So National Trust have voted to ban trail hunting because …

[palo1]

I know I'm going to regret this, but ..... there hasn't been a single poster denying that illegal hunting is taking place, nor has anyone tried to defend it.

If you have evidence of illegal hunting, report it.

Quite!

 

[Clodagh]

How could a rider (presuming that you mean a hunt follower) make a claim against a hunt?

Negligent mastering, maybe???

There is plenty of first hand evidence of hunts damaging livestock and property, though.

ETA From one of the recent hunting leaks exposės, a hunt was shown gone to its insurers to settle the claim from a motorist whose car was damaged by a hound which ran onto the main road. Don't think that the hound did too well, either .

A hunt caused RTA could result in a huge claim.

When I was on the hunt committee it had to be rejigged to be set up as some form of limited company, I totally can’t remember the details, to ensure that the committee weren’t liable in the event of a large claim.

 

[Old school]

What I am trying to say is that large payouts have not been to landowners or motorists. They have been to mounted riders. For what it is worth, the Irish farmer is not in the habit of making claims against the hunt, that is a fact.

AFAIK the claims are settled behind closed doors. I am open to correction but I don't think an Irish hunt has been found guilty of negligence in a Irish court of law.

The remark made about poor Mastering is closest to the (k)nub of the issue. While the UK has issues re legal trail hunting, it is exemplary in the management of the Field. This has not been successfully replicated in Ireland. That is very regrettable and is the driver for where Irish hunting finds itself today. OAO.

 

[ycbm]

I know I'm going to regret this, but ..... there hasn't been a single poster denying that illegal hunting is taking place, nor has anyone tried to defend it.

If you have evidence of illegal hunting, report it.

Well this is exactly why this argument is still going on after 17 years.

How does an individual prove that a trail hasn't been laid?

How does an individual prove that a trail was deliberately laid so weak that the hounds would inevitably hunt fox if there was one in the area?

If hard evidence was easier to obtain then this would all be done and dusted by now.

It doesn't mean it hasn't happened just because that evidence has not been available.

I'm pretty sure I know what the reaction of the Police would have been ten years back if I had said "Mr/Mrs x and y (ETA 3 different hunts) invited me out hunting and when I asked if they were hunting fox they said yes".
.

 

[palo1]

Well this is exactly why this argument is still going on after 17 years.

How does an individual prove that a trail hasn't been laid?

How does an individual prove that a trail was deliberately laid so weak that the hounds would inevitably hunt fox if there was one in the area?

If hard evidence was easier to obtain then this would all be done and dusted by now.

It doesn't mean it hasn't happened just because that evidence has not been available.

I'm pretty sure I know what the reaction of the Police would have been ten years back if I had said "Mr/Mrs x and y (ETA 3 different hunts) invited me out hunting and when I asked if they were hunting fox they said yes".
.

Well they would have asked you to prove it tbh if they had been interested at all.

ETA - If I rang the police to say that Mr J had suggested a night at the pub downing beers and that he would drive home because it was only a short distance (or other reason) I suspect their reaction would be the same. They might turn up to see but without proof of a crime what can they do? Mr J might have no intention of drinking or every intention of drinking...

 

[Fred66]

There is plenty of first hand evidence of hunts damaging livestock and property, though.

ETA From one of the recent hunting leaks exposės, a hunt was shown gone to its insurers to settle the claim from a motorist whose car was damaged by a hound which ran onto the main road. Don't think that the hound did too well, either .

A hunt caused RTA could result in a huge claim.

I would agree that there are instances, however I would also suggest that there are far less instances caused by hunts compared to by general members of the public not controlling their dogs or when making use of rights of way.

Equally the hunts will in the majority of cases repair / make reparation for damage caused, which is more than generally done by the general public

 

[ycbm]

Well they would have asked you to prove it tbh if they had been interested at all.

Sadly I wasn't carrying recording equipment at the time.
.

 

[paddy555]

Well yes and it is frustrating and inconvenient. However it is something that the police have advised hunts to do/not to do (ie don't hand out meet cards).

do drag hunts publish meets? I looked on google and some appear to list dates publicly. Obviously I have not checked all of them.

 

[Mule]

Interesting news on another thread that Irish hunts, which still hunt fox and deer, can't get their public liability insurance renewed as no underwriter can be found who will take it on.

I wonder if that has anything to do with the ways in which hunts behave?

So far it's been blamed on Brexit because the previous underwriters were British, (which, even if it's true that UK underwriters can no longer underwite risk in Ireland, doesn't explain why no other EU underwriters will take it on) and the litigious nature of the Irish (are they really more litigious than Brits?)

It seems to me on the face of it much more likely that it's because of how often hunts do damage that they can be held liable for and the perceived risk of big payouts (eg hound causing fatal traffic accident).

It will be a real turnaround if the thing that finally kills hunting is the lack of commercial viability of public liability insurance.
.

We are horrendously litigious. Ireland rivals America for it. Amenities are closing down because the insurance companies naturally respond to the claims culture with sky high insurance costs.

 

[Mule]

do drag hunts publish meets? I looked on google and some appear to list dates publicly. Obviously I have not checked all of them.

They do

 

[palo1]

do drag hunts publish meets? I looked on google and some appear to list dates publicly. Obviously I have not checked all of them.

I think it varies enormously. The most local drag and bloodhound packs to me don't provide a meet card but generally use social media to inform people of at least the next meet on the calendar. Things are prone to change so it isn't always a good idea to publish a meet card as you annoy people when you then do something different and not everyone gets that note!

 

[Mule]

I think it varies enormously. The most local drag and bloodhound packs to me don't provide a meet card but generally use social media to inform people of at least the next meet on the calendar. Things are prone to change so it isn't always a good idea to publish a meet card as you annoy people when you then do something different and not everyone gets that note!

Now that I think about it, my local drag hunt just puts everything on facebook

 

[paddy555]

I think it varies enormously. The most local drag and bloodhound packs to me don't provide a meet card but generally use social media to inform people of at least the next meet on the calendar. Things are prone to change so it isn't always a good idea to publish a meet card as you annoy people when you then do something different and not everyone gets that note!

I appreciate things can change but you suggest they use social media to inform people, presumably that is all people who may be interested. Mule clearly thinks they do.

So why? What I am getting at is that details of drag hunts appear to be relatively freely available yet for trail hunts it is like pulling teeth.
If both are legal ie drags following a drag and trail hunts following a trail why the difference.
Anyone should be able to look up either and see where they will be.

They don't need a meet card simply to put dates for the next week on SM

Do you see the point I am making? one lot seems to be "open" to the general public looking at their activities and the others to quote TP "secret squirrels"

I have been looking at hunt insurance. Can you confirm that by law a hunt must carry insurance. I have been unable to find that they must and indeed a suggestion that it is not a legal requirement. Obviously it is clearly prudent to do so but legally necessary?

 

[minesadouble]

There will always be a requirement to shoot farm animals. I doubt many people would be unable to have their horse shot if there wasn't a hunt.
.

I was tempted to make a separate thread for this comment but was unsure how to phrase it!
My own comment has actually made me consider further the situation.
Locally to me we have gone from 6 knackermen to one.
We have a large herd of cattle and our local knackerman takes anything injured but in a fit state to travel, he takes them live.
Anything too injured to travel is shot by ourselves at home, in common with most farmers.
I honestly think that given a few years there may well be difficulty having a horse PTS at home by gun if that is your preference.
Sorry for derailing the thread a bit but hunts do provide a valuable service in this respect and also in taking fallen stock for farmers. I realise that this has little impact on most people reading this thread but there are many out there who are grateful for it.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

do drag hunts publish meets? I looked on google and some appear to list dates publicly. Obviously I have not checked all of them.

My most local one publishes 1st half of season on the website and on their Facebook page.
Same with nearest trail hunt.

 

[paddy555]

My most local one publishes 1st half of season on the website and on their Facebook page.
Same with nearest trail hunt.

just looked up my local one o FB and it has the instruction not to give meet details.

 

[palo1]

Traditionally our meet card has been available on request and has been physically handed to neighbours and known interested parties (ie riding schools, livery yards etc). In these parts not everyone with a horse or pony gets a meet card as that would just not be practical but we haven't experienced any problems with disturbance or complaints either.

 

[paddy555]

Traditionally our meet card has been available on request and has been physically handed to neighbours and known interested parties (ie riding schools, livery yards etc). In these parts not everyone with a horse or pony gets a meet card as that would just not be practical but we haven't experienced any problems with disturbance or complaints either.

that sort of missed the point I was making in post 283. Why not just put it on your hunt's FB group so anyone who wanted to know could look. That way anyone who was interested could see.
There I have saved your hunt money in printing card costs.

Which is your hunt?

 

[palo1]

I have just looked up a few local hunts and most have a variety of information but meet information would be in a members area. All of them have information for visitors and contacts that people can use. It is the same for my local Riding Club where one off events are public but info about training dates are in the members area. I think social media invites that approach in fact.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

just looked up my local one o FB and it has the instruction not to give meet details.

That's a shame and also very irritating, I'd contact the Masters to find out why.
Our local trail used to do that but are now very open, tho they still have trouble with some uneducated anti's, (the monitors also get exasperated by these bussed in students) they now go out of their way to publish meets. These only get cancelled or location changed if weather causes ground issues for parking or crossing land.

 

[ester]

Cambridge drag put their meetcard on their website and on public fb page.
https://www.cudh.co.uk/meet-card

We need to know weston and banwell dates for home but haven't had a meet card for years, usually a helpful neighbour about 5 miles away or our freelancer are able to let us know (we needed to sedate one).

 

[GSD Woman]

Stupid American question, what is the difference between trail and drag hunting?

 

[Caol Ila]

Stupid American question, what is the difference between trail and drag hunting?

You and me both! I have been reading these threads for years, but I have no idea. Given that the Central Belt of Scotland isn't serious hunt country, none of my horsey friends have any more clues than myself.

 

[cauda equina]

Stupid American question, what is the difference between trail and drag hunting?

Drag hunts follow an artificial scent (I thing it's aniseed) which is very strong, therefore easy for hounds to pick up and follow.
Draghunting is therefore much more full-on than following a natural quarry - faster and with fewer checks

Trail hunts use a natural scent - fox urine, or there used to be something called 'fox juice' - liquor of decomposing fox
Hunting a trail is supposed to replicate the true experience of foxhunting more closely

 

[ycbm]

Draghunting is therefore much more full-on than following a natural quarry - faster and with fewer checks

This depends on what fox hunt and drag hunt people go out with. I went out with a hedge jumping hunt that was every bit as full on as any drag I've ever done. Another was similar with the obstacles being walls. It depends very much on what type of country is being hunted.

The biggest difference I've found betwen fox and drag was the predictability of the jumping opportunities and the frequency and length of the checks when you and your horse get a rest. They also, ime, start later and run for a shorter time, only 3 to 4 hours.

The biggest difference now between trail and drag is probably the scent being used.
.

 

[palo1]

This might be useful reading for anyone who wants to understand the legal realities of prosecutions under the Hunting Act: https://www.huntingact.org/prosecutions/summary/

In 17 years of trail hunting there have been 90 convictions for illegal trail hunting.

There have been 497 prosecutions under the act in total (including the 90 for trail hunting).

That information details the prosecutions and at least 1 acquittal on appeal since the Hunting Act was passed. In terms of illegal trail hunting there are some serial offenders.

There are numerous convictions for illegal hare coursing and other non trail hunting offences.

Here are the Ministry of Justice figures for convictions for illegal trail hunting:

https://www.countryside-alliance.or...ng/prosecutions-under-the-hunting-act-by-year

Figures for all Hunting Act prosecutions, provided by the Ministry of Justice up to 2019, are in brackets.


As a proportion of all illegal hunting convictions illegal trail hunting currently stands at about 10%.

These are not opinions or research but facts.

Of course that does not include the nuisance issue that anti-hunters experience. That is more likely to be recorded locally alongside other nuisance issues including near misses to horse riders, dog attacks on livestock including sheep and horses, dangerous cyclists, motorbikes, illegal green laning, trespass by eg off road bikes etc.

 

[ycbm]

This might be useful reading for anyone who wants to understand the legal realities of prosecutions under the Hunting Act: https://www.huntingact.org/prosecutions/summary/

In 17 years of trail hunting there have been 90 convictions for illegal trail hunting.

There have been 497 prosecutions under the act in total (including the 90 for trail hunting).

That information details the prosecutions and at least 1 acquittal on appeal since the Hunting Act was passed. In terms of illegal trail hunting there are some serial offenders.

There are numerous convictions for illegal hare coursing and other non trail hunting offences.

Here are the Ministry of Justice figures for convictions for illegal trail hunting:

https://www.countryside-alliance.or...ng/prosecutions-under-the-hunting-act-by-year

Figures for all Hunting Act prosecutions, provided by the Ministry of Justice up to 2019, are in brackets.


As a proportion of all illegal hunting convictions illegal trail hunting currently stands at about 10%.

These are not opinions or research but facts.

It's a crime that it's very difficult to obtain concrete evidence for, and that type of crime frequently goes unpunished.

The conviction rate for any offence committed with little or no verifiable evidence bears no relationship to the number of crimes committed.

There are people from all over the country on this forum telling you that their area is being fox hunted yet you appear to think that because your own hunt is clean the problem is tiny, because in 17 years there have only been 9 convictions.

It isn't tiny, the successful prosecutions are the tip of a large iceberg, just like rape/fraud/speeding convictions.




PS you refer to illegal trail hunting, there is no illegal trail hunting, only illegal fox hunting.

 

[ycbm]

Of course that does not include the nuisance issue that anti-hunters experience. That is more likely to be recorded locally alongside other nuisance issues including near misses to horse riders, dog attacks on livestock including sheep and horses, dangerous cyclists, motorbikes, illegal green laning, trespass by eg off road bikes etc.

There is no relationship between one off instances involving individuals or small groups of individuals and an organisation with a large group of subscribers paying to take part in weekly (or more frequent) planned events for 5 to 6 months of the year.

This constantly repeated whataboutery in an attempt to deflect blame is getting very irritating.
.

 

[mariew]

Which is your hunt?

Considering the amount of venom that gets spewed at Palo I think this is an incredibly irresponsible question to ask. Palo I hope you don't identity where you are on a public forum.

 

[Rowreach]

Considering the amount of venom that gets spewed at Palo I think this is an incredibly irresponsible question to ask. Palo I hope you don't identity where you are on a public forum.

I'm sure she won't.