So many horses "over there" >> behind vertical

Cortez

Cortez

Tough but Fair
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Why is that? Is behind-the-vertical now considered "normal", or something to be aspired to? And its not just the amateurs either; so called professional pics show this consistent over-bent profile - is that really how people want their horses to go?
 
Well, I get what you mean - btv is not ideal, but I think in ads, people are trying to show their horses are 'schoolable' and obedient.
I've seen a lot of very good and successful pro riders working their horse in in various states of btv, and then gone in and done a wonderful test, no sign of btv.
 
Considering how much BTV gets a battering on here, I am always surprised at the number of ads with pictures of it. Earlier there was a horse going for a lot of money, over 6k, with absolutely dreadful pictures - going over a tiny fence making a terrible shape, or lack of one, and two pictures from the front with its head out to the side. This expensive horse was being advertised as good for dressage, sj or eventing, despite the pictures being so awful. I wonder if now that we advertise online, making the process much quicker, people don't put quite as much effort into getting a decent photo?
 
I saw an advert for schooling livery the other day. The photo was of a horse btv... won't be my first choice of schooling livery!
 
littleshetland said:
Well, I get what you mean - btv is not ideal, but I think in ads, people are trying to show their horses are 'schoolable' and obedient.
I've seen a lot of very good and successful pro riders working their horse in in various states of btv, and then gone in and done a wonderful test, no sign of btv.
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Yes, that's how rollkur works after all, but that doesn't justify it becoming "normal" surely? Or how even average horses are supposed to go?
 
yes, it's very in fashion in England. People even set up their horse BTV to pose for a picture. They achieve that by see sawing on the bit. Bonus points if you can do it while traveling forward.

ETA: I should say it doesn't concern me as most people just want the horse to assume a pretty tucked in stance for the picture and then return to normal, although there are some people that keep the horse like that all the time. I think that's how pony club teaches people to put their horse into an outline (clamp with your legs and see-saw with the hands then hold).
 
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Cortez said:
Yes, that's how rollkur works after all, but that doesn't justify it becoming "normal" surely? Or how even average horses are supposed to go?
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I see rollkur as something more extreme - but I agree, it shouldn't be normal, but not many of us are perfect riders - I suppose people think it looks better in an ad than an 'on the forehand , pokey nosey' kind of pic.
 
It does confuse me. Having written for a few judges in the past years, I'm still confused: although in conversation they didn't like the idea of BTV at all, in practice, those horses tended not to get penalised. Perhaps I'm not understanding something obvious, or there are subtleties of judging that I'm clueless about?
 
spookypony said:
It does confuse me. Having written for a few judges in the past years, I'm still confused: although in conversation they didn't like the idea of BTV at all, in practice, those horses tended not to get penalised. Perhaps I'm not understanding something obvious, or there are subtleties of judging that I'm clueless about?
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I'd noticed that :cool3:

If you're missing something obvious, so am I...
 
I read an article recently somewhere - (can't remember!) I think the gist of it was that the some or another governing body of dressage is thinking of changing the btv rule, and all making far more allowance for horses btv. The main criteria being that the horse is accepting and travelling forward into the contact and is in self carriage. Once a horse has learned to drop behind, it can be tricky riding them 'up', but thats not to say that they're evading the contact necessarily.
 
IME most people want the horse to have an arched neck, they think it looks pretty and that the horse looks better schooled. They pay little attention to what that arched neck is doing, how it is being achieved or whether the horse is on the forehand or not.
 
I don't understand it either - I am told whenever I question it that it us just a moment in time, horses not always like this etc but if that was the case we should only see a handful of pics BTV but in reality we see an awful lot.

I think there are maybe a few reasons, firstly eyes have been trained that this is a good way to ride, many professional riders ride BTV including show jumpers and dressage riders, a lot of gp tests the horses are BTV and then other people try to emulate it. A lot of riders now use LDR varying between very slightly deep or very deep, always this is BTV. Some riders who use this can still ride their horses with an open poll, some it appears cannot. My last thought is that everybody is trying to ride with a 'light' horse, they don't understand that many times when the horse feels light it is because they have ducked behind the bit and are avoiding the contact because of heavy hands.
 
Wheels said:
I don't understand it either - I am told whenever I question it that it us just a moment in time, horses not always like this etc but if that was the case we should only see a handful of pics BTV but in reality we see an awful lot.

I think there are maybe a few reasons, firstly eyes have been trained that this is a good way to ride, many professional riders ride BTV including show jumpers and dressage riders, a lot of gp tests the horses are BTV and then other people try to emulate it. A lot of riders now use LDR varying between very slightly deep or very deep, always this is BTV. Some riders who use this can still ride their horses with an open poll, some it appears cannot.



My last thought is that everybody is trying to ride with a 'light' horse, they don't understand that many times when the horse feels light it is because they have ducked behind the bit and are avoiding the contact because of heavy hands.
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This last part is very true, so many people equate light with nothing in the hand so they are aiming for it to be behind the contact, I like to feel the power come from behind into my hand and for a younger horse that will often feel a bit heavy until it can truly be in self carriage, it will never get into self carriage if it is ridden behind the contact or fiddled with constantly to keep it looking pretty.
 
I think that some horses can be to light in the hand. There must be a decent contact established so you've got something to 'push' the backend into. Getting the horse between hand and leg is what we are supposed to strive for. As long as the horse is soft and supple through his body, particularly his neck, travelling happily into a contact that suits both horse and rider, and they're working through their back, then I can't see a problem....
 
my instructor and I are currently schooling kasper to get him to accept the contact in a btv shape so that once he is consistent in his contact we can then ask him to come up and work correctly in the proper way.
I do agree though that lots of photos in ads show horses behind the vertical, but i think a lot people think it looks 'pretty'
 
Wheels said:
Paint me proud, do you know why your instructor uses this method? How exactly will you ask him to come up?
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to get him to understand he has to work down into the bridle and accept the contact when asked. To get him to work through his back and build up the muscles for self carriage before we ask him to come up. He has a naturally high head carriage so getting him back up wont be a problem.
 
Paint Me Proud said:
my instructor and I are currently schooling kasper to get him to accept the contact in a btv shape so that once he is consistent in his contact we can then ask him to come up and work correctly in the proper way.
I do agree though that lots of photos in ads show horses behind the vertical, but i think a lot people think it looks 'pretty'
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I think horses do look pretty with their necks arched! but as long as their soft through their necks and it's not forced and there's a happy contact. It's all about the backend being active and 'driving forward'. But there's no point in pushing the back end into a front end thats just not right......most horses are, after all, works in progress!
 
littleshetland said:
I think horses do look pretty with their necks arched! but as long as their soft through their necks and it's not forced and there's a happy contact. It's all about the backend being active and 'driving forward'. But there's no point in pushing the back end into a front end thats just not right......most horses are, after all, works in progress!
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Absolutly agree with this :D
 
JFTD said:
I'd noticed that :cool3:

If you're missing something obvious, so am I...
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Same.

Wheels said:
My last thought is that everybody is trying to ride with a 'light' horse, they don't understand that many times when the horse feels light it is because they have ducked behind the bit and are avoiding the contact because of heavy hands.
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This ^. I've had certain people tell me that my horse is leaning on my hands and needs a good jab in the mouth (yes, really) when what they're actually feeling is a decent contact. Proof of this is that mine will take the contact down and out if you loosen off your reins, and their horses stay 'up' in the BTV frame and are seemingly incapable of seeking the bit.
 
be positive said:
This last part is very true, so many people equate light with nothing in the hand so they are aiming for it to be behind the contact, I like to feel the power come from behind into my hand and for a younger horse that will often feel a bit heavy until it can truly be in self carriage, it will never get into self carriage if it is ridden behind the contact or fiddled with constantly to keep it looking pretty.
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Yes I feel this with my youngster but it's very different to pulling or leaning - much nicer feeling than the horse dropping the contact but not taught by very many instructors!!
 
Wheels said:
Yes I feel this with my youngster but it's very different to pulling or leaning - much nicer feeling than the horse dropping the contact but not taught by very many instructors!!
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Very different to pulling or leaning, confidently taking a hold going forward, if you are going to jump it usually means they take you to the fence in a positive way so you know you will get to the other side, something that is too light can be tricky to ride as it finds it easy to duck behind, once they are really engaged the lightness will come from self carriage, so many people want short cuts they resort to gadgets and end up with a horse btv.
 
What matters about BTV is why the horse is there .
Conformation makes a huge difference to how horses carry and hold their necks .
And horses in different stages of their training will do different things .
Just because a horse is a little BTV at time does not mean a good mark can't be scored because other things are good that what horses who go BTV at times in tests can achieve good marks.
Judges are marking the whole horse , if we did tests based only on the position of the head it would be different .
 
Paint Me Proud said:
to get him to understand he has to work down into the bridle and accept the contact when asked. To get him to work through his back and build up the muscles for self carriage before we ask him to come up. He has a naturally high head carriage so getting him back up wont be a problem.
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coming up doesn't have to do with the head or neck, it's about the horse folding their hock and shifting more weight onto their hind legs. This is achieved by mobilizing the hindquarters and make the horse "step under" using lateral work and transitions.
Now if your horse is normally above the bit, I understand the need to make him stretch the topline and lower his head (long and low) but it is preferable to encourage that with a "pokey nose" type of outline (not necessarily easily achieved and particularly in a stressful setting like a competition). It's just that fiddling with reins to get the horse to tuck his head in will just result in the horse developing a hard mouth or distrust the contact.
 
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Rather like Paint me Proud I have a horse that I work BTV. This isn't done by 'fiddling' & making his mouth hard I can assure you.
For him it's a trade off. He tends to go inverted, holds tension through out his whole body & can become inconsistent in the contact. By riding him deeper & allowing a slightly longer than ideal frame, yes I lose a little of the impulsion (but I still ensure the hind legs are engaged) but it keeps him softer, he works over his back, is softer through the jaw, is happier to work into the contact. Therefore his straightness, rhythm & contact are much more improved, which is what keeps my dressage scores higher - I'm only talking about at lower levels obviously!!
Now I think as this horse does more lateral work & starts becoming strong enough to step under more this will 'push' the head position up into a much more desirable place (he head isn't winched BTV he places it there by how I work the whole body) this will keep the softness but in a more correct frame.

Ironically my other horse is NEVER allowed to go BTV. He will duck behind the contact & whilst looking 'pretty' with an arched neck his hocks will trail & his paces go 'choppy'. His favourite evasion is to go over bent & too light in the hand. So for him he works on the vertical or even ever so slightly above.

It's all about riding the horse underneath you & I think sometimes you have to sacrifice the perfect frame to concentrate on other aspects of the training.
 
Have to say I hate BTV I would not train like it or have an instructor who promoted it. I used to ride a tb type who had been taught like this and would have been a good grass roots dressage horse.

But every time you put any pressure on her she evaded nose on chest. Just as bad as star gazing imo.

I would prefer slightly above the vertical as you have room to train down. Much easier than training up!
 
lawa said:
Have to say I hate BTV I would not train like it or have an instructor who promoted it. I used to ride a tb type who had been taught like this and would have been a good grass roots dressage horse.

But every time you put any pressure on her she evaded nose on chest. Just as bad as star gazing imo.

I would prefer slightly above the vertical as you have room to train down. Much easier than training up!
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IMO the TB type you rode is a horse who has been ridden 'front to back'. I.e someone has fiddled or been harsh with the mouth until they have had no place to go but hide behind the contact. I absolutely 100% agree that this is totally incorrect & unacceptable.

However I do believe that there are other circumstances where allowing BTV isn't totally incorrect & the rider to be dragged from their horse & beaten until they beg for mercy 😜
If I asked my 1st horse to work in a shorter frame with his poll higher it would hammer his relaxation, suppleness, rhythm, straightness, he would become inconsistent in the contact & he would be building the wrong muscles by working inverted. For this horse it's a trade off, not ideal but works for him.
 
Oh & I disagree about it being easier to train down than up. If a horse is worked correct but slightly BTV into a consistent contact with a longer frame, as they step under more & become stronger it pushes the poll higher & then the frame shortens.
As long as everything is done by influencing the back end then it's no harder.
 
to get him to understand he has to work down into the bridle and accept the contact when asked. To get him to work through his back and build up the muscles for self carriage before we ask him to come up.
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I don't understand this logic at all. You're setting your horse up for doing the complete opposite of what you want at the moment.

All the time that your horse is being forced behind the vertical, he isn't and won't be working through his back correctly or building up any of the right muscles.

It's very hard to train a horse to move forwards and correctly once it's been trained to carry its head BTV. You'd be much better off working your horse long and low to build the correct muscles, and doing lots of slow lateral work/raised pole work.

The bit is the absolute last element to actually being 'on the bit'.

coming up doesn't have to do with the head or neck, it's about the horse folding their hock and shifting more weight onto their hind legs. This is achieved by mobilizing the hindquarters and make the horse "step under" using lateral work and transitions.
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