So many horses "over there" >> behind vertical

glamourpuss said:
Oh & I disagree about it being easier to train down than up. If a horse is worked correct but slightly BTV into a consistent contact with a longer frame, as they step under more & become stronger it pushes the poll higher & then the frame shortens.
As long as everything is done by influencing the back end then it's no harder.
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I would say it's easier to train a horse which has no concept of contact and star gazes than one which has been fiddled and forced BTV though - you don't have to entirely over-write everything.

A horse which naturally isn't capable of supporting an OTV carriage and creeps slightly BTV in a consistent contact isn't the issue for me (and most of the horses in the adverts I've seen lately as so far behind the vertical, it's rather unnatural).
 
JFTD said:
I would say it's easier to train a horse which has no concept of contact and star gazes than one which has been fiddled and forced BTV though - you don't have to entirely over-write everything.

A horse which naturally isn't capable of supporting an OTV carriage and creeps slightly BTV in a consistent contact isn't the issue for me (and most of the horses in the adverts I've seen lately as so far behind the vertical, it's rather unnatural).
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I guess that's the crux isn't it. Is the BTV forced or is it allowed. I'd say in my horses case it's allowed because at this point this is what he can offer me. It's not what I'm striving for!
 
glamourpuss said:
I guess that's the crux isn't it. Is the BTV forced or is it allowed. I'd say in my horses case it's allowed because at this point this is what he can offer me. It's not what I'm striving for!
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Indeed: forced or accepted. And the extent of how far BTV. A few inches? That's (arguably) developmental. When the horse is curled over and so far adrift of the vertical, I personally don't think that is an acceptable training intermediate and it indicates something is wrong with the system (unless the horse is a very remedial case!).
 
JFTD said:
Indeed: forced or accepted. And the extent of how far BTV. A few inches? That's (arguably) developmental. When the horse is curled over and so far adrift of the vertical, I personally don't think that is an acceptable training intermediate and it indicates something is wrong with the system (unless the horse is a very remedial case!).
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Agreed!
 
I am quite shocked at the number of people who say it's OK for the horse to be BTV, that it's just a stage they're going through. I have a horse that was broken and ridden in England and it's taken me three YEARS to get him to start to put his nose forward, this has impacted massively on his training and progress and he may never be able to do what he can do because of it. Do people not understand the mechanics of what they are doing?
 
Cortez said:
I am quite shocked at the number of people who say it's OK for the horse to be BTV, that it's just a stage they're going through. I have a horse that was broken and ridden in England and it's taken me three YEARS to get him to start to put his nose forward, this has impacted massively on his training and progress and he may never be able to do what he can do because of it. Do people not understand the mechanics of what they are doing?
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I tried to give you 'reputation' for this post but I've given you too much and it won't let me! But I fully agree.
 
Cortez said:
I am quite shocked at the number of people who say it's OK for the horse to be BTV, that it's just a stage they're going through. I have a horse that was broken and ridden in England and it's taken me three YEARS to get him to start to put his nose forward, this has impacted massively on his training and progress and he may never be able to do what he can do because of it. Do people not understand the mechanics of what they are doing?
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Like I said I ride the horse that is underneath me. I strive for perfection & I'm confident with what I'm trying to achieve however I'm also a strong believer in listening to my horse. He hasn't read the scales of training so he can only offer what he is physically able to do at this point.
I can promise you my horse will not take years to get to take his nose forward, as he gets stronger & more able to take weight behind he will be able to work in a more shortened frame with the poll high.....look I'm not talking 'tied in, chin on chest, broken at 3rd vertebrae' here just a deeper, longer frame where the nose is allowed to drop behind the vertical as long as he maintains the contact & steps through from behind.
There are lots of things I don't like about his current way of going:
1) He is poll deep
2) He is BTV
3) his frame is longer than desired & he doesn't take enough weight behind
But equally there are things I do like about his way of going
1) He is relaxed & soft
2) he maintains a good rhythm
3) he works into a consistent contact
4) he is straight

Now I think is head position is just one piece of the overall picture, for this horse I feel I have to establish the other building blocks as a foundation which will influence this.

Is this way of training correct for every horse. No.
Am I completely numpty who shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a horse.....well... umm the jury is out on that one 😜
 
Totally agree Cortez. I'm not saying my horse is perfect and never goes BTV, he is young and finding his balance but when he does he is immediately asked to come out of it. I dont want my horse thinking it's correct.

There you go Cortez, your original question has been answered, why do you see so many horses BTV is because people think it's OK and is helping their training and stretching their horse
 
Glamourpuss, if you don't like the fact that he is BTV with a low poll and straggly, on the forehand, etc., then don't ride him that way! There are lots of things/exercises that will help to remediate all of those. If he is working into a contact (which my horse which was BTV was really not able to do) then you have the answer (literally) in your hands.
 
Interesting - my horse did go through a phase (now past I hope) in his progress through re-schooling when he was pretty much consistently BTV (previous stage was consistently headbanging so I considered this some improvement) Interestingly I did used to get comments about it in Dressage and for a while my success depended wholly on how much the judge was bothered by it. But what used to bother me is that I would see my typical warmblood types go in just as behind and get no comment on it and get good placings where as my smaller pony type would be very penalized. I know a pro producer who always rides everything BTV and she goes out even BD and come home first second and third - ??
 
Cortez said:
Glamourpuss, if you don't like the fact that he is BTV with a low poll and straggly, on the forehand, etc., then don't ride him that way! There are lots of things/exercises that will help to remediate all of those. If he is working into a contact (which my horse which was BTV was really not able to do) then you have the answer (literally) in your hands.
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I am using exercise etc to change that way of going. It's certainly not straggly BTW & I think that is a pretty rude assumption on your part there!
Introducing lateral work is making him stronger & encouraging him to step under, I certainly won't 'hold' the head position low & BTV he will be encouraged to push his nose out & come up in the neck.
I felt was no point introducing lateral work, transitions, pole work on an inverted horse, who is inconsistent to the contact & tense. What is that achieving for him?
I wish I could post a pic from my phone it would give you some idea the level I'm talking about. [sigh]

This is just a training route I have taken on one of my horses because it works for him. The other is never allowed to dip BTV. Never. If he tries he is ridden up out of it. But then this is a different horse, who is stronger & able to take a more correct path.

Like I said I try to ride the horse underneath me, I also have a very experienced instructor (happy to tell who over PM) who guides me & I trust completely.
 
It's simply not sensible to assume every horse who goes BTV is doing it for the same reason and is being ridden the same way .
With some it's literally just a phase they go through as they experiment with their balance and gain strength .
With others like the one Cortez bought it's a more serious training fault .
And all the shades in between .
 
Goldenstar said:
It's simply not sensible to assume every horse who goes BTV is doing it for the same reason and is being ridden the same way .
With some it's literally just a phase they go through as they experiment with their balance and gain strength .
With others like the one Cortez bought it's a more serious training fault .
And all the shades in between .
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Thank you! You've explained things exactly.
 
Goldenstar said:
It's simply not sensible to assume every horse who goes BTV is doing it for the same reason and is being ridden the same way .
With some it's literally just a phase they go through as they experiment with their balance and gain strength .
With others like the one Cortez bought it's a more serious training fault .
And all the shades in between .
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yes, but I think the original question is why people choose the pictures where the horse is very BTV to advertise their horse. I think it is simply that they think it is correct/ make the horse looks prettier, as much as a horse with a "pokey nose" is considered bad whilst it is totally normal. But have to say I have had a phase with my mare where she would intermittently come BTV and had to drive her forward out of it.

glamourpuss, have you tried to give about an inch of reins and drive the horse forward?
My experience is that a horse that is above the bit will naturally come round when you are doing lateral work if you ask him to bend the body (not just the neck), even if he is normally above the bit.
 
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Palindrome said:
yes, but I think the original question is why people choose the pictures where the horse is very BTV to advertise their horse. I think it is simply that they think it is correct/ make the horse looks prettier, as much as a horse with a "pokey nose" is considered bad whilst it is totally normal.

glamourpuss, have you tried to give about an inch of reins and drive the horse forward?
My experience is that a horse that is above the bit will naturally come round when you are doing lateral work if you ask him to bend the body (not just the neck), even if he is normally above the bit.
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As to why people use bizarre pictures in adverts , I have no idea , well above my pay grade the answer to that one , in true HHO fashion we got side tracked .
 
As to why the photos are chosen I don't understand but certainly I've had horses that as youngsters have dipped behind the vertical as they learn to carry the riders weight and stretch thru their backs. They also poke their noses from time to time. Both are incorrect but I don't strive to alter their head carriage,I strive to get good equal contact with a straight body initially and more bend as they strengthen. If they dip behind for a few days so be it. If they poke - so be it.
 
blitznbobs said:
As to why the photos are chosen I don't understand but certainly I've had horses that as youngsters have dipped behind the vertical as they learn to carry the riders weight and stretch thru their backs. They also poke their noses from time to time. Both are incorrect but I don't strive to alter their head carriage,I strive to get good equal contact with a straight body initially and more bend as they strengthen. If they dip behind for a few days so be it. If they poke - so be it.
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I completely understand the early days wobbliness of head carriage and contact; this is what it is to be a young, unbalanced horse of course. What confuses me is how BTV seems to have become not only acceptable but the desired outlook, as evidenced by the photos that people are choosing to show their horses at their best; this is worrying.
 
Cortez said:
I am quite shocked at the number of people who say it's OK for the horse to be BTV, that it's just a stage they're going through. I have a horse that was broken and ridden in England and it's taken me three YEARS to get him to start to put his nose forward, this has impacted massively on his training and progress and he may never be able to do what he can do because of it. Do people not understand the mechanics of what they are doing?
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Just to clarify, before MyDogIsAnIdiot deletes the quotation of mine in their signature in dismay, I don't think it's "OK" for a horse to be BTV. I think it's understandable that some horses fall BTV due to their conformation and lack of strength and training. My younger one certainly does. My response is to ride him forwards and certainly not encourage it. I don't think it's "OK" to be star gazing either, but I accept that sometimes mine will both have a yak and I endeavour to correct that too (with the leg, not the hand).


And I agree wholeheartedly on the photo front. They're not falling behind momentarily due to a lack of muscle. They're overbent, forced or by fiddling. (And yes, I regularly want to mash their faces into blenders for it!)
 
JFTD said:
Just to clarify, before MyDogIsAnIdiot deletes the quotation of mine in their signature in dismay, I don't think it's "OK" for a horse to be BTV. I think it's understandable that some horses fall BTV due to their conformation and lack of strength and training. My younger one certainly does. My response is to ride him forwards and certainly not encourage it. I don't think it's "OK" to be star gazing either, but I accept that sometimes mine will both have a yak and I endeavour to correct that too (with the leg, not the hand).

And I agree wholeheartedly on the photo front. They're not falling behind momentarily due to a lack of muscle. They're overbent, forced or by fiddling. (And yes, I regularly want to mash their faces into blenders for it!)
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Not happening, I like that quote! :)
 
Cortez said:
I completely understand the early days wobbliness of head carriage and contact; this is what it is to be a young, unbalanced horse of course. What confuses me is how BTV seems to have become not only acceptable but the desired outlook, as evidenced by the photos that people are choosing to show their horses at their best; this is worrying.
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I think it is fashionable, like a lot of things horsey! Look at the polethera of schooling gadgets and gimmicks available.. Gives a more instant quick fix result and some rosettes along the way. It takes a strong minded rider to take the often slow road when surrounded by the 'get the outline quick crew'. Young riders are particularly easily affected! I have had my fair share of dabbling with various pieces of tack and reins over the years much to my horses dismay and dare I say it... I see the light!

..now where did I put those draw reins?!?!
 
JFTD said:
And I agree wholeheartedly on the photo front. They're not falling behind momentarily due to a lack of muscle. They're overbent, forced or by fiddling. (And yes, I regularly want to mash their faces into blenders for it!)
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This.. I had a lesson with an instructor who seemed to think this was the way to get my OH's hot, tense and sensitive mare to relax into a contact. His theory was hoik her head in, keep it there and let it out gradually.. :/ so sacked him and got a new one ;) mare is still hot and sensitive, but decidedly less tense.
 
Or the hibiscrub thread where she joked asking if anyone wanted to buy her horse? Maybe some button pusher took that seriously.
 
Cortez said:
I am quite shocked at the number of people who say it's OK for the horse to be BTV, that it's just a stage they're going through. I have a horse that was broken and ridden in England and it's taken me three YEARS to get him to start to put his nose forward, this has impacted massively on his training and progress and he may never be able to do what he can do because of it. Do people not understand the mechanics of what they are doing?
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Obviously not, judging by some of the replies you've elicited!

I was definitely put off what could have been a very nice horse by the photo which I am guessing was the one which stimulated this thread.

I would change my instructor if I found one who knew so little as to actually train the horse to consistently be btv.
 
Gah, I wasn't going to post again.

This is MDIAI - I asked for my account to be deleted/banned/whatever. Please don't blame admin :). I'm taking a step back from participating in the horsey world, I'm also thinking about selling up and have been for a while. An earlier comment from a thread has cemented in my mind why I've been thinking that. I'll still be here reading but won't be posting or taking part in discussion. I don't really have much to add anyway as I'm so novice/stupid/rude.

I still <3 your quote (and you!) JFTD, no fear!
 
IWillNeverPost said:
Gah, I wasn't going to post again.

This is MDIAI - I asked for my account to be deleted/banned/whatever. Please don't blame admin :). I'm taking a step back from participating in the horsey world, I'm also thinking about selling up and have been for a while. An earlier comment from a thread has cemented in my mind why I've been thinking that. I'll still be here reading but won't be posting or taking part in discussion. I don't really have much to add anyway as I'm so novice/stupid/rude.

I still <3 your quote (and you!) JFTD, no fear!
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That's a huge shame, I really enjoy your posts. I think you are a valuable member of this forum.
 
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