So what has British Eventing done wrong?

[Ambers Echo]

I agree with you on nearly all of this (particularly that BE should be inclusive and represent the sport at all levels) - the only point that I'd like to understand better is that the unaffiliated events are offering a better 'competition structure'? Is it literally just that there's a series?

Because in terms of the 'structure' of the competition - lots of things are missing - officials, rider reps, MERs, safeguarding policies.... none of which is attractive to you or me from a 'nice day out' perspective I get that!

So if its the series structure that you and others like, I don't understand why regional leagues can't be established under the BE banner.

My take on it would be:

1. drop the registration costs altogether for 80 level,
2. bring 70 level under that umbrella too - make 70-80 a BE free intro level - and make it FUN and informal (and v much about getting people into the sport safely)
3. let venues put these competitions on in the same way they have been, but bring them under the BE umbrella by name
4. Add in sliding scale membership for 90s and 100s
5. Run a league series for each area - utilising pre-existing Brigante cup for the North, Cotswold Cup for Central and west mids, and SEEL for the South East (add in SW, Scotland, East Mids, Wales)
6. Introduce the restricted sections for people to use if they want to
7. bring back the training and camps that helped to foster friendships and community
8. run more fun leagues - veteran leagues, adults on ponies, native breeds, cobs, thoroughbreds (well we sort of have this already)
9. do more to directly link riding club and pony club into BE - join-up on running events, make MERs count across the piece

BE should NOT be trying to be exclusive or aspirational, or limit its activities to the exclusive higher levels. That is NOT what any sporting body should be doing - that's a backwards looking and elitist viewpoint.

Look to other sports

[caveat, i know nothing about football, but...] the FA is responsible for football at all levels - youth, women's, disability football, amateur adult football (including walking football for older people) AND the top end of the premier league or whatever their leagues are called

England Athletics covers every level of running activities - if I run in my local 5K race, it is england athletics affiliated. But they also looka after the top end of hte sport...

Yes they should do all that!

By competition structure, maybe I just am not very good at navigating the BE website but it is very hard to work out what is going on and how to qualify for it.

Initially I just wanted to event and had no interst in a league or anything. So I started at 80T in 2018, BE90 in 2019 and intended to start at BE100 in 2020 but Amber went lame. That was all fab. JUst doing it atall was a dreeam come true so I wasn't fussed about qualifying or leagues.

But now I am starting again on a new horse and I went on the BE website and FB pages to see what I could do that mimicked Katie's U18s experiences: That was loads of fun - choosing qualifying events, needing to get her DCs and aiming to make it to Bishop Burton for a chance to ride a much longer championship course with the long arena for dressage and the SJ on the last day. It was a realistic but inspiring goal.

But when I looked at what is around, I can't make head nor tail of Badminton GR. The qualifying period seems very long and it feels out of reach anyway, even if I could work out what was going on. The 2 DCs for an Area Festival is a good goal but almost too easy! So the Brigante Cup offers exactly what I was looking for really. If BE did something simialr I would do that instead because I do understand about the hidden costs and I do want to support BE. But they are not making it very easy for me to do so just now, when compared to the unaff offer.

 

[RachelFerd]

Yes they should do all that!

By competition structure, maybe I just am not very good at navigating the BE website but it is very hard to work out what is going on and how to qualify for it.

Initially I just wanted to event and had no interst in a league or anything. So I started at 80T in 2018, BE90 in 2019 and intended to start at BE100 in 2020 but Amber went lame. That was all fab. JUst doing it atall was a dreeam come true so I wasn't fussed about qualifying or leagues.

But now I am starting again on a new horse and I went on the BE website and FB pages to see what I could do that mimicked Katie's U18s experiences: That was loads of fun - choosing qualifying events, needing to get her DCs and aiming to make it to Bishop Burton for a chance to ride a much longer championship course with the long arena for dressage and the SJ on the last day. It was a realistic but inspiring goal.

But when I looked at what is around, I can't make head nor tail of Badminton GR. The qualifying period seems very long and it feels out of reach anyway, even if I could work out what was going on. The 2 DCs for an Area Festival is a good goal but almost too easy! So the Brigante Cup offers exactly what I was looking for really. If BE did something simialr I would do that instead because I do understand about the hidden costs and I do want to support BE. But they are not making it very easy for me to do so just now, when compared to the unaff offer.

I think Badminton GR is such a cursed set-up. The timing makes no sense whatsoever as a championship, BUT if you took GR away from Badminton there would be an outcry as so many people aim to get there. So for BE its damned if you do and damned if you don't. The appeal of riding at Badminton is probably keeping a lot of people as members. But if its also the thing putting you off (because having a qualification process that takes longer than a year is madness...) then its also bad. It would make so much more sense to run it all at an event like Kelsall in September for example - very unlikely to have weather-related cancellation, amazing facilities, has the size and scope to put on really impressive tracks and host all of the extra stuff that would add to a championship experience... BUT people want to go to Badminton.

 

[ester]

Did it go elsewhere before it went to badminton or did it not exist at all?

 

[RachelFerd]

Did it go elsewhere before it went to badminton or did it not exist at all?

It was at Aston le Walls and no-one was remotely interested in it as far as I can work out!!

For what it's worth - here's my made-up way this would work:

1 March - 30 June - 4 month initial qualification period - at BE80/90/100 level - qualify by getting 3x double clears, OR 1x top 10% placing
July & August - area festivals - with a better geographical spread - you can only compete at 1, top 20% qualify
September - championships - at Blenheim to run alongside a 'big' event, or Cornbury for big event feel... or Kelsall for something standalone but with potential to be impressive

 

[Ambers Echo]

Just another issue - I am not IT savvy, but nor am I especially thick. I have found entering BE events online utterly, utterly, utterly infuriating! The different memberships and tickets and validation and whatever else. And some events having a different entry process. And things not working. I must have rung the office 10 times. Luckily they are lovely and very patient! Youth Eventing was even worse - I was in a circular loop from The Youth Eventing Home page, to the 'Find Out More Page' to the Events page which took you back to the Youth Eventing home page. There was no list of qualifying events for each region either. I had to get that from the regional coordinator.

And last year having just about worked out how to enter, the whole printing out numbers at home was impenetrable too. Even after I finally found out you needed to go to Eventing Scores to print them, I still could not see where on the site - anywhere - it told you to do that. And there was no icon on Eventing Scores either saying NUMBER PRINTING. You are just meant to somehow know.

So the first thing they could do is ditch their entire wretched site and start all over again from scratch!

 

[TPO]

Just another issue - I am not IT savvy, but nor am I especially thick. I have found entering BE events online utterly, utterly, utterly infuriating! The different memberships and tickets and validation and whatever else. And some events having a different entry process. And things not working. I must have rung the office 10 times. Luckily they are lovely and very patient! Youth Eventing was even worse - I was in a circular loop from The Youth Eventing Home page, to the 'Find Out More Page' to the Events page which took you back to the Youth Eventing home page. There was no list of qualifying events for each region either. I had to get that from the regional coordinator.

And last year having just about worked out how to enter, the whole printing out numbers at home was impenetrable too. Even after I finally found out you needed to go to Eventing Scores to print them, I still could not see where on the site - anywhere - it told you to do that. And there was no icon on Eventing Scores either saying NUMBER PRINTING. You are just meant to somehow know.

So the first thing they could do is ditch their entire wretched site and start all over again from scratch!

More than a few people have similar complaints and even more so considering the amount of money wasted, sorry, spent on the revamp ?

 

[Roxylola]

I'm pretty sure they've had extra tickets off me due to the online entry adding for horse and rider even when you only need one. I think it seems very unnecessarily complicated

 

[Ambers Echo]

More than a few people have similar complaints and even more so considering the amount of money wasted, sorry, spent on the revamp ?

Honestly it drives me mad. It smacks of arrogance: "We can have a sh1t site because people have to somehow find a way to enter".

There are plenty of really good commercial sites out there. They HAVE to be good because people won't shop with rubbish sites if they have a choice about it. People know how to to build flexible, user friendly sites! Employ one of them to do it!!

 

[RachelFerd]

Just another issue - I am not IT savvy, but nor am I especially thick. I have found entering BE events online utterly, utterly, utterly infuriating! The different memberships and tickets and validation and whatever else. And some events having a different entry process. And things not working. I must have rung the office 10 times. Luckily they are lovely and very patient! Youth Eventing was even worse - I was in a circular loop from The Youth Eventing Home page, to the 'Find Out More Page' to the Events page which took you back to the Youth Eventing home page. There was no list of qualifying events for each region either. I had to get that from the regional coordinator.

And last year having just about worked out how to enter, the whole printing out numbers at home was impenetrable too. Even after I finally found out you needed to go to Eventing Scores to print them, I still could not see where on the site - anywhere - it told you to do that. And there was no icon on Eventing Scores either saying NUMBER PRINTING. You are just meant to somehow know.

So the first thing they could do is ditch their entire wretched site and start all over again from scratch!

I'm not an IT genius, but I managed to successfully enter a BE event whilst using a mobile phone, quite tipsy, in the toilets at an italian mountainside refugio because I realised I was about to miss a ballot date... it still only took 5 minutes.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Lucky you! Once you are a full member and your horse is validated and you are entering for yourself it's not too bad. Trying to enter on behalf of an U18 yo is a different matter. It is totally non intuitive. Every time I come back to the site I have to re-remember (or ring the office yet again) because it is not remotely clear how to do it. Or trying to validate a new horse, or trying to enter on a different type of membership...... Nightmare.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Or maybe I am just very very stupid

 

[LEC]

Badminton was a game changer for the 90/100 lot who are eligible. Top 20% at Bicton 3 day also qualify.
The current system in theory is fine as regional finals was messy, but at least at right time of year. This years finals are a mess starting in may!! Corinthian cup works nicely with its Q process.
I don’t get the sentiment about not opening the sport up. Every sport needs a strong pyramid. The standards of riding I think are on the whole better than they used to be and there is the odd bit of horrendous looking riding but it’s rare. Even unaff I thought the standard was pretty good and I was at 90 and 100 last year.

 

[RachelFerd]

Lucky you! Once you are a full member and your horse is validated and you are entering for yourself it's not too bad. Trying to enter on behalf of an U18 yo is a different matter. It is totally non intuitive. Every time I come back to the site I have to re-remember (or ring the office yet again) because it is not remotely clear how to do it. Or trying to validate a new horse, or trying to enter on a different type of membership...... Nightmare.

That does sound awful. It just seems like a few tweaks to the system could resolve it - the way people talk about it (or indeed, about the new Horse Monkey) its like its the worst thing ever - when really, for standard entries at least, it is pretty much OK. If you want to see a truly godawful chocolate fireguard of a system, try the HR or recruitment systems I have to battle with at work...

 

[ester]

ALW is kind of the opposite on the scale of interesting places to hold a championship compared to badminton. ?

 

[ester]

More than a few people have similar complaints and even more so considering the amount of money wasted, sorry, spent on the revamp ?

They were advertising for a new IT manager last week

 

[EventingMum]

My take on opening the sport up is that venues can only have a certain number of competitors running and quite a few stopped running higher classes in favour of running extra sections at the lower levels, negating the need for the higher level courses and this saving money which was hard for those trying to compete at those higher levels as we had to travel further. I agree it's great to encourage everyone to take part in a fabulous sport but the one or two horse amateur competing a higher levels did seemed disadvantaged.

 

[Orangehorse]

I love Eventing. It’s where my heart lies. Nothing quite compares to the excitement of pulling into a beautiful country park, parking next to an Olympian and galloping across hallowed turf.

We never did BE to any dizzy heights, but did dream of it. I was only able to enjoy it because I was fortunate to have family backing, mum enjoyed the day out and supported my entries through Uni. Dad kept the car and trailer on the road and when we were traveling further, mum used a small inheritance to buy a little lorry. We had a lot of fun, and we aimed for the likes of Cholmondely Castle and Allerton Park. Places you wouldn’t otherwise be able to ride.

It felt special, and I think we still have all the programmes with our name in.


But life moves on. Buying a house at the moment, trying to get another young horse educated. Keep a career going. Maintain a semblance of a social life (aka. Not lose touch with good friends) and see my partner.

I really really want to do BE again. But this year if we can event, it’ll be unaffiliated. I really won’t be able to justify the additional cost of competing BE. I’m not sure I’ll be able to justify Eventing full stop, but might sneak a couple of events through the budget to give me goals. Goals keep me motivated.

That is a perfect description of why people love eventing.

 

[billylula]

I think 80cm was brought in to Eventing Ireland last year. I evented for a couple of years in Ireland at 90cm. I noticed, looking around at my group, our fitness and position was massively different (worse) than the riders at 100cm up. I can imagine 80cm riders would be similar

I fence judge for BE and I have to say the BE80 classes are usually absolutely fine - of course there is the odd one who can't ride (!) but in my experience its the top pros evening young horses who are the most 'amateurish' - missing out fences etc because they don't walk the course!

 

[billylula]

You've always had to pay to register as an owner - that isn't new.

I saw your cost estimate before and that's whopping isn't it - but I'm also not surprised by it. I have done the sums on my two and whilst i'm not a big spender, I'm still spending only just under the UK average salary on keeping and competing my two.





I'm not sure that we can blame the BE80 and BE90 crowed on killing the lovely old courses. I think a lot of estates are being managed differently due to intensifying pressures which mean that having a hobby activity of running a lovely bespoke horse trials just isn't an option any more. Correlation not necessarily causation.

Aldon went for this reason - never ran anything under BE100 and was always very well attended - but the land was prized by developers and sold off.

 

[billylula]

The ballotting system at BE is also a pain - at least with Unaff if you enter in time you can rely on actually going that weekend - we got balloted out a few times and its a PITA to then find anything with spaces that weekend, not withstanding having to wait for refunds.

 

[showjumpingharry]

When I can spend £80 on a PC/RC membership, get regular training, compete up to BE novice, medium/elem dressage and newcomers SJ (well the equivalents anyway) plus excellent championship opportunities and leagues then you look at the cost of BE then the appeal of going affiliated very quickly goes. Now I'm no longer able to do U18 theres next to no training/teams/league things BE and everything is miles away from me. I doubt I'll have the balls or a horse with the ability to go beyond that any time soon so for me it makes no financial sense to spend £100+ to jump round a course that I can go round unaff...

 

[Lexi_]

I fence judge for BE and I have to say the BE80 classes are usually absolutely fine - of course there is the odd one who can't ride (!) but in my experience its the top pros evening young horses who are the most 'amateurish' - missing out fences etc because they don't walk the course!

And I’d say mostly the absolute opposite! I always come away from FJing an 80 class wanting to put everyone’s stirrups up and send them to practice a proper XC canter around a big field and ride forwards to a fence.

 

[LEC]

I have been thinking about this subject overnight and I think the big issue is that adults want what the U18s get. The U18s effectively have double the value in their membership to adults. They can participate in all the adults stuff and then they get the specialist classes just for them where they are with all their mates who they have met through the training locally as so much organised including camps. Finally this is topped off with a U18 champs which is teams. The buy in from U18s is going to be twice that as so much more motivation to be part of BE with distinctive goals and friends all doing it. I don’t feel any of that towards BE. It’s just a mechanism I don’t feel that engaged with. There is no emotional buy in or loyalty from me with whether I go BE or unaff.

Yet, every year I turn up to RC qualifiers because I want to compete with my mates and love being in a team. The most fun I have ever had was at the RC champs as went up for 4 days with my friends. Eventing is a very social sport for me, my friends and I enter the same events where possible and I hate eventing by myself as it’s an in and out whereas I have spent a tonne of money so prefer it to be social.

 

[GinaGeo]

I have been thinking about this subject overnight and I think the big issue is that adults want what the U18s get. The U18s effectively have double the value in their membership to adults. They can participate in all the adults stuff and then they get the specialist classes just for them where they are with all their mates who they have met through the training locally as so much organised including camps. Finally this is topped off with a U18 champs which is teams. The buy in from U18s is going to be twice that as so much more motivation to be part of BE with distinctive goals and friends all doing it. I don’t feel any of that towards BE. It’s just a mechanism I don’t feel that engaged with. There is no emotional buy in or loyalty from me with whether I go BE or unaff.

Yet, every year I turn up to RC qualifiers because I want to compete with my mates and love being in a team. The most fun I have ever had was at the RC champs as went up for 4 days with my friends. Eventing is a very social sport for me, my friends and I enter the same events where possible and I hate eventing by myself as it’s an in and out whereas I have spent a tonne of money so prefer it to be social.

For me, you've hit the nail on the head. This is exactly what would encourage me to re-join.

It's one of the reasons I enjoy the Side Saddle stuff. I'm in an active area, of like-minded people and it's sociable. We compete against each other. But most importantly we train together and support each other.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Yup Katie had a brilliant time doing the U18s last year. And yes, the training was great too. She qualifed for Area Festinvals but didn't even go as it clashed with some U18s stuff which was far more of a priority for her.

 

[Otherwise]

I have been thinking about this subject overnight and I think the big issue is that adults want what the U18s get. The U18s effectively have double the value in their membership to adults. They can participate in all the adults stuff and then they get the specialist classes just for them where they are with all their mates who they have met through the training locally as so much organised including camps. Finally this is topped off with a U18 champs which is teams. The buy in from U18s is going to be twice that as so much more motivation to be part of BE with distinctive goals and friends all doing it. I don’t feel any of that towards BE. It’s just a mechanism I don’t feel that engaged with. There is no emotional buy in or loyalty from me with whether I go BE or unaff.

Yet, every year I turn up to RC qualifiers because I want to compete with my mates and love being in a team. The most fun I have ever had was at the RC champs as went up for 4 days with my friends. Eventing is a very social sport for me, my friends and I enter the same events where possible and I hate eventing by myself as it’s an in and out whereas I have spent a tonne of money so prefer it to be social.

Something like teamquest would be pretty cool, I think it's been quite successful for BD at encouraging people to take part.

 

[I'm Dun]

I have been thinking about this subject overnight and I think the big issue is that adults want what the U18s get. The U18s effectively have double the value in their membership to adults. They can participate in all the adults stuff and then they get the specialist classes just for them where they are with all their mates who they have met through the training locally as so much organised including camps. Finally this is topped off with a U18 champs which is teams. The buy in from U18s is going to be twice that as so much more motivation to be part of BE with distinctive goals and friends all doing it. I don’t feel any of that towards BE. It’s just a mechanism I don’t feel that engaged with. There is no emotional buy in or loyalty from me with whether I go BE or unaff.

Yet, every year I turn up to RC qualifiers because I want to compete with my mates and love being in a team. The most fun I have ever had was at the RC champs as went up for 4 days with my friends. Eventing is a very social sport for me, my friends and I enter the same events where possible and I hate eventing by myself as it’s an in and out whereas I have spent a tonne of money so prefer it to be social.

yes that would be brilliant! Its the sort of thing that keeps people coming back and feeling engaged and interested

 

[RachelFerd]

I have been thinking about this subject overnight and I think the big issue is that adults want what the U18s get. The U18s effectively have double the value in their membership to adults. They can participate in all the adults stuff and then they get the specialist classes just for them where they are with all their mates who they have met through the training locally as so much organised including camps. Finally this is topped off with a U18 champs which is teams. The buy in from U18s is going to be twice that as so much more motivation to be part of BE with distinctive goals and friends all doing it. I don’t feel any of that towards BE. It’s just a mechanism I don’t feel that engaged with. There is no emotional buy in or loyalty from me with whether I go BE or unaff.

Yet, every year I turn up to RC qualifiers because I want to compete with my mates and love being in a team. The most fun I have ever had was at the RC champs as went up for 4 days with my friends. Eventing is a very social sport for me, my friends and I enter the same events where possible and I hate eventing by myself as it’s an in and out whereas I have spent a tonne of money so prefer it to be social.

I sometimes feel like I really missed out on the U18 stuff - I mean, I was a BE member from the age of 15, and although I did do some novices when I was 17 and 18, I was never quite competitive enough to get involved with the JRN programme at the time. The under 18 programme and 90 and 100 did not exist then. I wish it had! My Pony Club was too snotty and didn't think my horse was good enough for their teams (funnily enough, he was the only horse to jump clear from our PC at the open pony club areas when I was an individual who didn't make the team....) although we did enjoy some riding club senior team stuff when I was 18.

My allegiance shifted to BE really because I found the sycophantic teams element of PC to be rather off putting...

These days though I would love more social opportunities. I know that Helen wants to bring back the training and I think that's a big thing - letting you meet more people in your local area competing at the same level as you, and therefore becoming friendly faces in the lorry park that you can chat to.

 

[LEC]

I sometimes feel like I really missed out on the U18 stuff - I mean, I was a BE member from the age of 15, and although I did do some novices when I was 17 and 18, I was never quite competitive enough to get involved with the JRN programme at the time. The under 18 programme and 90 and 100 did not exist then. I wish it had! My Pony Club was too snotty and didn't think my horse was good enough for their teams (funnily enough, he was the only horse to jump clear from our PC at the open pony club areas when I was an individual who didn't make the team....) although we did enjoy some riding club senior team stuff when I was 18.

My allegiance shifted to BE really because I found the sycophantic teams element of PC to be rather off putting...

These days though I would love more social opportunities. I know that Helen wants to bring back the training and I think that's a big thing - letting you meet more people in your local area competing at the same level as you, and therefore becoming friendly faces in the lorry park that you can chat to.

The adult training was always a bit random and the costs never stacked up. Again the U18s looks a lot better price structured. The big thing I notice though is all the U18s know each other as have training. They know the coaches quite well then see them at events so it’s a lot more homogenised from training to competition.
Get course walks and someone around to fire a question at.
Funnily enough I had one of my BE coach friends ring me up today to fire some ideas at me and get my feedback and we discussed this U18s ‘value’ they get in membership. We laughed about them often hating each other as well but that’s normal isn’t it.
I have just started Team Quest and I am so NOT a TQ type of person but actually it’s not bad and been quite sociable. I am not a pro, this is my hobby and I want to have fun.

 

[RachelFerd]

The adult training was always a bit random and the costs never stacked up. Again the U18s looks a lot better price structured. The big thing I notice though is all the U18s know each other as have training. They know the coaches quite well then see them at events so it’s a lot more homogenised from training to competition.
Get course walks and someone around to fire a question at.
Funnily enough I had one of my BE coach friends ring me up today to fire some ideas at me and get my feedback and we discussed this U18s ‘value’ they get in membership. We laughed about them often hating each other as well but that’s normal isn’t it.
I have just started Team Quest and I am so NOT a TQ type of person but actually it’s not bad and been quite sociable. I am not a pro, this is my hobby and I want to have fun.

When I was in East Anglia the training offering was actually pretty decent. I used to do quite a bit of it through the winter.