So what has British Eventing done wrong?

[clinkerbuilt]

spreadsheets and internet scouring are some of my favourite sad hobbies

but i do think we need perspective in amongst all the cancellations stuff - there's a degree of recency bias and social media amplification with people behaving like a stately home event has never cancelled before - when history says they've been cancelling constantly since the early 80s. Doesn't change the fact that our sport seems to be shifting into one which is losing it's unique venues and being based more around permanent equestrian centres of course. Also kind of points towards this fundamentally being a money-losing operation for nearly all venues, despite the high cost of participation - how does the sport structure itself correctly to support the types of venues which we really need??

how far back are you going? I found this video when I looked into how Burghley started. it would be interesting if someone looked into the culture and economics of these things in the history of the estates particularly.

 

[dominobrown]

I'm up to 241 in total now! Just need to check some aren't duplicates...

are you missing Armathwaite Hall? it ran an international. It only ran for 2/3 years. They made it a big countryside festival too. Was so excited to watch it as a child, I was obsessed.
So you have updated list.

Have you got Turnberry? I did my first 90 there.

 

[YourValentine]

Some events have been lost because the land owner changed direction e.g. Belton & Lyme Park (National Trust owned).

 

[SteveGG]

Ashurst - West Sussex
Firle

 

[Orangehorse]

how far back are you going? I found this video when I looked into how Burghley started. it would be interesting if someone looked into the culture and economics of these things in the history of the estates particularly.

Nice film. The breeches were very well cut, no tight bottoms there. And although it is a bit before my time my sisters used to have one of those cream macs.

In those days practically everyone was an amateur. For years the one day eventing series was sponsored by Midland Bank and it was a big shock to the system when they announced they were pulling out. It was about the same time when the "professional" riders started to appear. Years ago you would have a good horse and get up as high as it would take you and then, the girls, would retire and get married.
The men would have to go off and get a good career. Of course there were always the ones who were in effect professional horse people, breeding, buying and selling, producing and instructing but few if any thought they could just make a living by riding event horses for most of their active life.

 

[ycbm]

Nice film. The breeches were very well cut, no tight bottoms there. And although it is a bit before my time my sisters used to have one of those cream macs.

In those days practically everyone was an amateur. For years the one day eventing series was sponsored by Midland Bank and it was a big shock to the system when they announced they were pulling out. It was about the same time when the "professional" riders started to appear. Years ago you would have a good horse and get up as high as it would take you and then, the girls, would retire and get married.
The men would have to go off and get a good career. Of course there were always the ones who were in effect professional horse people, breeding, buying and selling, producing and instructing but few if any thought they could just make a living by riding event horses for most of their active life.

I think you've spotted something there. It was pretty well known that the one off events, except for the 2 or 3 huge ones, could not make money and had often to be run at a loss. Really wealthy landowners were prepared to accept that when the vast majority of people were competing only as a hobby and it was costing them to be there too.

The change to professionals riding at BE 80/90/100 , either being paid to do so or doing it to put value on a horse they were going to sell, changed that whole dynamic. What incentive is there now for a landowner to finance an event for a heap of pros to profit from?
.

 

[Wishfilly]

I think you've spotted something there. It was pretty well known that the one off events, except for the 2 or 3 huge ones, could not make money and had often to be run at a loss. Really wealthy landowners were prepared to accept that when the vast majority of people were competing only as a hobby and it was costing them to be there too.

The change to professionals riding at BE 80/90/100 , either being paid to do so or doing it to put value on a horse they were going to sell, change that whole dynamic. What incentive is there now for a landowner to finance an event for a heap of pros to profit from?
.

Realistically as well, running BE must cost a lot more than most horse events. A few of the estates local to me run fun rides, and one does a proper endurance ride on their parkland- I am not convinced they make much, if any money from it, and it's still great for the local horsey community, but probably not as big a commitment as BE.

There's one estate that does run BE and has always historically run hunter trials etc, I would guess it's due to personal interest in the sport rather than making any money from it!

Down here I think there is a bit of a vicious cycle- there isn't that much BE available, so buying a membership is expensive for what you can do in a season as a one horse owner, so then it doesn't make sense for venues to necessarily put on BE events vs other things even if they want to offer an equestrian event.

 

[LEC]

There has been huge historical change on land use in last 40 years.
Agriculture doesn’t make money now so big estates need to crank all the revenue streams they can and festivals etc are much more lucrative. You only need to look at Longleat which is a rich estate but the cranking goes on with what they have needed to do to keep it afloat - centre parcs, light festival, music festivals, open house along with the safari park. They also own cheddar gorge which is cranked as well to make money. Eventing they wanted £30k for the weekend hire so not affordable.

Charlton Park went down festival route and has WOMAD. The National Trust didn’t see the value in eventing. Highclere the same. The costs for owning these big estates keep going up and then there is taxation!

We are at a huge disadvantage to Europe and Ireland due to taxation. They all have equestrian linked to agriculture which opens a lot more doors on friendly taxation policies and access to funding. If you take farming - if someone dies then the taxation is minimal for death duties compared to anything else as always had friendlier taxation. Hand fields or sell them to kids/farmers and again no capital gains if retained for 8 years as long as rated agricultural land. No business rates on farm buildings and cattle sheds. Whereas have an equestrian centre then indoors and stables are all subject to business rates. Add in very tight rules around EU subsidy’s being based on environmental, planning rules and it all becomes limiting factors.

Also you need to factor in urban sprawl. Land has rocketed in value. But the value doesn’t justify its price in making money unless it goes for housing. Sites are becoming smaller and getting tighter. If an event like Bicton which has the infrastructure in place cannot make money out of 4 days on national one days then there is a real issue. I suspect the money for profit at Bicton comes from stabling and the raised fees for running internationals. A 2*S is around £160 Vs £100 for a Novice one day. Though you need FEI officials.

 

[Wishfilly]

There has been huge historical change on land use in last 40 years.
Agriculture doesn’t make money now so big estates need to crank all the revenue streams they can and festivals etc are much more lucrative. You only need to look at Longleat which is a rich estate but the cranking goes on with what they have needed to do to keep it afloat - centre parcs, light festival, music festivals, open house along with the safari park. They also own cheddar gorge which is cranked as well to make money. Eventing they wanted £30k for the weekend hire so not affordable.

Charlton Park went down festival route and has WOMAD. The National Trust didn’t see the value in eventing. Highclere the same. The costs for owning these big estates keep going up and then there is taxation!

We are at a huge disadvantage to Europe and Ireland due to taxation. They all have equestrian linked to agriculture which opens a lot more doors on friendly taxation policies and access to funding. If you take farming - if someone dies then the taxation is minimal for death duties compared to anything else as always had friendlier taxation. Hand fields or sell them to kids/farmers and again no capital gains if retained for 8 years as long as rated agricultural land. No business rates on farm buildings and cattle sheds. Whereas have an equestrian centre then indoors and stables are all subject to business rates. Add in very tight rules around EU subsidy’s being based on environmental, planning rules and it all becomes limiting factors.

Also you need to factor in urban sprawl. Land has rocketed in value. But the value doesn’t justify its price in making money unless it goes for housing. Sites are becoming smaller and getting tighter. If an event like Bicton which has the infrastructure in place cannot make money out of 4 days on national one days then there is a real issue. I suspect the money for profit at Bicton comes from stabling and the raised fees for running internationals. A 2*S is around £160 Vs £100 for a Novice one day. Though you need FEI officials.

I guess for Bicton there is arguably a "soft" benefit in terms of the chance to market themselves to prospective students etc? But yes, if Bicton are not really making any money out of running eventing, then that is a concern.

And obviously Bicton does a lot of showjumping etc- I wonder how the costs vs revenue match up?

 

[LEC]

The arena and college are separate entities. The house where the college is used to be part of the estate but is no longer.

I was told they make more in a day with showjumping than a weekend of eventing. The stabling is also half the price for the sjers weekends. Let’s be honest for Sjing you need what 20 people for the day? Vs eventing where it would be 100.

 

[humblepie]

Ageing myself - I have a Midland Bank winners rug from Cirencester Park.....beautiful dark blue wool with leather strap and the bank logo on it.

Very interesting thread to which I don't have anything intelligent to add other than it is a shame the stately home events are going but for the financial reasons above understandable.

 

[Wishfilly]

The arena and college are separate entities. The house where the college is used to be part of the estate but is no longer.

I was told they make more in a day with showjumping than a weekend of eventing. The stabling is also half the price for the sjers weekends. Let’s be honest for Sjing you need what 20 people for the day? Vs eventing where it would be 100.

Ah, I didn't realise they were completely separate entities! Who does the stabling belong to then?

I've not been to Bicton for showjumping often, but when I have been, it always seems very well attended. I know there eventing is popular too, but I'd imagine they get more entries for showjumping per day? I can well imagine the showjumping is way more profitable, unfortunately.

 

[teapot]

There has been huge historical change on land use in last 40 years.
Agriculture doesn’t make money now so big estates need to crank all the revenue streams they can and festivals etc are much more lucrative. You only need to look at Longleat which is a rich estate but the cranking goes on with what they have needed to do to keep it afloat - centre parcs, light festival, music festivals, open house along with the safari park. They also own cheddar gorge which is cranked as well to make money. Eventing they wanted £30k for the weekend hire so not affordable.

Charlton Park went down festival route and has WOMAD. The National Trust didn’t see the value in eventing. Highclere the same. The costs for owning these big estates keep going up and then there is taxation!

We are at a huge disadvantage to Europe and Ireland due to taxation. They all have equestrian linked to agriculture which opens a lot more doors on friendly taxation policies and access to funding. If you take farming - if someone dies then the taxation is minimal for death duties compared to anything else as always had friendlier taxation. Hand fields or sell them to kids/farmers and again no capital gains if retained for 8 years as long as rated agricultural land. No business rates on farm buildings and cattle sheds. Whereas have an equestrian centre then indoors and stables are all subject to business rates. Add in very tight rules around EU subsidy’s being based on environmental, planning rules and it all becomes limiting factors.

Also you need to factor in urban sprawl. Land has rocketed in value. But the value doesn’t justify its price in making money unless it goes for housing. Sites are becoming smaller and getting tighter. If an event like Bicton which has the infrastructure in place cannot make money out of 4 days on national one days then there is a real issue. I suspect the money for profit at Bicton comes from stabling and the raised fees for running internationals. A 2*S is around £160 Vs £100 for a Novice one day. Though you need FEI officials.

The other thing you have with country houses and estates is the generational shift. The next generation who inherit realising what else can be done to make more money to fund the estate, or what needs to be done to ensure the house roof doesn't leak etc.

 

[teapot]

Not just BE with event location issues

UPDATED: Le Grand Complet at Haras du Pin Cancelled for 2024 Following Financial Dispute - Eventing Nation - Three-Day Eventing News, Results, Videos, and Commentary

Quotes within this news story have been translated from the original French. The article was updated on January 11 to include a response from Haras du Pin, at the bottom of the page, also translated from

eventingnation.com

 

[LEC]

Having been there last year it looks every inch millions of pounds. I guess it does need to pay for itself - Haras du Pin is a funny place and the historic side is amazing but they also have some real crap their like the beautiful old indoor hosts a decrepit run down circus kind of thing and there seems to be no direction with the horse stuff. It’s kind of tatty history but not future facing. I guess this was their attempt to be future facing. I could find nothing about the amazing galloping by the side of a road with racing jumps anywhere nor about the xc schooling fences dotted about. The website is sparse and it feels disjointed in a clearly exceptionally horse orientated area. There was a trotter track every 2 miles we went. You would think Le Grand Compet would be welcomed.

 

[Bernster]

Sad news about the loss, I assume permanently, of another great eventing venue. No idea why, maybe it’s up for sale or development (yawn) but no eventing and no hire in 2024, which sounds pretty bleak from an equestrian standpoint.

Horseheath
British Eventing and Unaffiliated Eventing

Unfortunately, the decision has been made to not run either of these events at Horseheath in 2024. We appreciate that this will be a disappointment to many of you, we will miss seeing you all and sharing your eventing journeys with you.

From the entire team at Horseheath, we would like to wish you all lots of luck and success in your eventing in 2024.

 

[shortstuff99]

Sad news about the loss, I assume permanently, of another great eventing venue. No idea why, maybe it’s up for sale or development (yawn) but no eventing and no hire in 2024, which sounds pretty bleak from an equestrian standpoint.

Horseheath
British Eventing and Unaffiliated Eventing

Unfortunately, the decision has been made to not run either of these events at Horseheath in 2024. We appreciate that this will be a disappointment to many of you, we will miss seeing you all and sharing your eventing journeys with you.

From the entire team at Horseheath, we would like to wish you all lots of luck and success in your eventing in 2024.

From what I remember I think it's an issue with who they had organising it before, they were also in talks with LandS eventing to run it but it didn't really go anywhere.

 

[DressageCob]

Somerford has cancelled its event for this year, blaming the lack of cost effective abandonment options. Such a shame.

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=pfbid0Hwk6qFNyQsyywobYMgN6Xbt5GCnFs7LqPeKke61agkNTiUYSsq8VQU2f3nsEX7Kyl&id=100064746246616

 

[ihatework]

There is definitely a real shift in the sport happening. Might be off mark, but I sort of have the gut feel we have almost been the victim of our own success, the sport has evolved and grown exponentially and it’s almost like we have hit a critical mass alongside other external factors (weather change / cost of living). I’m not quite sure what I’m trying to say and might be talking out of my bum.
I think ultimately we will be ok for national level but internationals are dropping but access to Ireland/france/belgium is more difficult post brexit.

 

[LEC]

I just find it extraordinary that a location such as Somerford which has 70% of the infrastructure already doesn’t think it can stack up its costs at 2/3* level with other subsidiary national levels. I think it’s a worrying state for other Internationals and parkland events. The Cotswold Cup has put out an amazing schedule this year of events and I think the national 80-100 level is going to be hit hard again this year in the SW.

 

[Honey08]

Do you think Somerford has a different cancellation policy because its ground is so important due to their huge haylage business? I find it strange. They have the farm ride and xx training sites going all year (yes I know with a lot of surface help). I can’t help thinking that Kelsall, just up the road seems to get bigger and bigger, whereas the event at Somerford never seemed to try very hard (shopping wasn’t great either). I only ever went to it once, it just didn’t feel like an international. I’m sorry to see it go, don’t get me wrong, but it never felt like it quite made it, despite this.

 

[ycbm]

Do you think Somerford has a different cancellation policy because its ground is so important due to their huge haylage business? I find it strange. They have the farm ride and xx training sites going all year (yes I know with a lot of surface help). I can’t help thinking that Kelsall, just up the road seems to get bigger and bigger, whereas the event at Somerford never seemed to try very hard (shopping wasn’t great either). I only ever went to it once, it just didn’t feel like an international. I’m sorry to see it go, don’t get me wrong, but it never felt like it quite made it, despite this.

They don't make much haylage from the cross country course, the haylage is done on a ginormous field elsewhere on the site where they spread the muck from the 200+ stables. They made some haylage on the xc in 2023 when there were no BE events, but I don't remember them doing it at all in 2022.
.

 

[ycbm]

I'm also struggling to see why, with a dedicated yard of, I think, 80 overnight rental boxes, a permanent cross country course used only for affiliated competition, well draining dressage areas on grass over sand, show jumping on dedicated arenas, permanent tracks for lorry parking, pods for rent for sleeping over, hook-up charges for overnight lorries, Somerford can't make money out of an international event, but it suggests the insurance is simply astronomical.

If they can't do it, with an Olympic eventer co-owner and a number of other Pro eventers running businesses on site, then it does make you question what the future of the sport is.
.

 

[RachelFerd]

There is definitely a real shift in the sport happening. Might be off mark, but I sort of have the gut feel we have almost been the victim of our own success, the sport has evolved and grown exponentially and it’s almost like we have hit a critical mass alongside other external factors (weather change / cost of living). I’m not quite sure what I’m trying to say and might be talking out of my bum.
I think ultimately we will be ok for national level but internationals are dropping but access to Ireland/france/belgium is more difficult post brexit.

And of course the other thing is that preparing the land for eventing and running events is not likely to work well hand in hand with the burgeoning new environmental markets that farmers and land owners will be considering as options to improve the financial viability of their land (and also improve carbon capture, biodiversity, water quality etc etc - all probably more important than eventing)

Back to Somerford - probably important to note that Somerford have acknowledged that the BE abandonment fund has been reinstated, which is a positive, but that the initial amount within that fund is currently too low. If we have a good year, without the mass weather cancellations of last year, that abandonment pot will grow and I'd hope that would allay some of the concerns of organisers like Somerford. However, I'm not so sure that we're ever going to be able to rely on consistent weather given that climate change is increasing extreme weather around the world exponentially.

 

[LEC]

Fair enough if Somerford has not got the appetite to run a big event but I do think organisers need to think outside the box and ask their clients what they would be happy with.
For some events and I am talking special ones I would be happy to subsidise them more. If events make an effort and have to cancel then as long as I am aware and alerted then I am happy to give up to 50% of my entry up. I appreciate I need to subsidise the sport in some way to keep it going. I scratch along with money but I love the sport and this is my way of helping make it sustainable. I would not be doing the same for Aston or West Wilts!

 

[DeliaRides]

Really interested in this discussion but relatively uninformed....My perspective from living close to Somerford and using their facilities frequently, as well as trying to run RC camps there....it's a business on every level. They have their own camps and they hire out to camps every weekend of the year. They rent out all facilities constantly....I just think running a big BE event...it sounds like a difficult and complicated and risky way to (try and) make money. When they can do it easily and with relatively low risk, by just renting out their facilities in the way they do.

I have no idea of the ins and outs of running a big BE, but I just think that, from what I can see anyway, money gushes into Somerford every single week whether they run a BE or not, so why bother? For sure they have the facilities, and for sure they would gain some additional prestige, but....do they need to?

 

[DeliaRides]

I'm sorry I worry that sounds critical of Somerford, I don't mean it to at all. It's a fabulous venue that we use several times a month.

Interestingly Kelsall just up the road seem to have a more 'gung ho' approach to planning events generally (as in fill the calendar and deal with any issues if they arise), but I would expect they make less revenue from facilities hire than Somerford, but do rely on running their own competitions every week. I'm guessing here!

 

[ycbm]

I'm sorry I worry that sounds critical of Somerford, I don't mean it to at all. It's a fabulous venue that we use several times a month.

Interestingly Kelsall just up the road seem to have a more 'gung ho' approach to planning events generally (as in fill the calendar and deal with any issues if they arise), but I would expect they make less revenue from facilities hire than Somerford, but do rely on running their own competitions every week. I'm guessing here!

It's an interesting point. BE aside, Somerford don't run any competitions, or even camps of their own, I don't think, they just hire out the venue to other organisations.

And yes it's a huge enterprise, 240+ permanent livery spaces to start with, and they have no need to risk making a loss running a BE event.
.

 

[teapot]

It's an interesting point. BE aside, Somerford don't run any competitions, or even camps of their own, I don't think, they just hire out the venue to other organisations.

And yes it's a huge enterprise, 240+ permanent livery spaces to start with, and they have no need to risk making a loss running a BE event.
.

Hiring out to others sounds ideal - no hassle or time involvement at end of the day.

As a side point to the future of BE, they’ve announced today that there will be a women’s Lions rugby team, funded in part by a certain David Howden.

Now I know you can have too much money so what’s a few million into a new sport etc. However, I can’t help but wonder whether the very person who’s propping up BE is looking at alternative investments…

 

[RachelFerd]

Hiring out to others sounds ideal - no hassle or time involvement at end of the day.

As a side point to the future of BE, they’ve announced today that there will be a women’s Lions rugby team, funded in part by a certain David Howden.

Now I know you can have too much money so what’s a few million into a new sport etc. However, I can’t help but wonder whether the very person who’s propping up BE is looking at alternative investments…

slightly amusic/ironic that the money pouring into BE from David Howden comes from his insurance empire, and yet it is the cost of insurance (not with Howden specifically) that is creating so many issues with the calendar. Suggests to me that the insurers are winning.

Now I've not the first clue about rugby, but the new BE CEO is ex CEO of Rugby Football Union for Women in England - so perhaps there's actually some link there in the join-up between Howden/BE and Rugby. I dunno - just interesting.

Also - interesting Eventing Podcast with Rosie Williams the other week. She's big on improving accessibility into the sport at grassroots level - so will await with interest if its possible to operationalise that somehow.