So many horses "over there" >> behind vertical

[alainax]

I have one who likes to dip btv, although is doing it much much less now. he will still do it from time to time though, even when I have no contact!

It's an easy place for him to put his neck, he does it in hand and when at liberty too.

I find myself doing the opposite of most people nearby. I'm trying to get his head out * whilst everyone is trying to get the head in! I am always trying to choose the pic I put carefully, and not the moments where he is btv. Yet if I do put up the odd one or two slightly btv pics, the get more likes! Weird world!

I do have a question though, which I don't think merits it's on thread. Just theoretical, as I'm not riding ATM. How do you get a horse who is very forward out from btv if they go there with minimal contact?

We are always taught that the horse needs to be forward and work from behind, but what if when you try minimally to contain this forward energy, the result is btv? I know ther is a difference between just being fast and flat, & forward and working from behind, but to work from behind you surely need to stop it all escaping out the front. To get the horse to "sit".

From previous lessons the advice has varied from jingling the reins like little bells to get the head up, to taking the contact,even if it's btv, as he needs to have something there to accept. Even the old treat the reins like your are pushing a shopping trolley and push him up from the withers.

I've figured with my boy it's all about seat, weight aids, transitions and very soft aids to get him to accept the contact. With a thick steady egg butt snaffle. It just seemed to click one day with the balance and contact, now he collects, works over his back and stretches out when asked for a longer frame.

I guess I just wanted to point put that not all horses are btv because we put them there, ( I sure you all know that anyway, I just feel dreadful when being watched and he is btv!) also that just saying to ride the horse forward into the contact might not be the fix all rule, but I 100% agree that it wouldn't be my choice of advert pic!


*not literally ofc! Aiming to get him working correctly and to become accepting of the contact.

 

[gmw]

btv, rolllkur etc etc why is the horse that's the one that has to adapt!! Its the rider that needs to ride in balance with the horse. Time! correct riding! and properly fitted tack will achieve this. Majority of us will never learn the proper feeling of riding a horse in balance and proper self carriage.

 

[Polar Bear9]

Someone asked if I disregarded head carriage . The answer is most of the time - yes. It's the last piece of the puzzle. In my experience ( and I've trained up to GP )If everything else is in place it just happens on its own. I insist on good equal contact on a straight line, and hips behind shoulders add impulsion and you've got the start of great self carriage and work of the whole top line. I think of the horse as a whole . So I only ever think of head carriage as part of the whole.

The only time I have ever ridden for head carriage is on my GP horse, in competition, to get his head up more into a shorter frame... As he liked to duck behind the bit in piaffe and if I didn't ride his head up I got a pants transition to passage...

I see, sorry, I was assuming that you meant you regarded head carriage as pointless (as in ride your horses round with their noses in the air) rather than regard it as a product of correct riding. I don't remember who's who on here so had no idea of your experience level.

 

[NZJenny]

I tried to give you 'reputation' for this post but I've given you too much and it won't let me! But I fully agree.

x3, so have "given" as well.

 

[Wheels]

I have one who likes to dip btv, although is doing it much much less now. he will still do it from time to time though, even when I have no contact!

It's an easy place for him to put his neck, he does it in hand and when at liberty too.

I find myself doing the opposite of most people nearby. I'm trying to get his head out * whilst everyone is trying to get the head in! I am always trying to choose the pic I put carefully, and not the moments where he is btv. Yet if I do put up the odd one or two slightly btv pics, the get more likes! Weird world!

I do have a question though, which I don't think merits it's on thread. Just theoretical, as I'm not riding ATM. How do you get a horse who is very forward out from btv if they go there with minimal contact?

We are always taught that the horse needs to be forward and work from behind, but what if when you try minimally to contain this forward energy, the result is btv? I know ther is a difference between just being fast and flat, & forward and working from behind, but to work from behind you surely need to stop it all escaping out the front. To get the horse to "sit".

From previous lessons the advice has varied from jingling the reins like little bells to get the head up, to taking the contact,even if it's btv, as he needs to have something there to accept. Even the old treat the reins like your are pushing a shopping trolley and push him up from the withers.

I've figured with my boy it's all about seat, weight aids, transitions and very soft aids to get him to accept the contact. With a thick steady egg butt snaffle. It just seemed to click one day with the balance and contact, now he collects, works over his back and stretches out when asked for a longer frame.

I guess I just wanted to point put that not all horses are btv because we put them there, ( I sure you all know that anyway, I just feel dreadful when being watched and he is btv!) also that just saying to ride the horse forward into the contact might not be the fix all rule, but I 100% agree that it wouldn't be my choice of advert pic!


*not literally ofc! Aiming to get him working correctly and to become accepting of the contact.

I will be interested to hear from those who ride BTV and at some point are going to 'bring the horse up' of how they will actually do it, to me this is a difficult thing to achieve although I have some ideas. Cortez mentioned earlier that it took her 3 yrs to solve this issue with a horse she retrained so may not be as simple as people think. Therefore for me, I will continue to ride my horse and try my best not to end up BTV in the first place

 

[Palindrome]

okay, lots of comments whle i've been at work.

My original two posts were just a very quick explanation of SOME of the work we do with my horse during his lessons. The most important thing we are doing is getting him engaged from behind, driving his engine forward to bring him more together.

The way ee are working him makes perfect sense for him, and i think it depends a lot on the individual horse. I had lessons with another instructor for 18 months without really making any progress with him, 4 months of new instructor are horses whole attitude to work is changing, he's better off the leg, more willing, understand when to soften and is maintaning a better rhythm.

When i lengthen the rein he stretches down and forward and i ride with rather long reins anyway so i'm not hauling him in and holding him there.

Please dont think all we do is drag his head in btv, what we do we are doing for a reason and it is working. We arent trying to just make him look pretty, we are trying to establish the correct way of working, from behind, off the leg into the bridle.

It's hard for me to explain myself through text, so I do hope you all understand

Yes, I hope I didn't come through as judgmental. It's just not possible on a forum to give an informed opinion about how the horse is ridden/trained (except perhaps when someone posts videos asking for feedback), we can only debate on the theory of riding which will apply differently according to the horse and rider conformation, temperament and experience and comment about our own experience and observation of those who ride around us.

 

[Goldenstar]

I will be interested to hear from those who ride BTV and at some point are going to 'bring the horse up' of how they will actually do it, to me this is a difficult thing to achieve although I have some ideas. Cortez mentioned earlier that it took her 3 yrs to solve this issue with a horse she retrained so may not be as simple as people think. Therefore for me, I will continue to ride my horse and try my best not to end up BTV in the first place

It can be difficult to retrain a horse who has been trained that what the rider whats is it's nose tucked in ,it's back down and the hock coming along behind, if you add in some bad use of draw reins and fair bit of running around in a Pessoa then you can have a job on your hands .
But that's not the same thing as a horse who gets him self BTV when he's learning the work ,if you get a incorrect head positioning as the horse experiments I think sometimes it's best to leave well alone rather than correct the front at the expense of keeping the horses focus on the engine .
Then you use the lateral work and transitions between the paces and within the paces to show the horse the best place to be .

 

[glamourpuss]

It can be difficult to retrain a horse who has been trained that what the rider whats is it's nose tucked in ,it's back down and the hock coming along behind, if you add in some bad use of draw reins and fair bit of running around in a Pessoa then you can have a job on your hands .
But that's not the same thing as a horse who gets him self BTV when he's learning the work ,if you get a incorrect head positioning as the horse experiments I think sometimes it's best to leave well alone rather than correct the front at the expense of keeping the horses focus on the engine .
Then you use the lateral work and transitions between the paces and within the paces to show the horse the best place to be .

Thank you Goldenstar! That is perfectly put.
A horse who has been forced BTV is a nightmare to retrain, a horse who goes BTV as a stage in his training will move himself to a more correct frame (& please note I said FRAME as in the WHOLE body not just the position of the head & neck!) as they become stronger.
There are levels of BTV, some may call what I ride long & low but IMO the front of the face is behind the vertical so not ideal & therefore BTV.

I will reiterate AGAIN. With this horse it is not my goal to have the horse BTV rather it is a point in his training that I am accepting because, unlike many others it would seem, I don't see the position of the head & neck as the be all & end all.
If this horse could offer me all the plus points I mentioned before & be above the vertical then, absolutely yes he would be ATV, but [deep sigh as I repeat myself again] schooling a horse is about the whole horse not just it's head & neck. I feel I need to establish rhythm, suppleness, straightness & acceptance of contact, I need to encourage the horse to take more weight behind as his strength allows which in time will shorten the frame. We will then move towards self carriage. If on this path of training the horse shows he is able to come ATV without become tense or inverted & still remain relaxed, swinging, straight & in a rhythm then it will also be allowed. I don't ever punish a weak horse for experimenting with how they want to hold their head.

I love HHO I've been told my reins are too short & my medal winning trainer is poo! 😂 all from a few written words. Amazing.

 

[Tobiano]

It seems to me that the original point of the thread was to question why so many horses are shown btv in pictures that are (or should be) designed to show them at their best (and some are very expensive!) which implies that the people posting the ads (often professionals) either believe themselves that this is the best way of going or perhaps think that a prospective buyer will think that. This is different from the transient or occasional - or even mid-training - posture that has been referred to in the thread.

I am a cr*ppy rider but I wouldn't want to buy a horse if the seller was a proponent of btv as being the ideal. Just saying.

 

[sandi_84]

It really would put me off buying if I saw pictures of a horse being ridden BTV most especially from the proffesionals but never the less it would put me right off.

I do believe it has become the fashion because people think it is pretty and also because sadly it seems to be getting good results in competitions

I know of at least one riding school that was teaching the see saw method as standard and explaining to the children and adults that this horrible jabbing of the mouth was not only acceptable but also desirable in order to get the horse into the "outline" needed to make the horse work correctly.
I was even accused of being a lazy rider because I decided to opt out of this practice in a lesson on my green horse because I didn't want to be jabbing his mouth because it completely contradicted all my previous riding experience where I was taught this was the worst thing you could possibly do! I did some home work and confirmed to myself that I wasn't going mad and that this is indeed completely the wrong way to get a horse to work correctly. I have posted about this a fair bit because it really upsets me to see.

I posted on facebook a while ago with a link (I think I stole it from someone here) showing the skeleton and muscles of a horse ridden when in a natural proper outline and one ridden being pulled into an outline. It explained the differences in both, how they were achieved and the unnatural strain it puts on a horse when ridden pulled and tweaked into "outline" and how bad it actually is for the horse.

I put it up in the hopes that some of the younger riders I know would see it and have a read, maybe making them think that what they were being told as gospel wasn't always the truth and that doing your own research can be helpful to your own understanding and also the damage they were doing to their horses by see sawing and fixing their hands to tuck their horses heads in.

Sadly I still see pictures of horses pulled in BTV with hands still firmly clamped to the sides of the pommel