So: if no PTS, what should we do with useless valueless horses?

Wagtail said:
I know the threads you mean. A year ago I decided to find out for myself, first hand. They are wrong. They don't TAKE any horses in after 15 years old but they are kept for as long as they have a good quality of life.

It doesn't matter if you believe that or choose to believe the untrue rumours. The important thing is that I know the truth and I am the one sending my horse there. Also Carefree girl has jut said that she saw her horse grazing there when he was 18 years old. That was when he had been there for 8 years. Obviously somehow managed to avoid all the rampant leg breaking and neck breaking that goes on there. :wink3:
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I wish you luck
 
Wagtail said:
Yes, because I don't have a choice. It is either PTS here or at least have a chance of a long life at the BB. It may be that he seizes up in any case as his disease progresses. In which case I would also have him PTS. At the moment he is on two bute a day. It keeps him comfortable enough that he is not really suffering enough to be PTS immediately. In the Spring, before he goes, I plan to take him off the bute and turn him back out 24/7, just to double check that he will go back to his lively self without bute. If he doesn't then the BB will be cancelled. He will be buted up again for the summer and then PTS at home before the winter.
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I think this sounds eminently sensible.

I would just say though, don't get your hopes up. Arthritis is a tricky one to manage, as it isn't consistent and often requires an ad hoc approach to pain relief. My old arthritic horse had a box of Bute on prescription and on his stiffer days he got some and on his better days we cut it back. Weather and ground conditions affected how stiff he was.

Your lad isn't going to have the option of an ad hoc approach to pain relief at the BB, as they will want him clean as a whistle.

Would a retirement home be a better option for him? You'd have to pay, but at least you'd know that if he did have a stiff or sore day they would give him a Bute.
 
Goldenstar said:
Wagtail , you must do what you feel is best for your horse as I said .
I however based on my experiance of caring for my older horses will never send any of mine to the BB.
This not based on Internet rumours or googling stuff it's based on the fact the horses do not get pain relief if they need it as they age they are not being checked as carefully as indvidually handled horse would at home .
My horses are mine that to me means they never leave my care until they are PTS ( I say PTS bacause in fifty years of horse ownership I only once found a horse dead ).
I live with chronic pain myself I am very careful not to inflict it on my horses .
Just because someone would not take the same desision as you does not they have made that desision based on faulty imformation .
They have just come to a different conculsion to you that's all.
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I was referring to Zigzag who keeps spouting incorrect information about the blood bank.

As I say, I completely understand your view and I have never let a horse go from my care in 40 years (other than a couple of loan horses that went back to their owners, and one who went to my sister. But I have never had one like my current boy who I can not keep comfortable even on bute with the facilities I have. But the fact that he comes right so quickly once he is out 24/7 means that he should thrive at the blood bank. However, before sending him in the summer, he will be put out here 24/7 again to ensure he returns to his old self without bute.

I have spoken at length to the blood bank and whilst they do not use bute, they do not leave horses in pain. They are PTS on the premises. When my lad is in pain, you cannot miss it. It is obvious. So I do not worry that he will be left suffering in pain for a prolonged time.

Having said all this however, I would not be sending him if I could manage his condition here. It has been a very difficult decision to make.
 
Perhaps a stupid question but, Wagtail, have you thought about sending him to another yard on full care grass livery, then he'd still be yours but could stay out? It sounds like you're happy with your plan anyway though. :)
 
EstherYoung said:
I think this sounds eminently sensible.

I would just say though, don't get your hopes up. Arthritis is a tricky one to manage, as it isn't consistent and often requires an ad hoc approach to pain relief. My old arthritic horse had a box of Bute on prescription and on his stiffer days he got some and on his better days we cut it back. Weather and ground conditions affected how stiff he was.

Your lad isn't going to have the option of an ad hoc approach to pain relief at the BB, as they will want him clean as a whistle.

Would a retirement home be a better option for him? You'd have to pay, but at least you'd know that if he did have a stiff or sore day they would give him a Bute.
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I am completely happy with my decision to send him to the BB. I would trust them more than a retirement livery but that is just me. Since running my own yard and hearing so many horror stories about liveries, I would never leave a horse on full livery again. Even though I run a full livery yard and so I know there are some good yards, I just feel more comfortable with the blood bank. But also, I want him to be useful. He is so good with vets.
 
Copperpot said:
I'm sorry the fact I've got a secure job offends you so much! I can hardly help that. I trained hard for a long time for it. My circumstances are what they are. And I appreciate my job and that the money I earn enables me to keep my horses. If my OH lost his job it would not impact on my horses. No need to be so bitter about my life!
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It doesn't offend me at all. What did offend me was your naive assumption that life was that simple. My friend had trained for yars as well. She didn't plan to split from her husband or become disabled but, faced with that situation, she dealt with it as best she could. And that meant the horse had to go.
 
I have planned for these situations actually I am not naive. I have a disability scheme which pays out a substantial sum should the need arise. Also my salary is enough to keep me, my horses and my home should I split with my OH. So my life isn't dependant on someone else keeping me. I'm not lucky old me as you stated. I plan for things and try to cover all bases as much as I can. I hardly call that naive.
 
And I haven't judged anyone who has chosen to have their horse pts. Just expressing my opinion on what I would do. Your friend did what she could in her situation.
 
Copperpot said:
I have planned for these situations actually I am not naive. I have a disability scheme which pays out a substantial sum should the need arise. Also my salary is enough to keep me, my horses and my home should I split with my OH. So my life isn't dependant on someone else keeping me. I'm not lucky old me as you stated. I plan for things and try to cover all bases as much as I can. I hardly call that naive.
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I don't know of any disability scheme which would pay enough to keep you and a horse on full livery for 10+ years, which is how long the horse could have lived.
I was trying to make the point that you cannot say that you will never sell/PTS for financial reasons until the situation hits you. There were no heroic sacrifices she could make to keep the horse.
 
Hah, had a funny read the other night with this issue. I wasn't involved, but someone kept saying "I have a solution and i'm currently writing it out with lawyers to make sure noone steals it it will be protected by me, i can save every horse, you are all just murderers"

Was rather amusing.

Sorry, a little off topic. I have nothing to add to this thread other than that lol
 
I think (this is just my perspective)there are lots of 'useless valueless' horses about. Obviously overbreeding is a huge problem, but there is also a problem people who see PTS as a bad thing. It is obviously not a good thing, but since all our pets will die, we at least can make a choice about when & how. There is such a furore 'these days' about having a horse PTS, that people do anything to avoid it, it just swells the numbers of 'useless, valueless' horses.

I don't like to see my pets suffer and so always PTS at the start of their downward slide rather than when life has become intolerable. The only regrets I have about animals I have PTS has been when I put them through unnecessary treatments and made them suffer, I have no regrets for animals who were PTS while still feeling OK and relatively well, just a bit of sadness because I miss them.

I might sell a horse which is fantastic & healthy and a good performer. But would never pass on one who was in poor health or aged, or who had behavioural issues. I do have sharers & loaners, which allows other people to love & benefit from my lovely horses, but allows me to control their wellbeing.
 
Copperpot said:
I'm sorry the fact I've got a secure job offends you so much! I can hardly help that. I trained hard for a long time for it!
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I'm impressed that you are confident that you have a secure job, they are rarer than hen's teeth these days. I know of many people who have also trained long and hard for what they hoped would be a job for life, only to find that the reality of the modern career structure is very different.
 
baran said:
I don't know of any disability scheme which would pay enough to keep you and a horse on full livery for 10+ years
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We have a scheme at work, in the case of permanent incapacity my salary is paid at the current level (with yearly inflation rises) until retirement. Most people just go 'yeah' when I tell them about it, not realising that it is such a good benefit. Not everybody has a job like this though (believe me I get a lot of grief) and we never know what is round the corner do we...
 
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I have the same kind of incapacity scheme at work - 85% of my current salary or an agreed final pay off figure and I leave but keep my pension. Plus a private one thru work also which I pay monthly into.

My job has a shortage and my company need us to do overtime to fulfil what they require. There has been no redundancies since the 1980's in my sector. My company are actively recruiting all the time so yes I feel confident that as long as I don't mess up big time my job is as secure as it could be.

I believe 600 + people applied for 10 positions last time they recruited. 10 is the largest group they will train at once. Out of those 10 perhaps 6 will pass and become employed. Out of those 6 some will not make it through 2 year probation etc etc.

No job is 100% secure I realise this but I don't think it's a bad thing to feel that your job is secure and to plan your life accordingly.
 
Well I don't really have anything to add to this debate - all points of view seem to have been covered but it all reminds me of a true story I heard (slightly off subject) During WW1 horse were being rounded up from all over England and being shipped to France for the war effort. All types, draught horses through to blood riding horses - the owners of these poor creatures had no say in the matter, off they went. I'm sure most us are aware of what fate had in store. The subject of this story, a wealthy gentleman with a large estate and a yard of beautiful hunters, riding horses and brood mares (he was too old to be enlisted himself) took the gun and despatched his beloved animals - he couldn't bear the thought of what lay ahead for them.... I wonder, how would people on this MB describe him?
 
baran said:
I don't know of any disability scheme which would pay enough to keep you and a horse on full livery for 10+ years, which is how long the horse could have lived.
I was trying to make the point that you cannot say that you will never sell/PTS for financial reasons until the situation hits you. There were no heroic sacrifices she could make to keep the horse.
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It's called income protection and critical illness cover - I have both of these and I could afford to keep my horses at full livery if I became seriously ill or disabled. You can insure against anything...
 
littleshetland said:
Well I don't really have anything to add to this debate - all points of view seem to have been covered but it all reminds me of a true story I heard (slightly off subject) During WW1 horse were being rounded up from all over England and being shipped to France for the war effort. All types, draught horses through to blood riding horses - the owners of these poor creatures had no say in the matter, off they went. I'm sure most us are aware of what fate had in store. The subject of this story, a wealthy gentleman with a large estate and a yard of beautiful hunters, riding horses and brood mares (he was too old to be enlisted himself) took the gun and despatched his beloved animals - he couldn't bear the thought of what lay ahead for them.... I wonder, how would people on this MB describe him?
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:'( breaks my heart what war horses went through.
 
littleshetland said:
Well I don't really have anything to add to this debate - all points of view seem to have been covered but it all reminds me of a true story I heard (slightly off subject) During WW1 horse were being rounded up from all over England and being shipped to France for the war effort. All types, draught horses through to blood riding horses - the owners of these poor creatures had no say in the matter, off they went. I'm sure most us are aware of what fate had in store. The subject of this story, a wealthy gentleman with a large estate and a yard of beautiful hunters, riding horses and brood mares (he was too old to be enlisted himself) took the gun and despatched his beloved animals - he couldn't bear the thought of what lay ahead for them.... I wonder, how would people on this MB describe him?
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I would like to think I had the guts to do the same thing myself.
 
Yes, ditto - I think that the logic behind his actions was that he felt he had given them the best life possible, as they had given their best to him - he owed it to them to give them the best possible ending.
 
littleshetland said:
Well I don't really have anything to add to this debate - all points of view seem to have been covered but it all reminds me of a true story I heard (slightly off subject) During WW1 horse were being rounded up from all over England and being shipped to France for the war effort. All types, draught horses through to blood riding horses - the owners of these poor creatures had no say in the matter, off they went. I'm sure most us are aware of what fate had in store. The subject of this story, a wealthy gentleman with a large estate and a yard of beautiful hunters, riding horses and brood mares (he was too old to be enlisted himself) took the gun and despatched his beloved animals - he couldn't bear the thought of what lay ahead for them.... I wonder, how would people on this MB describe him?
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I would describe him as a very realistic and responsible owner. No living animal should have had to endure what those horses and mules had to go through.
 
I'm not the right person to answer this either, I have a old half blind useless pain in the arse lad who just costs me loads but he's loved and treated the same as the others and will not be pts until his time comes, but that's my horse, my money, my choice. I would never pass him on he would be pts if that ever became an option.

Iv got no issue with having horses pts if need be. There's a lady near me "saving" coloured cob foals from the meat man at the market, chucking them in a field not handling or doing anything with them and trying to sell for £50 each. Why??
 
Centauress said:
Is That REALLY Fair to The Horse or is it Just to Make Us Humans Feel Better???????
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I would never keep a lame horse in retirement unless it was comfortable if I can't keep them comfy I PTS at home.
There's no excuse for not medicating old horses if they are lame , non whatsoever ever .
Medicating the horse does not make me feel better it makes the horse feel better .
 
littleshetland said:
Well I don't really have anything to add to this debate - all points of view seem to have been covered but it all reminds me of a true story I heard (slightly off subject) During WW1 horse were being rounded up from all over England and being shipped to France for the war effort. All types, draught horses through to blood riding horses - the owners of these poor creatures had no say in the matter, off they went. I'm sure most us are aware of what fate had in store. The subject of this story, a wealthy gentleman with a large estate and a yard of beautiful hunters, riding horses and brood mares (he was too old to be enlisted himself) took the gun and despatched his beloved animals - he couldn't bear the thought of what lay ahead for them.... I wonder, how would people on this MB describe him?
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It was the same with the army horses in Egypt at the end of the war. Lots of the officers took their horses out into the desert and shot them, rather than leave them to the fate they knew was waiting.

Fast forward a few years and it was those pathetic survivors who once valiant, brave and strong war horses who had been reduced to starving, defeated cripples that led to Dorothy Brooke founding the Brooke Animal Hospital.

No one would tell her at first of any surviving British army horses, but she knew they must exist. In fact, the very first one she bought, she bought just to have it shot because it was that pathetic and had completely given up on the life it was being forced to continue with.
 
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I have always thought that most of the blood from the commercial blood banks becomes products not used for transfusion, the vet school certainly had their own blood donor horses (that could also be used for student handling) and my own vets used his own horse when they needed some- fewer logistics involved.

I wouldn't send a horse of mine.
 
Wagtail said:
I would like to think I had the guts to do the same thing myself.
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Me too. It's a horrible thought and I don't believe that every horse should just be disposed of the minute that it is no longer deemed useful, however there are much worse fates. In reality, I know that i'll struggle to make the call whenever the time arises for mine, but hope that I can do the best for them, however hard it is.
 
ester said:
I have always thought that most of the blood from the commercial blood banks becomes products not used for transfusion, the vet school certainly had their own blood donor horses (that could also be used for student handling) and my own vets used his own horse when they needed some- fewer logistics involved.

I wouldn't send a horse of mine.
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you are right,mostly they go for lab blood products used in tissue culture and microbial culture. There is specialised plasma used for treating certain diseases and this is collected from horses vaccinated several times with specific antigens against that particular disease. I am not sure if these blood bank companies are capable of producing these wrt facilities but they might do, the one I was involved with didnt at that time. I feel the term bloodbank is somewhat disingenuous tbh.

I am not massively for or against horses in bloodbanks and I do have the experience of seeing how the horses are kept in one regularly over eighteen months. Its not the worst life, its not the best either IME. Its not something I would choose for any of mine having experienced what I have.

People should be clued up about it though, its not some big altruistic heaven for broken horses to live out their lives. Visit a cattle shed over the winter (not saying there's anything wrong with that either before I get jumped on! Its just a bit removed from how most people view/look after horses)-thats how horses at the bloodbank are kept over the winter.
 
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