her best interests, rather than what was easier for me. JMO though

That's something many people wish they could offer their own horse. As you say though, many cannot afford it or aren't willingly to afford it. I suppose it depends how important being able to ride the horse is to you. It's where the line falls between working animal and pet.

I don't think anyone (with any sense) would question putting a suffering horse down. There's always the serious Pro-life idiots who believe in life at ANY cost but thankfully they're few and far between. There's always the grey area of how MUCH the horse is suffering but it's not a huge bone of contention. The arguments come when the horse is not currently suffering but is useless and valueless. And what lengths people will go to ensure it never does suffer.

Eat them... It seems the obvious answer . I eat cows, sheep, pigs, chickens, ducks, rabbits, geese etc etc. I wouldn't eat my own but would have no objection to this in principle ...

I entirely agree on horse meat eating but that still requires them to be PTS

For those that meet the criteria (age and height) the blood bank is one possible answer - for a select few.

Somehow stop people breeding so there are fewer ending up in this situation

Educate people to realise the value of older horses as happy hackers and that while they may have asparations to be competing/ hunting etc. in reality a lovely older been there and bought the t-shirt type is truely what they need. Somehow to make the 15 y/o chestnut mare as fashionable as the 3 y/o coloured cob - don't know how we do this.

Bloodbank is a tiny outlet but worth considering. Over breeding is the main cause of this over population in the first place but it's a very difficult thing to control (and a whole new discussion).
And sadly, yes an older schoolmaster happy hacker is ideal but they're actually really hard to find and not that cheap! They do have to be sound in mind and body for it. Many of the horses I'd suggest PTS are neither. Due to the affore mentioned over breeding, it's a damn sight cheaper and easier to find a 3yr old coloured cob

 

[hnmisty]

Luckily for me my job is very secure. In that case I would move them to the cheapest grass livery I could find and take whatever job I could to keep them. I would fight to keep them. Or I would let my OH pay for their keep until I was in a position to afford them again. There's things I could sell to pay for their keep for at least a year. I'd just do whatever I could to keep them.

It's great that you have that job security and a supportive OH.

What if you didn't though? What if you were single? Or of you and your partner both lost you jobs and you were at risk of losing your home? What if you had kids to feed and couldn't afford the old knackered horse and food on the table at the same time?

A few years ago it was touch and go whether my dad would lose his job. If he had, we'd have lost our house and everything. I would have searched heaven and hell for a way to keep Misty. And if o hadn't found an answer, I would have PTS. Thankfully the worst didn't happen and we kept her until she got colic. I'd always said the day she had to go through an operation would be the day i said goodbye, and so it was.

 

[AdorableAlice]

Dump it in the first field with an open gate seems popular around us.

I have dealt with two, one was an 18 month old colt and very nicely put together type the other was a yearling coloured yak.

 

[Chestnut horse]

What if....... who knows.......

 

[Orangehorse]

I don't think anyone would PTS a horse that can have a useful life, there are loads of people who want a nice horse to hack, not to jump or go fast but a nice, safe and sound animal.

The difficulty is with horses that do not meet that criteria either they are ill, lame or difficult in some way, tricky, sensitive, or one person, been badly treated in the past, etc., etc. the reasons are numerous.
The original person who started the other thread is missing the point. I don't think anyone quickly comes to the point of PTS, but the fact that more and more people seem to be asking the question is just proof that owners are facing up to the realities of life and are finding out what can happen to horses that are passed on to an uncertain future simply because the owner is too squeamish.

Three or four years ago there were the same sorts of threads of "I cannot ride/afford/cope with my horse but I love it, will someone take it off my hands and give it a lovely home." Well yes, there are always people around who will give it a lovely home for a week or so, until it can be sold as a 14 year old ex show jumper to some unsuspecting buyer, or given a good home for 24 hours before it is shipped off to the abbatoir.

I think this is beginning to dawn on owners, yet they naturally still don't want to say "The only thing I can do with this horse is kill it." So they want support, to be told that this is the right thing to do and in general they get it here. Sometimes it needs a dispassionate other person to give a considered view.
PTS is not the worst thing that can happen to a horse, kindly in familiar surroundings; it doesn't much matter if it 26 or only 6.

 

[Kallibear]

I agree eating horses could be an option but then we cant worm, vaccinate or give them bute if they going to enter the human food chain so this could cause other issues especially no bute, meaning horses will suffer more.

That is because DEFRA are currently a waste of space when it comes to horses, not because they can't actually have the wormers etc. Coes/sheep/pigs are all regularly wormed, vaccinated and given pain killers. It could be sorted.

 

[olivia x]

I honestly never encountered the situation of putting a horse to sleep if it was no longer rideable but not in any pain, still in decent health with a good quality of life until I started to read these forums. Most horses I knew from back home in the middle of the vast prairie simply were able to live out their natural days, and if they needed to retire, they did. But there open land is more plentiful and so I think the cost of keeping and maintaining a horse is much less than here. So it is something that might be more economically feasible than it is here in the UK. My first childhood horse died of old age, well into her 30s. My parents made me sell her when I went to uni-- but it took 2 years before we found a home I would accept for her. Her new owner had a cattle ranch, but said he just liked to watch her out his window-- she was an Arabian and beautiful if I may say so! -- and rode her for fun, not to work cattle. She had a 3 sided shed on her field, where she could go in if she wanted for shelter, and she was on about 10 acres with a few other horses for company. This owner sent her on to a little girl and her family, who also had land of their own where they could keep her, and she spent her final days being loved by a little girl again and died of natural causes.

A friend of mine had to put her horse to sleep last year, when his health failed. He had been unrideable for several years before that, but she kept him and her new horse. I think if it had been a choice of having a new riding horse and putting him down, she would never have put him down. She was fortunate enough to be able to keep two.

I don't know the answer. It is something everyone will determine as an individual. Is a horse without value when it is no longer rideable? Again, a highly individual response likely from people.

Consider the expense of health care for dogs-- just an ordinary pet dog with no particular "value" other than being a pet, not a working dog, not a breeding stock dog. Where do you draw the line on what you will spend? Again, individual responses will vary. When I was a post-grad student, I brought home a stray puppy on one winter evening who became very ill with parvo virus. I already had a rescue dog of my own. The vet said the puppy would be likely to pull through it,but the treatment would be expensive. The vet was aware that this was a stray pup, and I was a student without much money. I went in to see the pup, with the idea he would have to be put down, as I could not afford his treatment. He was on an IV but playing in his cage, bouncing around and bright. Well, there was no way on God's green earth I could have him put down, so I worked out a payment plan with the vet-- who halved the cost of treatment-- and scrimped and pinched every penny I had. The puppy lived-- I had no intention of keeping him myself actually but I found a wonderful home for him with a fellow student and his family.

Much later on, another treasured dog came down with cancer. It was treatable, but expensive. His health was otherwise good. I paid. Of course I paid. He went to a special dog oncologist. I struggled to pay, but I paid. He went on to have a few more healthy years of life before being PTS due to advancing arthritis-- nothing related to the cancer he had had.

So what would I do with a non-rideable but otherwise healthy horse? Most likely, keep it, love it and look after it and if it meant foregoing having another rideable horse-- then so be it. But that is only me-- and other people will make their own choices for their own reasons.

I make the choices that seem right for me. They may or may not be what someone else would do.