So what has British Eventing done wrong?

[Ambers Echo]

Felix went to a youngstock livery place for weaning. I wanted to make sure it was done safely. He was in a stone barn, where he couldn’t see or hear any mares, with 7 other foals. He was there with his pal and as soon as possible the 2 of them went out onto the hill. I only realised when I picked him up that the 6 remaining foals were staying in that small barn all winter! 6 months or more. I felt it was psychologically unfair but sounds like it is also highly physically detrimental to them in ways they might not be able to overcome later on.

 

[LEC]

Felix went to a youngstock livery place for weaning. I wanted to make sure it was done safely. He was in a stone barn, where he couldn’t see or hear any mares, with 7 other foals. He was there with his pal and as soon as possible the 2 of them went out onto the hill. I only realised when I picked him up that the 6 remaining foals were staying in that small barn all winter! 6 months or more. I felt it was psychologically unfair but sounds like it is also highly physically detrimental to them in ways they might not be able to overcome later on.

As ever there is a balance to strike with keeping them alive and developmentally. I think you can do both. @ihatework has the young stock field of dreams she can use which is hilly and large. Hers don’t look too bad for it! I didn’t want a foal unless it could be brought up right. I didn’t have suitable land as too flat and wet in winter. Luckily I have an amazing friend in @TheMule who has perfect land for babies and so could have my lifetime ambition achieved.

 

[Squeak]

I agree that riders are possibly being put off tougher tracks and just choosing to run at places like ALW which isn't helping.

Do you think the price of buying a horse has possibly been detrimental? It's a lot harder to risk running a horse on not perfect ground when it's taken your life savings and a credit card and loan to buy it instead of having a couple to run and being able to afford another if one is injured. (Not at all meaning it to sound like if a horse was cheaper you'd risk injuring it but more you'd be able to take a more realistic approach and not wrap them in cotton wool).

 

[LEC]

I think a lot of people don’t prepare their horses correctly and cross train. They are used to being in an arena and then struggle when conditions are not perfect.

 

[RachelFerd]

Felix went to a youngstock livery place for weaning. I wanted to make sure it was done safely. He was in a stone barn, where he couldn’t see or hear any mares, with 7 other foals. He was there with his pal and as soon as possible the 2 of them went out onto the hill. I only realised when I picked him up that the 6 remaining foals were staying in that small barn all winter! 6 months or more. I felt it was psychologically unfair but sounds like it is also highly physically detrimental to them in ways they might not be able to overcome later on.

Oh I 100% agree with your approach to bringing on youngstock. I'd much prefer to buy something that looks a little bit more raw that has been allowed to be out in the world than something over fed and stabled/barn kept. We've had a real influx of people at my yard who've bought yearlings and are keeping them in our manicured postage stamp fields during the day and stabling overnight. I keep suggesting that they might be better off just chucking them out somewhere as their babies seem to be progressively losing the plot with being kept like competition horses but with no stimulation

Anyway, Aston 4* today, which was designed by mark Philips, was incredibly influential xc. So it's not Aston that's the problem - it's all in the course design.

 

[LEC]

Oh I 100% agree with your approach to bringing on youngstock. I'd much prefer to buy something that looks a little bit more raw that has been allowed to be out in the world than something over fed and stabled/barn kept. We've had a real influx of people at my yard who've bought yearlings and are keeping them in our manicured postage stamp fields during the day and stabling overnight. I keep suggesting that they might be better off just chucking them out somewhere as their babies seem to be progressively losing the plot with being kept like competition horses but with no stimulation

Anyway, Aston 4* today, which was designed by mark Philips, was incredibly influential xc. So it's not Aston that's the problem - it's all in the course design.

Though Mark has done Aston before when it had the covid 4* and it was soft so I think he has learnt.

 

[Accidental Eventer]

I'm interested in how Australian eventing can manage to run with such low numbers when in the UK, events with less than 150 entries per day can't justify the cost of running. A "full" event here can mean up to 300 horses per day, over 2-4 days - I think Aston last year ran about 1400 horses over 5 days or something completely ridiculous. But our events would cancel if they had the kind of numbers you have.

Probably a different model, different cost of entries, our events are run by small committees, generally at existing horse facilities, courses are gradually upgraded as funds become available etc. I think we run purely based on volunteer hours. Plus lots of fundraising through raffles, canteen etc.

So going off course maps it has quite an old fashioned feel to jump design - https://links.crosscountryapp.com/view-event/moora-horse-trials.

that is one of my favorite events, its a great course!


i find it really interesting that there seems to be SO MUCH emphasis on good ground conditions in the UK. It's not as much a thing here. There are times where I wont run, or train, and some facilities I am careful with, but my horses are conditions appropriately and I ride to the conditions. Event committees here work hard to prepare the ground to ensure it can be run on, but it's always going to be hard.

 

[Accidental Eventer]

I can see the appeal but I would not want my horse hanging round all day for a voulunteer to finish many hours after or before my own competition. I think it would be better to be asked to volunteer on a different day than to provide a helper on the actual day. Volunteers at BE events could be given a discount code for their next event or something.

Here we event over 2 days, so our duties fit around our ride times. we are set up to be there the whole weekend and usually camp overnight. We can pay a fee to have a helper supplied, we can do self help, or supply a helper. we can also generally select what job to do, within reason - I always supply a SJ helper, as hubby is a qualified SJ judge. Often he gets roped into commentating as he has that nice posh (to us!) English accent. We can also volunteer before or after the event doing course prep or dismantle.

I suppose for us it's how it has always been done and being able to pay for a helper is new, but expensive so many still DIY it.

 

[Michen]

Can you actually “train” a horse to run on hard ground though. I’m not sure I buy the whole idea of working them (at more than a walk) on hard ground to strengthen them to run them on hard ground, just sounds like more wear and tear. It makes sense to me to do lots of work over varied surfaces but I can’t see how cantering a horse on hard ground at home is going to strengthen it to be able to do so comfortably at an event. Surely you are just adding to the concussion.

Do pro event riders do this?

 

[ihatework]

I agree that riders are possibly being put off tougher tracks and just choosing to run at places like ALW which isn't helping.

Do you think the price of buying a horse has possibly been detrimental? It's a lot harder to risk running a horse on not perfect ground when it's taken your life savings and a credit card and loan to buy it instead of having a couple to run and being able to afford another if one is injured. (Not at all meaning it to sound like if a horse was cheaper you'd risk injuring it but more you'd be able to take a more realistic approach and not wrap them in cotton wool).

I actually don’t think riders are being put off tougher tracks at all.

I think it’s vital to have some variation in track difficulty within the level - but I come at it from an educating a horse pov for progress.

Horses are built differently and some go better on different ground naturally. They also have strengths and weaknesses with different types of courses.

Aston is a classic example of an event we are exceptionally lucky to have. It’s been developed over a number of years by someone who has been there and done it and know what riders want. You can now do your Dr & Sj on a super surface and you can be assured that Aston will prepare the xc ground as much as possible.

That is why the pros flock there.

Yes it’s usually on the softer side for the level but it means those green at the level can get a nice step up or those established can have a quiet fittening/training run between their season targets.

I do think some eventers are ultra picky and precious to the detriment of their horses education!

But for example my young horse just did Howick between a 2*L and his first intermediate. The course was teeny and the ground on the hard side. But we just wanted to give him an easy trip in between big questions. We ran him uncompetitive around the xc (forfeiting a top 6 finish) to take into consideration the firmness underfoot and the bigger picture for the horse.
This is what most pros do!

 

[millitiger]

Can you actually “train” a horse to run on hard ground though. I’m not sure I buy the whole idea of working them (at more than a walk) on hard ground to strengthen them to run them on hard ground, just sounds like more wear and tear. It makes sense to me to do lots of work over varied surfaces but I can’t see how cantering a horse on hard ground at home is going to strengthen it to be able to do so comfortably at an event. Surely you are just adding to the concussion.

Do pro event riders do this?

This is the bit I struggle with.
I understand training and conditioning to softer or slippy ground but not for hard ground.

I currently have a horse who is very sensitive to hard ground- not just his feet but he seems to feel it through his body and jar up- his natural balance isn't great and he isn't very light footed, as well as being a 17hh tank shape.
I don't see how repeatedly working on hard ground will help him as it's a genuine, physical, difficulty he has.
I am resigned to staying on a surface with him in summer and we will event and team chase in the wetter months.

Oddly, his mother hated soft ground and LOVED to run on the hard - horses for courses!

 

[spacefaer]

Can you actually “train” a horse to run on hard ground though. I’m not sure I buy the whole idea of working them (at more than a walk) on hard ground to strengthen them to run them on hard ground, just sounds like more wear and tear. It makes sense to me to do lots of work over varied surfaces but I can’t see how cantering a horse on hard ground at home is going to strengthen it to be able to do so comfortably at an event. Surely you are just adding to the concussion.

Do pro event riders do this?

I would say it's not so much training on hard ground as acclimatising the horse to it. By the sound of it, no one would event in Australia if they waited for what we would call "good" ground. I would suggest however that the type of horse would also play a factor.

An Australian TB is more likely to skip across hard ground than some northern hemisphere sports horses. Obviously at higher levels, there's more of a lighter type required, regardless of breeding, but certainly at the lower levels there'll be chunkier sorts.

As @millitiger says some horses love soft ground, others prefer to bounce off the top.
It's as much about knowing your horse as anything.

 

[MagicMelon]

I can see the appeal but I would not want my horse hanging round all day for a voulunteer to finish many hours after or before my own competition. I think it would be better to be asked to volunteer on a different day than to provide a helper on the actual day. Volunteers at BE events could be given a discount code for their next event or something.

Yeah I agree, my mum is my support as she's my babysitter and watches my kids while I compete. No way I could compete without her and I dont know anyone else who could help at these things that arent already competing themselves. Its not an ideal situation to HAVE to provide a helper, especially when we have both fence judged at lots of events whenever Im not competing. I wonder how many other competitive sports demand every competitor provide a helper? I absolutely know how important volunteers are but I think a lot of it is how well they are looked after. I know of lots of BE events where the volunteers get given amazing food and are thanked all the time etc. and its nice to judge there.

Floors gone now so thats yet another Scottish event gone. Im so relieved I dont event at the moment (green XC horse who I can never seem to get beyond that due to lack of XC outings!) as itd be absolutely pointless. We've always been looked down on by BE, we've never had the opportunity or value for membership fee that elsewhere have. We've never had the winter arena eventing etc. for instance - I think my closest one was about 4 hours away. BE have never gone out and encouraged landowners to build XC courses and run events, they just sat back and let venues do it off their own back which they just arent doing anymore. I really hope the CEO turns it around. Such a shame as Ive always loved BE and it never seemed to have problems like it does right now.

I actually wish we were like some other countries where you pay one fee and join everything (BS, BE and BD rolled into one). Will never happen though.

 

[Squeak]

I actually think there's the potential for technology to be used instead of all the fence judge volunteers. A lot of courses these days are being filmed by equireel etc. with at least one camera on every fence. You could have that live streamed back to a control box and either a person to watch one person go round or sections of the course and any issues they radio out to someone on the course in a 4 x 4, with people in 4 x 4's positioned ot be able to quickly and easily reach all of the course. If there is a bogey fence or combination then you could choose to put someone there.

It's definitely not a completely fool proof plan at the moment and would need some work but I don't think it would be unfeasible and I also think it would hugely hugely reduce the number of volunteers needed for the sport and the costs of feeding them etc.

Expanding on that point, BE have done nothing to embrace technology and how it can help and improve the sport and reduce costs. Am I right in thinking that eventing scores was an independent website that was so successful that BE adopted it? But surely BE itself should have been looking at how they could do live scoring and digital dressage sheets etc.

 

[LEC]

I actually think there's the potential for technology to be used instead of all the fence judge volunteers. A lot of courses these days are being filmed by equireel etc. with at least one camera on every fence. You could have that live streamed back to a control box and either a person to watch one person go round or sections of the course and any issues they radio out to someone on the course in a 4 x 4, with people in 4 x 4's positioned ot be able to quickly and easily reach all of the course. If there is a bogey fence or combination then you could choose to put someone there.

It's definitely not a completely fool proof plan at the moment and would need some work but I don't think it would be unfeasible and I also think it would hugely hugely reduce the number of volunteers needed for the sport and the costs of feeding them etc.

Expanding on that point, BE have done nothing to embrace technology and how it can help and improve the sport and reduce costs. Am I right in thinking that eventing scores was an independent website that was so successful that BE adopted it? But surely BE itself should have been looking at how they could do live scoring and digital dressage sheets etc.

They already have them but Dr judges need to be trained and wifi is often the biggest issue.

 

[Squeak]

They already have them but Dr judges need to be trained and wifi is often the biggest issue.

Sorry, I didn't phrase it very clearly, I meant that the online dressage sheets and live scoring are what BE should have been creating and advocating rather than an independent party with BE just jumping on the bandwagon.

 

[LEC]

I think you can train muscles and ligaments for hard ground and your horse to handle it. Some horses won’t like it but that’s then the riders decision whether they run competitively, don’t run or go slowly. Training doesn’t mean hammering them on it but like trotting on roads it can be done without detriment.

As I replied in a thread yonks ago about hard ground there are many variables. So make decisions based on those variables that suit you and your horses

 

[Birker2020]

Anyway, Aston 4* today, which was designed by mark Philips, was incredibly influential xc. So it's not Aston that's the problem - it's all in the course design.

I will caveat this by saying I don't know a huge amount about eventing, I used to do very low level years ago and did Milton Keynes three day long format and Offchurch a few times at grass root level so yesterday fence judging a 4* was a real eyeopener. I couldn't believe how many refusals and falls there were at this 4* event. The vet was sent to attend to horses on a couple of occasions, luckily horses and riders were okay but when we looked at the live feed it was dotted with refusals mostly at the combinations and the odd retirement. Two horses got loose on course but were rounded up safely.

We were judging one of the easiest fences on the course and had no run outs or refusals (or falls), thank the Lord.
It was my first ever 4* fence judging and the organisers really looked after us well in terms of explanations at the stewards post, over the radio and with food bags and hot drinks and bacon rolls and loads of friendliness. Some of the countries top riders walked past our car and smiled and waved at us, it was a lovely atmosphere and made it all the more special.

Can't wait to fence judge again. Great day and lovely people.

 

[LEC]

Sorry, I didn't phrase it very clearly, I meant that the online dressage sheets and live scoring are what BE should have been creating and advocating rather than an independent party with BE just jumping on the bandwagon.

BE rightfully decided to do what they are supposed to do which is govern the sport rather than carrying on wasting money on IT.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I absolutely know how important volunteers are but I think a lot of it is how well they are looked after. I know of lots of BE events where the volunteers get given amazing food and are thanked all the time etc. and its nice to judge there.

Well, yes, but even FJing at my local events means 12+ hours out of the house. I have to be up at sparrow fart to see to my own 3 horses, get the dog walked and be there for the briefing. Then late back to see to home animals again. It's a big commitment and a very long day.

 

[Michen]

Exactly there are so many variables. But I don’t think you see many pros risking their good horses, and I don’t think amateurs should be expected to do the same. I’d hazard a guess that there are very few horses (particularly at the lower levels) that come away from running on hard ground unscathed, even if it’s not immediately obvious.

I just don’t think you can particularly train for the damage done from running on hard ground. I spent hours on the roads with Boggle at a walk and at times steady uphill trot but never would I think that it meant he would be ok, or that it wouldn’t be detrimental to his long or even short term soundness, to gallop and jump on hard ground.

Colorado is seemingly littered with horses with navicular, I am sure there’s a reason for that.

 

[Michen]

I would say it's not so much training on hard ground as acclimatising the horse to it. By the sound of it, no one would event in Australia if they waited for what we would call "good" ground. I would suggest however that the type of horse would also play a factor.

An Australian TB is more likely to skip across hard ground than some northern hemisphere sports horses. Obviously at higher levels, there's more of a lighter type required, regardless of breeding, but certainly at the lower levels there'll be chunkier sorts.

As @millitiger says some horses love soft ground, others prefer to bounce off the top.
It's as much about knowing your horse as anything.

It would be really interesting to know how long those Australian horses last though compared to other areas of the world. The vets here tell me they see way more navicular than other areas of the USA.

 

[Birker2020]

Well, yes, but even FJing at my local events means 12+ hours out of the house. I have to be up at sparrow fart to see to my own 3 horses, get the dog walked and be there for the briefing. Then late back to see to home animals again. It's a big commitment and a very long day.

It is a big commitment, we do half days which are better. Yesterday we arrived for briefing at 10am - start at 11am, and ran over finishing around 4.40pm. Before we did 9am to 1pm

 

[Red-1]

I actually think there's the potential for technology to be used instead of all the fence judge volunteers. A lot of courses these days are being filmed by equireel etc. with at least one camera on every fence. You could have that live streamed back to a control box and either a person to watch one person go round or sections of the course and any issues they radio out to someone on the course in a 4 x 4, with people in 4 x 4's positioned ot be able to quickly and easily reach all of the course. If there is a bogey fence or combination then you could choose to put someone there.

It's definitely not a completely fool proof plan at the moment and would need some work but I don't think it would be unfeasible and I also think it would hugely hugely reduce the number of volunteers needed for the sport and the costs of feeding them etc.

Expanding on that point, BE have done nothing to embrace technology and how it can help and improve the sport and reduce costs. Am I right in thinking that eventing scores was an independent website that was so successful that BE adopted it? But surely BE itself should have been looking at how they could do live scoring and digital dressage sheets etc.

I have been pulled up by a fence judge with a flag a good few times, that couldn't be done remotely. I also have had the fence repaired inbetween horses, or not, in one case, where we got a run out as a previous competitor had knocked the flag and the fence judges were having a picnic lunch. The fence judges have stomped divots or moved brush.

A friend had a helpful fence judge stem a small arterial bleed. Or, I think they held the horse whilst she used her stock. I think it is a good idea to have someone there for remedial 1st aid.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I have been pulled up by a fence judge with a flag a good few times, that couldn't be done remotely.

Indeed, you've got to have every fence manned for safety reasons.

I've been the FJ flagging down competitors because of horse and/or rider falls at the next fence(s) to mine.

Also FJs are required to ensure that the course is clear of kamikaze course walkers who are often complete with off lead dogs and baby buggies . We blow our whistles to alert everyone that a horse is approaching, but I still have had to resort to bellowing 'CLEAR THE COURSE' at the oblivious far too often.

 

[ihatework]

I have been pulled up by a fence judge with a flag a good few times, that couldn't be done remotely. I also have had the fence repaired inbetween horses, or not, in one case, where we got a run out as a previous competitor had knocked the flag and the fence judges were having a picnic lunch. The fence judges have stomped divots or moved brush.

A friend had a helpful fence judge stem a small arterial bleed. Or, I think they held the horse whilst she used her stock. I think it is a good idea to have someone there for remedial 1st aid.

Completely- fence judges are more than ticking a box.
They keep the course clear of spectators, replace knocked flags, report fence damage, rake landings/take offs, stop/start horses on course at short notice, deal with fallers and accidents

 

[spacefaer]

It would be really interesting to know how long those Australian horses last though compared to other areas of the world. The vets here tell me they see way more navicular than other areas of the USA.

I may be completely misinformed but I'm envisaging that most of lower level Australian events horses would be TBs .... so would also be countering off the track issues as well? It'd be interesting to know though. (If any one has done the research)

 

[Squeak]

Sorry, I think I've risked de-railing the whole thread! My point that I was trying to get across, badly, was that possibly there are ways for technology to help progress the sport and keep costs down but we haven't seen anything done in that direction - the only time BE have been involved in technology was the website debacle, which is enough to put anyone off BE ever doing anything with tech again!! And that the improvements that we have seen, like eventing scores have been done independently.

I probably could have gone for a less contentious example than fence judging

On a different note, maybe some research or more publicising from BE on working horses on different ground and the impacts on it would help encourage people to run on a wider variety of ground. Or the ground data that has been produced for some of the UA's are really helpful and interesting, maybe they could be mandatory for every event and then riders would know what the ground was before they left and also, it would encourage events that really don't do anything to their ground to make sure that they do.

Potentially if you coupled the ground results with the research you could show riders that the ground is within the acceptable range to not be damaging to the horses. It could help prevent the lack of entries from the people who don't enter because of the hard ground as they'd know what were the acceptable ranges and hopefully it would show that most if not all the events are ok and they should still be able to run.

 

[Caol Ila]

Colorado is seemingly littered with horses with navicular, I am sure there’s a reason for that.

I found that to be true as well. But it may be multi-factorial, as these problems often are. CO is hoaching with QH-types who have tiny feet, short, upright pasterns, and are post-legged as, well, a post. Not slagging of QHs, but for every well-bred one with good conformation, there are a million more I would not touch with a bargepole. Many have to carry heavy riders as well.

 

[Michen]

I found that to be true as well. But it may be multi-factorial, as these problems often are. CO is hoaching with QH-types who have tiny feet, short, upright pasterns, and are post-legged as, well, a post. Not slagging of QHs, but for every well-bred one with good conformation, there are a million more I would not touch with a bargepole. Many have to carry heavy riders as well.

Yep I had that convo with the vet but they did say they saw it across all horses.