So: if no PTS, what should we do with useless valueless horses?

Wagtail said:
I did know they were kept in barns for six months of the year. That would suit my boy better than his current stable for 7 hours of the day and turnout in the sand the rest of the time as he would be able to move about all the time.

Regarding the broken legs and necks, there are hundreds of horses and so I would expect many injuries. In the past ten years I have had two out of four horses I have owned break their legs in the field. I have been on a livery yard with 30 horses where two horses broke their necks in the same year.

At my yard my mare (one of seven) horses broke her shoulder in the field.

It does sound horrendous the way you put it, but with the law of averages, just because of the numbers we are talking about, I would expect a high number of casualties. I think you need to see it in perspective.

Regarding not wanting to make the final decision - I have no problem with that. I had to make it for my horse of a lifetime very recently. Believe me, that was much harder than it would be for any other horse.

I know my gelding and I know the type of life at the BB would suit him. As I have said, it would not suit every horse.

So is life at the BB really worse than death?
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It is something that I know little about other than reading on here, the horses are there to serve a necessary purpose, do a job, they are obviously looked after but must by the very nature of the purpose they are there for and the numbers involved, get little attention, be more like a dairy herd, better than death? yes but if dead they have no thoughts, needs and can suffer no further, it is a difficult one but if you are happy with your decision and think the horse will settle well let him go and try and move on.
 
Wagtail said:
So is life at the BB really worse than death?
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As you've said very much depends on the individual horse, personally I think mine would struggle in such a large herd environment and would miss out on friendly daily human contact for a scratch.
I don't know physically how they bleed them but horses at Uni that were bled for research blood got pretty fed up of having it done pretty quickly and really started playing up.
I can't see the point of delaying the inevitable for mine personally.
 
Wagtail you know your horse & you are absolutely right that it does suit some horses down to the ground.

I've only known of one local horse go there (very tellingly my friend didn't send her horse & she'd have seen him 5 days a week!) He was a very hardy, tough gelding & a complete thug. He loves it there & is having a fab time :-)

You have to do what's right for you & your horse. Although i would never send one of mine there, i am obviously very pleased that a lot of people do choose to as they do fantastic work. Good luck with your horse.
 
Wagtail said:
So is life at the BB really worse than death?
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I don't think so, unless a horse isn't really comfortable or is completely unable to socialise with other horses. I sent a mare who was an eight year old very volatile ride and unsaleable after being diagnosed with severe soft tissue injuries in her front feet. She looked perfectly sound to tear about the field, the blood bank guarantee not to sell the horses on and I was and am happy that if, for whatever reason it didn't work out, she'd be destroyed, which is what I was going to do anyway. I'm not sure what the world's coming to when we start saying living in herds without TLC, etc is no life for horses, its as close to how they would live naturally as it can get!

Wagtail, don't take this the wrong way, but you seem quite sentimental about your horses, would you be OK with the blood bank just taking the decision to have your old horse destroyed for whatever reason because I can't imagine they'll think about it as hard or as long as you do, although I may of course be wrong about that?
 
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I am the type of person who easily feels guilt. Believe me, I have thought this over and investigated the whole thing for over a year. Obviously, my preferred thing would have been to keep him here myself, and I was elated when I thought I had cracked it. I have never had a horse that could not cope with even minimal stabling before.

I am 100% comfortable that I have made the right decision for him. Knowing him like I do, I could not imagine a horse it would suit more than him, and I would be consumed with guilt if I had him PTS knowing that he could have had a chance at the blood bank.
 
Oh, give them to charities or good companion homes 4 lyf, of course :rolleyes:

I'll admit I did keep a retired horse for four years, which meant no riding etc, but there was definitely a deadline there, and I'm not entirely sure I would do it again - he did get bored, despite my best efforts at hand walking etc. Perhaps it would be different if he'd been elderly, but he wasn't. We have one retiree at the moment, and we're thinking this summer will be his last, because although he's not lame as such (only when ridden, it's arthritis) he doesn't look comfortable when it's cold, despite a large daily dose of bute. To be honest, horses are the only exercise I get, and riding is the one thing I truly love. If I'm going to pay horrific livery bills I'd like to be able to ride!
 
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Flame_ said:
I'm not sure what the world's coming to when we start saying living in herds without TLC, etc is no life for horses, its as close to how they would live naturally as it can get!
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My horse has never lived like this and selective breding has taken away lots of features of a natural shapped/ sized horse - so it would be a massive change for him and I'm not sure he personally would get on with such a change.
A youngster, native type, who's not conditioned to a different lifestyle - I totally agree a natural lifestyle would be great.
 
Flame_ said:
Wagtail, don't take this the wrong way, but you seem quite sentimental about your horses, would you be OK with the blood bank just taking the decision to have your old horse destroyed for whatever reason because I can't imagine they'll think about it as hard or as long as you do, although I may of course be wrong about that?
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Yes, because I don't have a choice. It is either PTS here or at least have a chance of a long life at the BB. It may be that he seizes up in any case as his disease progresses. In which case I would also have him PTS. At the moment he is on two bute a day. It keeps him comfortable enough that he is not really suffering enough to be PTS immediately. In the Spring, before he goes, I plan to take him off the bute and turn him back out 24/7, just to double check that he will go back to his lively self without bute. If he doesn't then the BB will be cancelled. He will be buted up again for the summer and then PTS at home before the winter.
 
Flame_ said:
I'm not sure what the world's coming to when we start saying living in herds without TLC, etc is no life for horses, its as close to how they would live naturally as it can get!
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Oh no it's not that for me. My own horses live out 24/7 in managed herds and many are not pandered to, however I don't keep herds of 60 or 70 horses all in together in winter barns with tiny turnouts for months every year. I don't like my herds being larger than 6 horses lol!
 
There is no such thing as a useless, valueless horse. Being able to work is a bonus for us. They owe us nothing. If all a horse can do is be a horse, it is still utterly perfect.

That said, if they are unable to live properly and happily as horses due to illness or injury, are dangerous to themselves and/or others, or if we cannot care for them properly and cannot rehome them to someone who can and will care for them properly, then we owe them a good death.

The same holds true for any living creature. There is no magic wand that gives us an alternative: duty of care ultimately means duty of death. It is part and parcel of responsible ownership. And I say that as someone who has been present at numerous births, deaths and interim attempts to preserve life.

Death is inevitable. It is not something that should be feared. It is something that must be well met and managed correctly by those involved.
 
I think you have the perfect set up SF. I always admire your philosophy on horses. I am very tempted to move to Canada!

Over here I have been on two very large livery yards that had just two herds. A mares herd and a geldings herd. The largest one was over 50 strong.
 
Wagtail said:
Yes, because I don't have a choice. It is either PTS here or at least have a chance of a long life at the BB. It may be that he seizes up in any case as his disease progresses. In which case I would also have him PTS. At the moment he is on two bute a day. It keeps him comfortable enough that he is not really suffering enough to be PTS immediately. In the Spring, before he goes, I plan to take him off the bute and turn him back out 24/7, just to double check that he will go back to his lively self without bute. If he doesn't then the BB will be cancelled. He will be buted up again for the summer and then PTS at home before the winter.
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I consider this to be perfectly reasonable and wish him all the best.
 
Arizahn said:
There is no such thing as a useless, valueless horse. Being able to work is a bonus for us. They owe us nothing. If all a horse can do is be a horse, it is still utterly perfect.

That said, if they are unable to live properly and happily as horses due to illness or injury, are dangerous to themselves and/or others, or if we cannot care for them properly and cannot rehome them to someone who can and will care for them properly, then we owe them a good death.
The same holds true for any living creature. There is no magic wand that gives us an alternative: duty of care ultimately means duty of death. It is part and parcel of responsible ownership. And I say that as someone who has been present at numerous births, deaths and interim attempts to preserve life.

Death is inevitable. It is not something that should be feared. It is something that must be well met and managed correctly by those involved.
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^^^ Great post Arizahn, sums up my thinking on the matter perfectly
 
Wagtail said:
I think you have the perfect set up SF. I always admire your philosophy on horses. I am very tempted to move to Canada!
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It's funny because when I lived in Hants/Berks the way I keep horses now was not the way I kept them there. And I honestly couldn't have ever imagined that I would keep horses the way I do here, but having done it both ways, I know there's no way I could ever go back to my 'British way'.

Over here I have been on two very large livery yards that had just two herds. A mares herd and a geldings herd. The largest one was over 50 strong.
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Ooh no I couldn't lol. Even when I had my yard in England I was still really cautious about having loads of horses together so that's one thing I've not changed. Most of my herds in England only had 4 or 5 horses in them too, and always on larger acreages than is often the case at many UK yards.
 
Arizahn said:
I consider this to be perfectly reasonable and wish him all the best.
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I agree with Arizahn, you've thought it through & understand the risks & are making the best decision for you & him. At the end of the day that's what matter's, not what anyone on a forum thinks. Say goodbye to him in April if you are happy that he is still up to it & then move on. Good luck x
 
Wagtail said:
Actually, it's not passing the buck. I will be sending my gelding there this year. He WAS down to go last year but I pulled out having rethought my management plan of his condition. Basically he has to be out 24/7 or he completely seizes up and is in a huge amount of pain even with bute. I had taken him on LWVTB 4 years ago (aged 8 at the time) but immediately found lameness in both hocks and severe kissing spine. When I spoke to his owners they said if they took him back they would have him shot. So I spent thousands having him operated on, both his hocks and his back, but although the operations brought him field sound, he was still unrideable. But I decided to retire him as he was a very happy chap and a lovely horse. Then just over a year ago, he stopped being the happy, playful boy I knew and in the winter took a turn for the worst. It was being stabled that was the cause of it and that is why he was put down on the waiting list for the blood bank.

But when it came to the time he had to go, he was then out 24/7 here and was back to his old self (without bute), so I took him off their list and decided I would try my best to give him 24/7 turn out all year round and retire him here. Unfortunately, the recent wet weather meant I had to close the fields and even though he is going out in the sand for 17 hours a day, even the 7 that he is stabled have seized him up again. The BB have them out 24/7 in the summer and in big free range barns with their established herds in the winter. So I have the choice of PTS at home or send him to the BB. I have chosen the BB. I know he would absolutely relish the life there because I know him well. He is great with vets and needles and excellent to handle.

Also, horses have a useful life at the blood bank. How do you think horses would get blood for transfusions if no horses gave it? How about the serum used for medical research etc? It's hardly passing the buck if it is the best choice for a horse. I would always choose to retire a horse at home ideally, but sometimes, even when someone is willing to do that and has the resources, it is not always possible if the facilities don't suit the horse's condition.
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Brilliant post. As the previous one about truth and fact.
My previous horse was retired to the blood bank 8 years ago due to Navicular and the onset of side bone. He was 10 years old when he was retired.
I'd like to think that his blood donations have helped in saving other horses lives !
 
zigzag said:
You think it is fair for a horse to be shut 6 months of the year in a barn?

I personally wouldn't want that for one of mine but we're now getting back to the whole 'how different are cattle to horses' argument.

I don't know anything about cattle but around here they do seem to spend the winter months living together quite happily in barns. Why shouldn't horses?
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zigzag said:
You think it is fair for a horse to be shut 6 months of the year in a barn?


Sometimes you have to be brave to PTS a horse
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I know my boy and he would be fine with that. It's much better than confined 23 hours a day in a 12 x 12 stable like many horses are. He will have shelter, equine company and room to move around, so in his case, I don't have a problem with it. Obviously, it's not as good as 24/7 turnout in a huge field, but not many people are lucky enough to be able to offer that to horses in this country, especially on clay soil.

And regarding being brave. I have no problems with that, thank you. :)
 
Carefreegirl said:
Brilliant post. As the previous one about truth and fact.
My previous horse was retired to the blood bank 8 years ago due to Navicular and the onset of side bone. He was 10 years old when he was retired.
I'd like to think that his blood donations have helped in saving other horses lives !
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Thank you. There is a lot of scaremongering that goes on around the blood banks. I don't know why. I mean would all those people saying how bad they are refuse a blood transfusion if their best horse needed it? After all, it would be supporting these evil places where horses are better off dead!
 
Wagtail said:
Load of rubbish.

They don't take in horses over the age of 15. But most horses there are actually in their late twenties.
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Oh that's not what I read, if you loan the horse to them they give it back to you when he/she reaches 15, so you are going to sell your boy to them then?
 
Wagtail said:
Thank you. There is a lot of scaremongering that goes on around the blood banks. I don't know why. I mean would all those people saying how bad they are refuse a blood transfusion if their best horse needed it? After all, it would be supporting these evil places where horses are better off dead!
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Absolutely right Wagtail, i'm sorry if it seemed like am totally against the BB, I'm not, they do amazing work.
 
Wagtail said:
I mean would all those people saying how bad they are refuse a blood transfusion if their best horse needed it?
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I've owned horses for over 40 years and I've dealt with many accidents and injuries (some horrific!) and I've never ever had a horse have a blood transfusion. I wonder how many people from here have actually had their horses be given blood transfusions?
 
zigzag said:
Oh that's not what I read, if you loan the horse to them they give it back to you when he/she reaches 15, so you are going to sell your boy to them then?
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You don't loan them to the blood bank, you sign them over and they then become property of the BB. No money exchanges hands.
 
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