So were the posters who backed Jamie Gray "Trolls" ?

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Can you tell us anything about Grays previous conviction for causing unnecessary suffering to a horse?

With regards to the present judgement, did Gray buy the horses in bad condition?
surely if the horses health started to deteriorate after he brought the horses and they were being treated by a vet....if the horses showed no or little signs of improving surely they would have got a second opinion from a different vet?
How long has he been a dealer?
 
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Your post sums you up Patty......

You do not know right from wrong.

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I most certainly do know right from wrong. And I think it is beyond wrong to lie about people the way the RSPCA have lied about the Gray family.

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If you are happy to keep animals in the same conditions as the Grays, who have been convicted of cruelty, (the whole family), then it shows you are equally as horrible and callous as them.

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If I was happy to keep animals in the conditions that the RSPCA and media have said Mr Gray kept his animals, then I would agree with you. However, the conditions inwhich Mr Gray kept his animals is nothing like what has been claimed.
 
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Can you tell us anything about Grays previous conviction for causing unnecessary suffering to a horse?

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Yes, a horse was removed from a field by the RSPCA. Mr Gray was prosecuted and found guilty. Mr Gray had no knowledge of the prosecution until he received notice that he had been found guilty. Mr Gray appealed and won.

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With regards to the present judgement, did Gray buy the horses in bad condition?
surely if the horses health started to deteriorate after he brought the horses and they were being treated by a vet....if the horses showed no or little signs of improving surely they would have got a second opinion from a differnt vet?
How long has he been a dealer?

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Apart from the pets Mr Gray brought them over a short space of time prior the the raid. Off the top of my head I remember a lot was brought on the 18th of december 07.

Mr Gray told the court that when peole buy in Lots from auctions there are always ponies among them that are not in as good condition as the rest of them, but such animals do come on well, though sometimes they can also go back and lose condition no matter how hard you try to build them up. However, the one's Mr Gray was working with were coming on well considering he had not had them very long.

When Katie Robinson examined them on the 21 of December 07, she was happy with how they were coming on. One particular horse was saved from the knacker man by Mr Gray.
Mr Gray put that horse on bute while he waited for the farrier to come out to it.

Horse dealing has been in his family for 4 generations. - Mr Gray has been a dealer his entire working life.
 
It is a shame Patty didn’t speak up during the court case and give character references for the defence instead of spending her time posting on this thread. The evidence was overwhelming, I for one would rather trust the district judge and not Patty’s judgement.
 
If JG is a good caring horseman and has nothing to be ashamed off as “Judge Patty” has informed us, why was he then admitted of Bad Character in this case, with a propensity to commit offences of this kind and why was he found guilty (upheld on appeal) by Hemel Hempstead court of causing unnecessary suffering to an animal in October 2006 then. Perhaps that case was also a travesty of justice in “Judge Patty’s” eyes also.
 
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..It was given in evidence in court and the knacker man wasnt back to work from the christmas holiday......


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17th DECEMBER 2008:

Mick Wills – knackerman – called to assist in removal of carcasses. Confirmed that he and colleagues would have been available over Xmas period on 24/7 basis

http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/docs/judgments_guidance/rspca-gray-others-witnesses.pdf

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A very interesting read smallholder, thank you for posting that. It should save Patty's record, it just seems to keep getting stuck. The document says it all.
Jamie Gray Jn sounds like a nice chap.... According to the document When asked his name he replied 'suck my crack'.
 
patty. you have said on this thread that you do not know JG and his family but simply took an interest in the investigation, if I understand you correctly.

If this is true you could not have been at the farm before the RSPCA visited, or there when the RSPCA and Police attended, nor there subsequently when further animals were removed (you commented earlier that one was removed because it had a 'scratch on its leg' - that is so not true, I saw those ponies and they were walking skeletons but you will be happy to know they have put on weight with good care).

So, if everything you are saying here is simply a report of what you have heard the defence say in court you are horribly, horribly naive.

i don't know what your issue is with the RSPCA - but you are very mistaken if you believe that any miscarriage of justice has taken place here. Those of us who have known of JG's activities for years know this - you should just come to terms with it, there is nothing you can say to defend this family.

JG has more Court cases in the pipeline, I understand, on other matters (all horse related), hopefully this is enough to put him and his family out of business and away from all animals for a very, very long time
 
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Another one who should be ashamed is Mr Nick White, of the World Horse Welfare. He and Mr Gray know eachother, and he has traded with Mr Gray in the past. He keeps donkeys. On the day of the seizure he kept apologising to Mr Gray. He goes to auctions but I'm not sure he'll be attending too many now after the lies he told in court.

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Why would he not attend anymore auctions???????????
 
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uploaded photos onto photo bucket but cant post them in here

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And what about all the other animals - where are the photos of them?

The photos you have posted are of young stock. Now how about you tell the board how long Mr Gray had owned them?

As for them having no food....your photos tell us quiet the opposite. And please take note of the straw.

Please dont even bother trying to say that the RSPCA put it all there........they didnt - nor did they even try to claim as such in court when photos were put to each witness and asked about the food and bedding.

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I think you will find those pictures were taken at the rescue centre
 
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Sorry Patty can you show us photographic evidence that the carcasses were dug up as to me the coloured particularly looks like it was left to rot where it fell..

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I cant show photographic evidence of them being dug up as no photos were taken of the dig. The RSPCA didnt even admit to digging them up. They said they found the bones just scattered over the farm. But if that were the case then Claire Ryder and Katie Robinson would have seen them when they were at the farm 2 weeks before hand.


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If the RSPCA did dig up buried animals I would like to see them taken to task over it.

the animals I have seen deep littered in barns were on straw

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They are a powerful organization - they can get away with anything.

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So JG was at his farm while the bones were being dug up and never thought to take pictures or are you saying the RSPCA sneaked on the property in the dark of night and dug bones up?... sorry that sounds like utter twaddle
 
M_G, further to your comments..
I have done joint inspections with the RSPCA, we went to one farm where on first appearances everything looked OK, the ponies in the fields seemed healthy enough, if a bit light and it was only when we rooted around the barns we discovered that two of them had false backs, and behind these were groups of yearlings penned in to tiny spaces together. They were fighting, injured, hungry, thirsty and two were in immediate need of veterinary care to prevent permanent serious disability.

Sometimes places can be far worse than they seem - but you have to go and look. It may be that on visits only being shown selected animals or barns, the true horror of what was going on was not clear
 
Mother Hen it breaks my heart hearing of all the suffering out there caused by heartless people who dont give a sh1t about the animals in their care.

Yes if a vet was called to look at a certain animal they are not going to wander round the property, they look at that animal then leave
 
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There is no money to be made in dead horses. A dead horse is a financial loss to the trader.

Healthy horses are worth more than sick horses - So it would also be in the traders best interest to keep them healthy..

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18. Mr. Parker produced a report on 1st February paragraph 49 he states:

“Mr. Gray would have to make a decision having got his purchases home, whether to spend a lot of money in veterinary attention attempting to recover lost causes, or to seeing his best way out financially by maybe letting the weaker animals succumb"

http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/docs/judgments_guidance/rspca-gray-others.pdf
 
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Yes, a horse was removed from a field by the RSPCA. Mr Gray was prosecuted and found guilty. Mr Gray had no knowledge of the prosecution until he received notice that he had been found guilty. Mr Gray appealed and won.

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43. Mr. Gray was convicted in 2006 ( upheld on appeal ) of causing unnecessary suffering to a Piebald colt by unreasonably failing to obtain veterinary treatment for the horse’s diarrhoea – fine £3,500 and deprived of ownership of the animal,

http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/docs/judgments_guidance/rspca-gray-others.pdf
 

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How many were lame?

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1. And Mr Gray had only just purchased it. He called his farrier and put it on bute until the farrier could get out to him.


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3rd April 2009

William Beech – Farrier called in rebuttal of Mr. Gray’s ssertion that he had carried out farrier work at Spindles Farm. Does not know Mr.James Gray, has not been to the farm. Attends Southall and Langley Fair. Remembers Jamie Gray Jnr bringing a horse to him to shoe. Thought it was Jamie’s horse – . Cannot recall making arrangements to go to Spindles. Farm

http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/docs/judgments_guidance/rspca-gray-others-witnesses.pdf
 
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Yes, a horse was removed from a field by the RSPCA. Mr Gray was prosecuted and found guilty. Mr Gray had no knowledge of the prosecution until he received notice that he had been found guilty. Mr Gray appealed and won.

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I won't be posting any more extracts from the links, this last one is just to clarify beyond a doubt that James Gray DID NOT WIN THE APPEAL....

75. Bad Character
By virtue of Section 101(1)(d) I have ruled that the previous conviction of James Gray be admitted in evidence because of its relevance to a propensity to commit offences of this kind. Now that all the evidence has been heard. it clearly is a relevant factor to be weighed, as it is relatively recent to the date of these allegations. It involves a failure to prevent unnecessary suffering by not getting veterinary treatment for an animal.. It will be part of my final deliberations

http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/docs/judgments_guidance/rspca-gray-others.pdf
 
Just out of interest what did Mr Gray actually do with all these horses? surely he didnt sell them to the public? or did he buy them to sell for the meat trade? & where did he buy them from?
Every animal deserves a level of care. how anyone can defend him & his family It makes me speechless.
 
"KH3 had paraphimosis-its penis was massively swollen ..blistered and sore with blood dripping from it and staining its hind legs”

Why was this not dealt with?

"There at 5.30pm and saw the behaviour of people trying to move the horse, saw Mr.Gray, with young female and young boy. Mr. Gray and young male tied rope to head and tail to drag horse to trailer. Saw young male kick horse."

Charming!

"a number of carcasses. .approx 8-10 in varying states of decay"

Why would they dig up 8-10 carcasses I still don't understand?

"Hallmarks of suffering:
A The large percentage of animals which were thin or extremely emaciated
B The absence of feed in the pens and fields on the first visit on 4th January
C The dejected depressed appearance of the animals
D The abnormally long straggly hair coat
E The fact of gross overcrowding in the pens, the tie-up areas and in the
Paddocks
F The competitive aggression amongst the surviving animals
G The absence of any place where a horse could rest and lie in comfort
H The matted filthy condition of the horses
I In cases where injury or illness was evident, there had been no attempt to
isolate or treat the sick animals
J The absence of evidence of any epidemic disease which could have led to
the signs shown by these animals
K Samples of blood taken from a number of the horses show changes which
are indicators of starvation and neglect"


If that's not abuse then I don't know what is...
 
Welcome Back Smallholder......nice to see you on here again....
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anyone thats seen them at the trust knows that this is the barn where they were kept

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I assumed those photos were taken at SF because they look identical (by what I can see of them) to the barns at SF.

So I am sorry for my quick assumption.
 
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patty good morning to you i trust you are well???

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Good afternoon. I am well thank you. I hope you are well too.


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to your reply about you no longer have a horse well i some how think think thats for the best dont you???

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If you say so.

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in reply to your comment about me not believeing the media well i have to say i find the photos pretty real and see in no way they are photoshopped or such like???

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I have no reason what so ever to believe they are photoshopped or such like.

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and im correct in thinking they are actually spindles farm???

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you are indeed.

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i feel that this is enough evidence for me fogive me if you feel i am ignorant, the photos the PW has posted are eveidence and unless you are sugesting that i , PW and other members of this forum have visual imparements then we will leave it at that.

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What do those photos of the dead animals actually tell you apart from the the fact that they are dead?

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as to you comment about the rspca will prosicute your "ass" with any luck they will stick a cap in it
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best wishes
x

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No chance!!
 
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HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
17th December 2008
Katie Robinson – veterinary surgeon from Baskerville, Hogan and Partners.
The Grays are clients of practice. Visited Spindles Farm before to certify equines fit
for export. She had been called by The RSPCA to assist in the inspection. She was
distressed by observations of compromised animals, conditions of pens and farm
environment etc. Contacts a senior partner R. Baskerville for advice as situation
beyond her experience. “The smell of rotting horse flesh was overpowering… the
animals had obviously been dead for days…..The bedding was sodden and filthy
dirty…KH1 was emaciated and very weak…propped against a water trough…KH3
had paraphimosis-its penis was massively swollen ..blistered and sore with blood
dripping from it and staining its hind legs”
Produces plans, notes , Pro Forma Veterinary Examination forms Exhibits Pros Vet
0001-0035
Not cross-examined by defence
Patty was not expecting this info i think

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Well you think wrong PW....

I posted a link for the site.

But wasnt it you who said something about Baskerville was not Grays vet and wouldnt work for someone such as him?

Yes it was.
 
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Mick Wills – knackerman – called to assist in removal of carcasses. Confirmed that
he and colleagues would have been available over Xmas period on 24/7 basis
crawl back under your stone you ..did not expect this did you ?

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After having sat through the case I feel the contaxt of the report paints a completely different picture of what really went on in court.
 
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reading through all of that;def right verdict........just had to post 1 last time on this tread
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Do you also think it was fair for the judge to dismiss all defendants testimonies just because they gave no comment interviews at the police station, which they were instructed to do by a lawyer?

Maderline Forsyths evidence was basically dismissed because she didnt agree with the prosecutions vet Mr Green. Was that fair?

Was it fair to dismiss Mr Parkers evidence because he felt unwell during the trial (for a day)? Mr Parker gave evidence of what he found when he visited the different locations to where the animals were being kept. He wasnt unwell then.

Was it right that Kirsty Hampton was allowed to re-write her statement and be recalled to the stand because while hearing another prosecution witness give evidence, her 'memory was jogged'?
 
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Why would he not attend anymore auctions???????????

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I should think after all the lies he told, that he would be ashamed to show his face at another auction.
 
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99.999% of people cannot understand why anybody would be so neglectful of their animals as Mr Grey has appeared to, and has now been found guilty of. So I don't have a clue but would hazard a guess at:
1) The operation grew too big
2) Funds were short

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1) The court heard that Mr Gray has always kept a large numbers of animals.

2) Could not have been that short because he purchased some of those animals not long before they were removed.

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But really, who but the man himself knows why there were so many horses that were starving and dead on his property.

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There was not a shred of evidence produced in court that any of those animals were starving or starved.

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TBH this just sums it up for me. He had no excuses for the condition of these animals.
 
Good evening patty. I would like you to make an open and honest statement about who you are, what your relationship is with this case, and why you took it upon yourself to become so interested in it.

You have replied to this style of question twice now with what are in my opinion evasive answers, very much the style of a politicians. In order to stop me from believing that you are either fake, or in some way linked with the defence team, please can you OPENLY and WHOLLY explain the above to me in plain english as I seem to have missed something.

Thank you.
 
Patty,

you are right, the grey's evidence was dismissed very quickly. However, even though he was advised to give 'no comment', this was still his choice. I agree with you on this one thing BUT the guy (& his son) are as guilty as it gets. Perhaps the video & photographic evidence was enough for the Judge??

Since you are so hell bent on defending Mr Grey - have you seen (yourself) the horses that were rescued? They were certainly NOT a picture of health. They did not receive adequate feed & vet care. As John Parker suggests, perhaps the weakest were left...? As it's cheaper for nature to take its course?

There were many dead animals & carcases. My understanding is that these were burned to get rid of bodies, again perhaps to save the expense??

As you say, they are not worth anything to him in this state. But I'm sure as you're so close to him / his family that you will know that there is more to come & further charges to be delt with... I can only imagine this will be 'old news' to you as you claim to be so in the know...??
 
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