So: if no PTS, what should we do with useless valueless horses?

[Pearlsasinger]

Some way of restricting breeding would be a good step, culling poor quality stock is probably a necessary step which is unlikely but that comes back to pts which is not going to please some.

Going back to having every stallion licensed would help, although if DEFRA policed that scheme as well as they police passports ................

I agree that far more people should buy older horses, we might not see so many 'lost my confidence' threads on here. I bought a sound, healthy 17 yr old and am fully expecting to keep her into her 30s. At one time we had 4 mares here, all well over 20, although they were all bought as much younger horses.

I once had an unrideable mare, bought as a 4 yr old, who developed behavioural problems, which eventually proved to be caused by her feed. We were going to have her pts aged 12, when fortunately we discovered what was causing her problems but we effectively kept her as a companion until she was 24. Not every-one is in a position to do this and I would far rather they pts than try to palm their horse off onto a charity or send it round the markets, waiting for the meat-man to pick it up. I have nothing against horses going for meat but from a welfare pov, I'd rather they went straight to the slaughterhouse than via several markets.
And something else we should bring back is the small local slaughterhouse.

 

[Kallibear]

Why don't you save yourself the bother of all the inquisitions and just write down what you would like people to do?

There is obviously some precisely worded response that you think people should come up with, otherwise they are being very stupid, and you will not be satisfied until you have led them to it by a series of questions which you have them answering like a mother with a child on the naughty step.

Don't have a strop just because you can't or won't answer the question: what would you do if you couldn't retire your useless horse? You've decided you would retire, at all costs? That's quite admirable. It's a shame more don't.
Spring feather: when I was in the USA I went to see a huge herd of oldies living on hundreds of acres.. They were just so peaceful and happy. It'd be nice to have that kind of land over here.

 

[honetpot]

I think people are being totally unrealistic about horses purchase, people chose sexual partners and spouses and most put a lot of thought into it but can end up being disappointed and ending the relationship. So your unhappy in your marriage you can leave but if you have bought a horse you have to keep it until it dies or you are destitute! Some will say you should have thought about that when you bought it, but the fact is most people don't, riding for most is a sport at the start not a life time commitment.
I have a friend who always sells her animals before they are ten, because she doesn't want the responsibility of an older animal. I can not see what is so bad about having an animal PTS where as selling it to someone is a far more risky as many people over estimate their ability and knowledge.
I think riding will eventually become the elitist sport it was when I was a child in the 70's, then you had to have very well off parents or a family with land to own a pony. Where I went to school the only girl who had her own pony, her father had won the pools. No one wants to pay the real cost of livery and with insurance issues, there will just not be the cheap DIY livery which seems everyone wants.

 

[olivia x]

For some people, horses DO count as companion animals. For others, the utility of the horse begins and ends with its rideability. If you count it as a companion animal you are likely to make a different choice-- as it will not be seen as "useless" when it cannot be ridden. Some people like horses because they like to ride-- some like to ride because they like horses. Depending on your view on it all, you will "value" the horse in a different way. For some people, a horse has "value" whether rideable or not-- perhaps not market value, but a deeper kind of value that has no price.

 

[be positive]

I'm beginning to feel persecuted. If you would like to check back (which you probably will, since its the sort of thing people do on here), you will get to the bit where in a previous thread where I say that I have either made the decision to sell horses before they reached the age of 11 or 12, or keep them beyond that and retire them.

I was just interested as you are very clear on your views, no interest in checking back, there does come a point beyond which I think they are owed a retirement and it is not fair to sell them but everyone will have a different opinion on when that stage is reached, if they ever really think about it and I think that the lack of forethought is the issue and that will not change when it is so easy to go out and buy a horse, on a whim sometimes.

 

[LaMooch]

I agree that far more people should buy older horses, we might not see so many 'lost my confidence' threads on here. I bought a sound, healthy 17 yr old and am fully expecting to keep her into her 30s. At one time we had 4 mares here, all well over 20, although they were all bought as much younger horses.

I don't think age should be issue to a certain extend when buying a horse especially if you want a schoolmaster/happy hacker. My old share was 14 yrs old ex racer who is now 20 and still ride just don't share now and he taught me so much on bonding and understanding a horse more then what a learnt riding 4/5 year old horses at work. Problem today is people want something that lasts so go for something younger with less mileage and we know that isn't always the case as it is with horses

 

[Copperpot]

That is what some of is are saying, we would keep them at all costs. One of mine has been mostly retired since he was 9 due to djd of the hocks. I could do little bits with him but tend not to bother. He lives out and keeps himself mobile. If he lives that way for another 15 years so be it. He's my horse and I love him. He was good enough for me when he was hunting and dragging me over hedges I didn't want to jump and he's good enough for me now. Every so often I take him out for a little hack and duly reminds me why I don't like riding him when he's not been in full work

I'm not saying everyone should feel the same but my opinion is I would do whatever it necessary to keep my animals. They aren't just part of my life they pretty much are my life.

 

[Mithras]

Don't have a strop just because you can't or won't answer the question: what would you do if you couldn't retire your useless horse? You've decided you would retire, at all costs? That's quite admirable. It's a shame more don't.
Spring feather: when I was in the USA I went to see a huge herd of oldies living on hundreds of acres.. They were just so peaceful and happy. It'd be nice to have that kind of land over here.

I haven't said that and I have answered your question, in detail, several times.

How many times do you want the same question answered?

I don't mean to be rude, but when you go out socially with horsy people, or even people who have friends or like animals, what sort of conversations do you actually have with them?

 

[MrsElle]

I currently have four horses, three are not ridden. Of the two on loan from WHW, one is a wobbler and can't be ridden, the other is only three this year, but may never be able to be ridden due to 'issues'. My own two, one is a TB who since leaving the stud at the age of three has had 8 homes in the four years since. She hasn't been schooled, but is an ok hack. She also doesn't load after being beaten into a lorry at some point. The other is an elderly Shettie who is extremely difficult to catch as she has also been ill treated and is very timid and frightened.

As you can tell from the above, riding or not riding isn't an issue with me, and I hope that all four stay with me until the day they die. The only time I would consider pts was if I financially couldn't afford my two (the WHW two would go back obviously) and I couldn't find them a suitable loan home. I would absolutely not put my TB through another move, she is a smashing girl for me, but there are plenty more cheap TB's out there who have much more potential than she.

 

[weebarney]

My current lot are
28 yo pony - retired
24 yo pony -almost totally retired
17 yo ex racer- retired as he's a liability
6 yo pony- recovering from malnutrition by previous owner so only walking in hand at the moment.

In 18 years of horse ownership only sold 2 horses who were unsuitable for me and had 2 pts due to major injuries sustained while turned out.

This thread is getting a bit silly with the 'what if this or that happens?'

 

[millikins]

I haven't read the whole of this thread.
But my view is that if a horse has given you his best years and can no longer perform to the level you desire you owe it to him to do the best you can for him in his twilight years.
We have a 13.2 NF pony that took my daughter from being a mediocre, slightly nervous, non jumping rider to being a confident capable rider, capable of jumping 1m plus tracks in a matter of months.
He is now retired and slightly arthritic in front. Useless, yes, but perfectly happy in pampered retirement. It would be more convenient for us to PTS and use his stable for a horse in work. But I would no more get rid of him than I would my own mother. We owe him big style and will treasure him until the day he dies.

I haven't finished reading all the threads yet so sorry if you've posted more. I assume that you have the space/funds to have another mount for your daughter or has a promising young rider had to give up until the retired pony dies of old age?

 

[Tinypony]

I'm not going to judge anyone for their choices, life is hard sometimes and the unforseen happens.
Speaking for myself, when the horse I'd planned to be riding for many years to come became "useless and valueless" at six years old I kept her in retirement. First with me and then with a friend of mine, and she's still there now. When I purchased her as my once-in-a-lifetime dream riding horse I felt I could afford to keep her, so when she couldn't be ridden I could still afford to keep her.
Luckily for me I ended up owning others, but I wouldn't have purchased my riding horse to replace her if it had meant that I couldn't afford to pay for my Crystal Fire to live out her days happily. At some point she's going to get uncomfortable and lose quality of life, then I'll make the tough decision. If I couldn't afford to keep her myself, and therefore couldn't be sure of her future, I'd make the tough decision. At one point it looked as if I'd have to reduce numbers due to finances, and the one I was thinking of selling was the one who had a useful ridden future (sob!). I know that's not a strictly logical choice, but I can't be strictly logical about living creatures that I love. I wouldn't have put Fire to sleep in order to keep Celebrity to ride.

 

[Mithras]

I haven't finished reading all the threads yet so sorry if you've posted more. I assume that you have the space/funds to have another mount for your daughter or has a promising young rider had to give up until the retired pony dies of old age?

Perhaps the promising young rider will learn better values from dealing with a pony which has been retired after doing well than being taught the attitude that living creatures are disposable things once they are no longer convenient to you, to be replaced and thrown away like a pair of shoes?

Perhaps the promising young rider has been asked to ride someone else's pony or horse, or got a share or a loan?

 

[Copperpot]

Perhaps the promising young rider will learn better values from dealing with a pony which has been retired after doing well than being taught the attitude that living creatures are disposable things once they are no longer convenient to you, to be replaced and thrown away like a pair of shoes?

Perhaps the promising young rider has been asked to ride someone else's pony or horse, or got a share or a loan?

Well said!

 

[Spring Feather]

I haven't finished reading all the threads yet so sorry if you've posted more. I assume that you have the space/funds to have another mount for your daughter or has a promising young rider had to give up until the retired pony dies of old age?

Like minesadouble, we also have kept my daughters childhood super-duper pony that she has long since grown out of. Heck we even flew the pony half way round the world to remain as part of our family. Fab little pony who has been retired for many years and is quite happy pottling around our fields. Daughter has 4 horses of her own so she keeps her hand in at remaining a pretty decent rider, and yes I suspect we'll have these 5 till they pop their clogs too lol!

 

[Goldenstar]

I had my first pony till he died he was very healthy until he was found dead by my neighbour .
He missed moving to the GS hacienda by about three weeks we had a lovely skinny paddock and shed all sorted for him he never got away from DIY hell I have always been sad about that he would loved it here .
He was an acquired taste he had an evil streak.

 

[Gloi]

My current pony is 25 and fortunately still pretty fit and happily hacking about. I do wonder what I'll do when I can no longer ride him. I've had him most of his life and there is no way I'll have him pts unless he is ill, but I don't really have the money to keep two. I'll probably end up riding one of my friend's or take on something to train during the summer months that will cover its costs.

 

[Goldenstar]

My current pony is 25 and fortunately still pretty fit and happily hacking about. I do wonder what I'll do when I can no longer ride him. I've had him most of his life and there is no way I'll have him pts unless he is ill but I don't really have the money to keep two. I'll probably end up riding one of my friend's or take on something to train during the summer months.

Staying riding mine was not really an option I got him when I was six or seven and was 29 when he died I had somewhat outgrown him .

 

[jeeve]

PTS is the most humane option and takes more balls, and shows more consideration to the horse than passing the problem on to someone else, or abandoning the animal to its fate. But some times a horse may not have a value to its owner, but have a value or use for someone else. This should be considered before the PTS option.

 

[weebarney]

PTS is the most humane option and takes more balls, and shows more consideration to the horse than passing the problem on to someone else, or abandoning the animal to its fate. But some times a horse may not have a value to its owner, but have a value or use for someone else. This should be considered before the PTS option.

Excellent point

 

[baymareb]

So, if they're not PTS and the owner no longer wants or is able to keep them: what should we do with them?

It's a genuine question for those so anti PTS for problem useless horses. Where should they go? Should someone be expected to take them on? How many altruistic owners do you beleive are out there?

I think people have a lot of trouble imagining putting to sleep a healthy animal. Unfortunately, in my opinion the alternatives are worse. For myself, when I acquire any animal, be it horse, dog or cat, or any other, I consider it my responsibility for its lifetime. Therefore, I don't overextend myself with animals and I plan ahead for their old age. I keep and care for them until they no longer have a positive quality of life and then I let them go with the help of my vet and euthanasia drugs.

However, the reality is that there are literally millions of unwanted animals out there and it does them no favors to simply keep them alive without any real quality of life - if that is even possible. Who is to pay for it? Who is to provide that care? It's great that rescues or retirement homes exist but they cannot take care of them all and I would not like to play the odds that the animal I care about but can't keep will end up in a good situation.

My opinion is that the responsible things to do as an owner are:

1. Don't get animals when you can't afford to keep them.
2. Don't breed your animals unless you are prepared to keep all the offspring for the duration of their lives in the event they are not marketable.
3. If you get in a situation where you cannot keep them, do your best to find a suitable, safe and secure home for them.
4. If they have health, behavioral, or other issues that make it impossible to do the above, put them to sleep so they do not end up suffering in a bad situation.

I don't think anyone is "pro-PTS" - but I do think it is a responsible position to take in certain circumstances.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

We should be eating them...... whoever said that is quite right.

Not worming???? mmmm well we wormed a batch of fattening cattle not long ago (Ivomec based wormer) and OH just checked the withdrawal period last week...... how long do you think it is? Bearing in mind that horses are wormed with the same drug. And most drugs used do have a withdrawal period.....but just not for horses. I wonder why? could it be to do with the spondulies to be made out of keeping them trudgeing along, so to speak!!?

Oh and why is it so very expensive to worm a horse compared to a cow??

One reason it is expensive for horses is that you are buying one not 100, also there is a lot more ongoing research and stuff for horses, and marketing cost will be greater.
Owners can elect to have horse enter the food chain, but there are no facilities round here, and even of there were, no way would I send a horse to a slaughterhouse without being sure things were done properly. Which means I would have to go and inspect the process myself, not nice.
I don't know if anyone has answered the question, as they say "eat" or "keep" but this is not practical.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

Don't know how many times I have said this but as someone with a useful but elderly horse as long as he is enjoying life and reasonably happy and I can afford him I will keep him. If I were to lose my job and couldn't find an affordable solution then he would be PTS. I owe him a peaceful dignified end to our 13 (hopefully more) years together than being shipped on to another home or in known future.

He is on loan at the minute to a fabulous friend as I have had surgery and he is teaching her daughter loads which is I believe his calling in life as he's taught me loads in all our years. He has no monetary value other than being priceless in my eyes and heart but that wouldn't stope doing the right thing by him jot matter how many people slated me.

There are just too many people in this country not willing to take responsibility for their animals and make the hard choice so between that at backyard breeders who breed for the sake of it the horse market is in the state that it's in.

I would have no problem eating horse were it slaughtered in this country in licenced abbatiors and properly managed. I also cannot see the validity of those who argue keeping yourself in poverty or struggling for the sake of which is essentially a hobby.

 

[Jericho]

I would find it very to justify retiring a horse and paying for years of livery if it compromised my family. If I had limited budget would I rather feed my children or a horse? Mercenary but realistic. I do find PTS horses that are valueless and completely unrideable very distasteful but there usually is no other viable options if you can not afford them and cannot find someone with a big heart AND deep pockets who can have herds of old horses roaming their estates. the horse industry is built up around horses being a hobby, which is riding. sadly the horse is the one to suffer when we discard them so quickly when they are no longer useful. It makes me so cross to see all these indiscriminately little coloured cobs on the market being sold for pennies, must be gone by the weekend etc. people that just breed to make a few quid. It's these people that deserve the wrath of HHo rather than those who make a responsible decision if they can't find a solution for horses that are unrideable. Ideally we would all let our useless horses live out their days in our own lush pastures but that is not the real world.

Also The argument that we keep dogs for life sadly isn't true either, people do give them up and dogs are far less expensive than horses and do become part of the family as they generally live in a house. Would you keep a small pet at another location and pay for someone else to look after it for many years? I imagine that is a far less common scenario that retired horses at livery. Sorry, rant over and I am another one who didn't really answer the original question...

 

[w1bbler]

If PTS is done sympathetically what's wrong with it. The horse has no idea what's happening, that you are now getting rid as its "useless"
I've seen lots of retired horses over the years looking uncomfortable, stood in field, largely ignored, but owner things they are giving a well deserved retirement.
Don't get me wrong, I've got a 25 year old field ornament, that will be staying until he looks unhappy, he still tries to run & buck with the youngsters in his field & I like having him around. I won't criticise people who don't keep the old & lame though, too many human emotions are put into the decision, the horse has no concept of retirement.

 

[babymare]

How i see it is there is no right or wrong opioion .It all comes down to circumstance and the individual.. I applude all who say they will keep till the end in old age. I also said that but life can change dramatically as mine did.My mare due to sight issues was retired early and in those last years wanted for nothing but then life throw changes at me (some good some i wouldnt wish on worse enemy). I struggled on for sometime before having to make the hardest decision have ever made. Emotinally, financiall, mentally physically i couldnt go on. Given her sight, her stress issues and background I would not or could not pass her on. She was 14. So whilst it may seem an easy option to take to PTS trust me it isnt. So Iwill never critercise anyone for thier beliefs but i still hold opioin that for some horses far worse can happen than being PTS..

 

[poiuytrewq]

Oh how I desperately wish there was a really good answer to this question!
I'm in the position my horse had to retire age 12 last year. He has a companion pony so here I have two "useless" horses but I love them and they are happy enough.
My own horse is tittering on the edge of retirement/ continue as a light hack possibly on bute he's 14
Then my daughters pony is possibly going blind which will leave me with 4 retired horses ages 6-14 who in theory I could be providing for for the next 15-20 years and never be able to ride again this thought kills me but so does the thought of putting them down. The other thing is I have to stable them so they cost a fortune and therefore I have to work 7 days a week. It's a depressing thing to think about!

 

[Sussexbythesea]

Oh how I desperately wish there was a really good answer to this question!
I'm in the position my horse had to retire age 12 last year. He has a companion pony so here I have two "useless" horses but I love them and they are happy enough.
My own horse is tittering on the edge of retirement/ continue as a light hack possibly on bute he's 14
Then my daughters pony is possibly going blind which will leave me with 4 retired horses ages 6-14 who in theory I could be providing for for the next 15-20 years and never be able to ride again this thought kills me but so does the thought of putting them down. The other thing is I have to stable them so they cost a fortune and therefore I have to work 7 days a week. It's a depressing thing to think about!

I think people and in this case you and your daughter deserve a good life too and if keeping 4 horses and not being able to enjoy your one and only life that is an incredible waste too.

I was in a similar position albeit with only one young unrideable horse that I had only had 6 months before problems arose. After 2 years and much heartache and soul searching I chose me. Since then I've had a fab 9 years with my current horse who is 19 now and will be with me until the end even if that means I can't have another horse as he has given me so much. If I hadn't had the first one pts I could still be sat here 10 years on having done nothing but watch other people ride.

 

[Tinypony]

I've had a look back to the start of this thread. Op referred to "useless and valueless" horses. A lot of us have been talking about things like horses being in pain, quality of life etc... but the starting point was about whether they were useful or had a value, and just because a horse is neither of those things, it doesn't follow that the horse is suffering in any way. The two aren't always linked.

Others are talking about animals that are being unwanted getting passed from hand to hand and into an uncertain future. That's a horrible prospect, but of course we're not talking about that situation here are we? Most, if not all of us, are referring to our personal circumstances and what we would do. So I'm sure nobody here is going to admit that they'd send a useless or valueless horse off into the unknown when we couldn't use it any more.

Then we have the "unable to afford/justify/sacrifice other areas of our lives..." to keep said horse. I'm assuming that when we buy that horse as a fit and possibly valuable animal most of us foresee being able to afford to keep it. So what changes when the horse suffers a mishap, or just gets old? Does the bank account suddenly shrivel and vanish? Of course sometimes finances have changed, but more often the owner needs to get rid of the horse because they are never going to be able to ride it again, they might want to replace it with a useful model and can't afford to keep both.

As I said before, I'm not judging anyone. I think we should all accept that this is a matter of our own personal choice. In most cases an owner who has been paying for and caring for a healthy horse could continue to do that for a retired one. It might mean they can't afford to keep another to ride, but that's a different argument. And in all cases the owner has the choice about whether or not to send that retired horse off down the "food chain". So this isn't really about all those horses who would be better off being put to sleep is it? It seems to boil down to me as a simple question - if one of our horses was no longer useful or valuable, would we keep it in retirement or have it put to sleep?

Really hard one to face I think.

 

[Four Seasons]

In Holland, all useless, homeless, valueless horses go to the horse slaughter, to serve as dogfood or burgers etc. I don't see what the problem is with that. We don't have a huge overhorsing problem over here, because of the slaughter. Sometimes even more humane than putting a horse to sleep! One shot through the head and its done and over with, no nonsense that the horse falls over while slowly slipping away into a deep sleep and hurting itself, while still alive and fully aware. Some horses tend to fight against it, making it even worse for owners.

The horse slaughter over here isn't cruel or terrifying. I have visited a horse slaughter and watched them "slaughter" a few horses. All horses were taken in very calmly, the "slaughterer" pats them and gives them the last bit of love. Then he put his "gun" on the head, horse doesn't even know it's coming and within 1 second its all done and over with. Horse has a purpose, it's meat, bones, hair and therefore has a value. They pay money for horses to be slaughtered. Not much, but 300-400 euro's a horse isn't bad.

If more people would see it this way, the slaughtering horses wouldn't be such a "bad and terrible" thing. Then a market could exist in horse slaughtering in England and the overhorsing would be surely history.