So what has British Eventing done wrong?

[ihatework]

Cornbury seem to be going exceptionally upmarket, or at least trying to appeal to very, very wealthy clientele. I know that's not new or exclusive to their event it's just really strongly coming through on their FB ads. Everything seems to be luxury this or that.

It really is.
And I appreciate it might seem (is!) elitist but coming from an owner perspective it is much appreciated. It’s a massively expensive game and for the most part of the year you are lucky to get a free cup of instant coffee.

Last year the owner facilities at Cornbury were superb, I had the most lovely weekend and can’t wait to go this year (hopefully). When you are talking championship level internationals, any sponsorship that allows such great courses, facilities, setting etc should be applauded.

 

[teapot]

I can understand from an owner’s point of view, you absolutely should get more than a cold coffee in a paper cup!

However owners are not the only target market. It’s the luxury/elite vibe as @SaddlePsych'D mentioned that I don’t know is a good or bad thing for the sport in a modern world. I am aware Cornbury remains a great value day out though ticket wise! Just an interesting position of cheap entry tickets but your sponsor(s) are companies many wouldn’t even have heard of/ever used.

Why’s a private jet company willing to sponsor but [insert international equine brand here] isn’t?

 

[LEC]

They probably have larger marketing budgets and there will be an aspect of corporate attendance for the day with a meal. I attended Barbury several years ago as a guest of St James Place and had an amazing day and food. I think tickets were £75 each and both my partner and I attended paid for by a local partner as did a lot of business with my partners mother.

I dont have an issue with it. We can’t moan about lack of prize money or facilities and then turn around and go well I dont agree the money comes from an elitist company.

David Howden has done terrific things for the sport. His £1 million has gone into a lot of different areas which benefit grassroots up. Cornbury is an aspirational event for an average person like me, along with events such as Chatsworth.

Hartpury had Aston Martin as a sponsor….. it was nice seeing the cars dotted about. Certainly gave it a different feel and yet title sponsor was NAF who have been loyal sponsors at all levels for RC champs upwards.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

It really is.
And I appreciate it might seem (is!) elitist but coming from an owner perspective it is much appreciated. It’s a massively expensive game and for the most part of the year you are lucky to get a free cup of instant coffee.

Last year the owner facilities at Cornbury were superb, I had the most lovely weekend and can’t wait to go this year (hopefully). When you are talking championship level internationals, any sponsorship that allows such great courses, facilities, setting etc should be applauded.

Well I hope that it does translate to better facilities for owners and for judges/stewards/volunteers as well. I'm not particularly critical of the sponsorship, it's just very not my vibe. I was at Cornbury in 2022 and enjoyed it. Looks like much bigger this year with the YH classes (I don't think they were there before?)

 

[teapot]

I’m not saying I don’t agree with it but with a sport that already appears to be elite to the average member of the general public, plus the fact we’re using horses as the sport, makes me take stock a bit more I guess. Having been asked about CDJ and the two other Olympic sports by non-horsey colleagues, I’ve ended up having some opening conversations about how things are viewed, and it was a reality check, frankly.

You also want more people to attend, spectate and follow the sport in order to help it survive. Like @SaddlePsych'D it’s maybe not my vibe, and it’s all very well if hospitality and owners have a nice day out, but means sod all if the fence judges get a crap day!

There’s also no denying what the Howdens have done for the sport, but being propped up by one family isn’t exactly financially safe either.

 

[LEC]

No, but as discussed on this thread many times there are massive issues!

I made myself sit through half an hour of milestone equestrian yesterday on YT to see what issues were raised at the Olympics. I only disagreed on the mouth opening on xc issues. i ride a horse on Xc in a snaffle and loose cavesson who opens her mouth….. I didn’t really even disagree on the kineton not fitting issue though I have also found them tricky to fit and only the very odd horse can I get them to work on where it doesn’t drop - I like them as spreads the pressure round the nose and mouth and they don’t keep the horses mouth shut.
The one thing I have discussed with TM was that Laura Collett had a near perfect test with 82% yet the pure dressage lot hit those kind of marks all day long with big mistakes which probably highlights to me all the more that judging is the issue and if that changed then the rest would change very quickly. Anyway a slight digression but perspective was mentioned above.

We also had a lot of comments on our YT and my comment back was there are 2 million sport horses and with a huge machine behind it, not saying whether this is right or wrong but what do you think would happen if horse sport was stopped? I love horses but tbh I would quit riding. Would probably see out the end of time with what I had but then quit. Hacking out is awful now and I am not interested in training with no purpose. I am not interested in a pasture puff.

I do see the FEI as the problem here as lots of changes they could make which would be deemed a good move.

 

[ihatework]

I completely get where you are both coming from and I very much hope I'm not coming across overly elitist (But with the caveat that we need to face facts that there is an element of elitism in international eventing). I'm so aware of public perception and social licence.

But what I would caution on is statements like 'and it’s all very well if hospitality and owners have a nice day out, but means sod all if the fence judges get a crap day!' - I take real umbrage to that - why would good sponsorship and happy owners mean a crap day for fence judges???? Now I haven't volunteered at Cornbury but given the thought given to everything else last year (SaddlePsych'D FYI they held YH last year) it would surprise (and disappoint) me if the volunteers weren't treated very well.

So I'm really trying to understand your points because when every stakeholder in eventing can understand other stakeholders positions, then we stand a better chance of saving the sport.

So what I'm hearing is there will be a % of stakeholders that have issue with sponsorship coming from what is likely to be a close connection of the Howdens and is sponsorship that is pretty much irrelevant to horses. Furthermore 'you' don't like the luxury vibe.

Aside from the owner facilities last year, what I witnessed from a general spectator position: A centrally located venue with easy access in a parkland setting. Compact setting with the central area close to the parking, a bar centrally with seating in front of a big screen adjacent to the bar. A small selection of shopping (not enough would be my critiscisim) and a smallish but good selection of catering (locally sourced meat etc) with a decent vegan stand too. All in the normal ballpark price for a horse event.
Add to that David Howden had displayed all his classic cars around the area, which attracted a lot of interested bystanders/husbands etc admiring.
The weather helped obviously. The vibe wasn't unwelcoming, but was catered more for people coming for the sport rather than shopping.

Given we are loosing that type of venue hand over fist because the books don't balance, landowners don't need the hassle and can make a revenue doing other things then personally we should be really thankful that we have a very wealthy enthusiast willing to invest in the sport. I honestly believe it's what the majority of paying BE members want access to or aspirations for .... it's all very well going to a low key venue and standing in the mud most of the time, but if that were all there was on offer the sport would likely die out I feel.

 

[Squeak]

Personally this one sounds to me a bit like can't do right for doing wrong - I don't expect to buy from/ support every sponsor (I do wish I could have a rolex or landrover though!) or that they will all be relevant to me but I really appreciate that they are supporting the sport I love and enjoy.

If I had spare cash, with eventing struggling, I'd love to be able to inject some money into the sport or an event. I'd be devastated if this was then unwanted because it was construed as being unhelpful and making the sport more elitist - I'm not saying this is the case here as I don't know the parties involved.

 

[clinkerbuilt]

I can understand from an owner’s point of view, you absolutely should get more than a cold coffee in a paper cup!

However owners are not the only target market. It’s the luxury/elite vibe as @SaddlePsych'D mentioned that I don’t know is a good or bad thing for the sport in a modern world. I am aware Cornbury remains a great value day out though ticket wise! Just an interesting position of cheap entry tickets but your sponsor(s) are companies many wouldn’t even have heard of/ever used.

Why’s a private jet company willing to sponsor but [insert international equine brand here] isn’t?

it was a royal stud in the fourteenth century - I don't know why they don't make more of that now given the heritage/elite associations. (Big gap, I know )

 

[teapot]

I completely get where you are both coming from and I very much hope I'm not coming across overly elitist (But with the caveat that we need to face facts that there is an element of elitism in international eventing). I'm so aware of public perception and social licence.

But what I would caution on is statements like 'and it’s all very well if hospitality and owners have a nice day out, but means sod all if the fence judges get a crap day!' - I take real umbrage to that - why would good sponsorship and happy owners mean a crap day for fence judges???? Now I haven't volunteered at Cornbury but given the thought given to everything else last year (SaddlePsych'D FYI they held YH last year) it would surprise (and disappoint) me if the volunteers weren't treated very well.

By all acounts Cornbury is a wonderful event, well aware of that, and I don't know what Cornbury does for its fence judges, but if a event is all singing and dancing for owners who are an integral part of the sport, yet the fence judges don't get a chance to pee for 12 hours, or get a manky sandwich, that's not ok - fence judges are as valuable to the sport as owners, especially given people give up their time to do it. I volunteered somewhere once where it was all singing, all dancing, manicured hedges in pots, flowers, statues, the works, yet the volunteers were treated like crap. That's my point. It was all show and no substance, so it looks great and appears to give off this vibe of luxury, but the people who doing the grunt work had a far different experience. I highly doubt Cornbury does it, but you only have to read social media to know some event treat their fence judges badly, yet the competitior or owner experience is quite quite different. Not saying you drown your fence judges in oysters and champagne as that's not financially viable either, but events could strive to ensure everyone feels valued I feel? If you're valued as a customer, volunteer or owner, you'll go back.

On the sponsorship side, it's wider than where it comes from though for me - this push on luxury has made me stop and think about who they want attending. If they're aiming for those who can donate a million to BE to prop it up, then fine, or someone rich enough to fund the next GB team horse, totally fine, but it can and does make other people question whether they should be there. When the sport needs all the help it can get, I'm not sure luxury this and luxury is the best way of attracting people to attend. I'd love to know what/who their target market is, because regardless of industry, they're still a business. I'm guess I'm just wondering here what their real aim is? Wellington's four day event has an entirely different vibe and is hugely popular. An entirely different market perhaps, but just as important you could argue.

I have no aversion to expensive events, paying three figures for a ticket to something, or even hospitality, nor do I feel anything but 'well thank god for him' re the Howden input, but for a sport like eventing, sat in the uber precarious place that it is, and it is dying in within the country house landscapes, sadly (plus the environmental aspect of eventing which is a whole other issue), I just can't help but wonder whether these things help in some ways but hinder in others. It's a bit of bigger picture thinking I guess, and now I don't even have a finger tip involved with horses, I'm noticing how the sport comes across to the uninitiated far more now than I ever have done, especially in the context of using an animal for sport too.

(Also acutely aware I work in/on developing equality and equity across the world so maybe my perspective on what actually matters has changed somewhat )

 

[TPO]

But you can't event, or even own a horse, without a fair amount of disposable income. That's elitist, especially in the current climate.

Eventing is elitist, in that you need money because it's expensive. I've never found the majority of competitors and their helpers to be welcoming, supportive and encouraging so I would make the distinct between the sport and the participants.

The sport needs to attract money.

I really can't understand the take of not wanting sponsorship money or to attract people who have the potential to fund the sport.

FJs that aren't treated well don't go back and the sport can't run without them. It doesn't take long for an event's reputation to spread if it's doesn't look after volunteers.

There's also some people who enjoy FJing regardless of how they are "looked after". My mum's friend always does Blair and a fair few others. She couldn't care less about breaks or food, she just enjoys being at BE. To each their own.

If people want BE to keep going it needs cash injections. I find it really strange that people who don't event to have an opinion on the money coming from "elite" business or that event's are marketed as "luxury". I have never evented, always the groom with a vet bill at home, but I definitely wouldn't day more to getting more for your buck than standing in a cold field with a burger van!!!

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

But you can't event, or even own a horse, without a fair amount of disposable income. That's elitist, especially in the current climate.

Eventing is elitist, in that you need money because it's expensive. I've never found the majority of competitors and their helpers to be welcoming, supportive and encouraging so I would make the distinct between the sport and the participants.

The sport needs to attract money.

I really can't understand the take of not wanting sponsorship money or to attract people who have the potential to fund the sport.

FJs that aren't treated well don't go back and the sport can't run without them. It doesn't take long for an event's reputation to spread if it's doesn't look after volunteers.

There's also some people who enjoy FJing regardless of how they are "looked after". My mum's friend always does Blair and a fair few others. She couldn't care less about breaks or food, she just enjoys being at BE. To each their own.

If people want BE to keep going it needs cash injections. I find it really strange that people who don't event to have an opinion on the money coming from "elite" business or that event's are marketed as "luxury". I have never evented, always the groom with a vet bill at home, but I definitely wouldn't day more to getting more for your buck than standing in a cold field with a burger van!!!

Why would people who don't event not have an opinion about various aspects of it?

 

[teapot]

If people want BE to keep going it needs cash injections. I find it really strange that people who don't event to have an opinion on the money coming from "elite" business or that event's are marketed as "luxury". I have never evented, always the groom with a vet bill at home, but I definitely wouldn't day more to getting more for your buck than standing in a cold field with a burger van!!!

I've groomed at events, worked with and for people who have evented to reasonable level, and I'm a paying spectactor watching a sport trying to survive in the modern world - the you can't comment if you don't do x thing does my head in. It's also not about bang for your buck either, Cornbury's one of the cheapest events you can spectate at (I wouldn't expect much as a spectator for £15 entry either!)

It was simply questioning the optics of extremely high end luxury sponsorship in a sport that's already got enough elite issues to stumble over, during a cost of living crisis. Private jet travel is elite elite, someone else mentioned Rolex - less luxury than you'd think - you could buy two, maybe three for the price for a decent schoolmaster in comparison. I also appreciate the responses from @ihatework and @LEC - as I can totally see your viewpoints too


As I say, an obversation of an event that truly appears to be a world away from others, and I'm left wondering who they're targeting

 

[TPO]

It's not id you don't do it you can't have an opinion. It's if you don't do it why do you want to quash ways to make it possible for people who do.

Fair enough if the money was unethical and the sponsor money was from peopletrafficking.com by why all the knicker twisting about money from an "elite" company?

Eventing is never going to before the "everyman". Much like something such as yachting. You need money, or backing, to participate.

Trying to make an issue out of someone with money support an expensive sport is a bit of a straw man argument.

 

[TheMule]

I couldn’t give a monkeys who sponsors an event- I'm just grateful anyone is willing to support the sport. Without a title sponsor the event might not be viable. Beggars can’t be choosers?!

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

It's not id you don't do it you can't have an opinion. It's if you don't do it why do you want to quash ways to make it possible for people who do.

Fair enough if the money was unethical and the sponsor money was from peopletrafficking.com by why all the knicker twisting about money from an "elite" company?

Eventing is never going to before the "everyman". Much like something such as yachting. You need money, or backing, to participate.

Trying to make an issue out of someone with money support an expensive sport is a bit of a straw man argument.

I can't speak for @teapot but just to clarify again I don't particularly have an issue with the sponsorship, just observing the particularly high-end level of it (even for eventing!)

I couldn’t give a monkeys who sponsors an event- I'm just grateful anyone is willing to support the sport. Without a title sponsor the event might not be viable. Beggars can’t be choosers?!

There's probably a line somewhere. I'd suggest peopletrafficking.com would be on the wrong side of that line for example.

 

[teapot]

That I do agree with @TheMule - no funding, no events. Totally get that

I'm not saying the money's a bad idea at all. It's absolutely needed for events to survive, and for owners to have a good day out (and hopefully all volunteers too) - I'm simply observing the nature of where it is coming from and the possible optics as a result. The luxury post after luxury post on social media could easily put someone off attending if they assumed it was going to be £50 entry (on a luxury = increased cost type basis). Maybe people don't actually care if only five specators turn up at 3* and lower, I don't know? Would the 4* and 5* events survive without spectators?

It's not just eventing though, England Rugby's new sponsorship deal with Allianz has led to calls of the RFU selling out/selling their soul with Twickenham losing its name. Sponsorship deals reach much further than people realise sometimes, and makes for an interesting discussion I feel!

 

[TPO]

The optics to who? Joe Bloggs on the street barely knows eventing exists. Big events are sponsored by Rolex and Land Rover etc so hardly every day products.

Anyone involved with horses already knows that eventing/BE is an expensive support.

As @TheMule Said far more succinctly than me, BE/eventing needs money and beggars can't be choosers.

 

[Orangehorse]

Cornbury sounds great - I'll try to go. Thank you.

 

[teapot]

The optics to who? Joe Bloggs on the street barely knows eventing exists. Big events are sponsored by Rolex and Land Rover etc so hardly every day products.

Anyone involved with horses already knows that eventing/BE is an expensive support.

As @TheMule Said far more succinctly than me, BE/eventing needs money and beggars can't be choosers.

I'm thinking of the hundreds of thousands of other people who make up the equestrian industry, probably don't event, but like a horse based day out with the kids, good place to take the dog, visit some tradestands. BE's membership is only 15000 ish? I doubt the average livery yard based non-competing owner knows how much a BE event actually costs to enter tbh. That said I do appreciate some events probably don't care, and it's simply about entertaining people, with wheeling and dealing over lunch, rather than the actual sport. Barbury came across as an event for the sport first, despite the main sponsor; Cornbury I'm less sure of the intentions this year from their social media

Will bow out now - sorry for the random fork in the road observation.

 

[ihatework]

Okay teapot I’m going to say one last thing then bow out too because I’m getting a little annoyed.

I think you are right in that the USP of Cornbury is aiming for a more up market vibe, I don’t think that’s necessarily wrong, just different to your example you gave of Wellington - an event I assume has to be far more commercially viable, and therefore has less frills and far more family stuff to do - kids entertainment and the country fair etc.
the events are very different. I’d say despite entry being higher Wellington far better value for money for a family day out.

But I’m absolutely fuming at your initial suggestion that Cornbury cares more about wining and dining than its volunteers (completely unfounded, why can’t they care about both?) and then in this latest post that entertaining people is more important than the sport …. I’ve literally just had to pick my jaw up off the floor.

To me the sport is the highest priority if I attend an event, either as a spectator or an owner and I can tell you one thing …. For the quality of sport (best young horses in the country have Cornbury circled in red in their diary) viewing (big screens), horse welfare (ground and cooling facilities were exceptional at Cornbury). I would actively avoid champagne and oysters and posh people going ‘ra’ at each other! But I do appreciate a calm atmosphere and quality and Cornbury offered that in spades. It’s an event for those whose priority is the sport, not necessarily a family day out.

 

[TheMule]

Thanks to this post I’ve just followed Cornbury on social media and entered a competition to win VIP hospitality for 2 people- I’m looking forward to being entertained, wheeled and dealed over lunch!
Their posts appear to be a balance of promoting their sponsors and promoting the sport, doesn’t bother me.

 

[ester]

For some reason most sponsors actually pass me by completely, they're just completely irrelevant to me. For the big events they more just become synonymous with the name of the event so like it's called the rolex grand slam but Id have to think about rolex actually meaning rolex. . I only know longines even make watches because I've heard a commentator say at some point that they were providing the timing. . . They're irrelevant companies to me so become not a thing.

 

[Roxylola]

I've been to various events/shows/competitions over the years as a spectator as well as a competitor. Some charge entry, some don't. I'm more inclined to go and support a free or low cost entry a bit further away than pay (in some cases quite a bit) to go. If I go, I'll generally do a bit of shopping while there, I'll certainly buy food.
If having a super exclusive fancy swanky sponsor means I can spectate for free and spend my money while I'm there I'd much rather that than a few low budget sponsors and paid entry.
Everyone saying you have to have "spare" cash to have horses and event though, while I'm alright in that I can pay my bills (just) I work 50 hours a week to do it, have a lot of credit card debt and can't afford much beyond absolute necessities for myself - ie food and fuel. I just prioritise horses

 

[VRIN]

Great news - Frenchfields is back on the calendar!

 

[ihatework]

Great news - Frenchfields is back on the calendar!

Out of my area but brilliant news for the northern contingent!

 

[VRIN]

Thanks to this post I’ve just followed Cornbury on social media and entered a competition to win VIP hospitality for 2 people- I’m looking forward to being entertained, wheeled and dealed over lunch!
Their posts appear to be a balance of promoting their sponsors and promoting the sport, doesn’t bother me.

Thanks for the heads up - I have just entered too

 

[LittleOwl]

My twopenneth on Cornbury as a volunteer…(even though the conversation has moved on!)

In 2022 my horse was out of action so did a bit of a volunteering tour of the midlands/south to experience new events. I’ve done a lot of volunteering for many years and hands down it was the best one I’ve done.

I was dressage writing and we were given breakfast, a proper sit down lunch and snacks/drinks through the day. They even offered to pay my mileage as I was travelling from 2 hours away. The writers were treated equally to the judges which is something I don’t always find at BE events. I spoke to some other experienced writers over lunch and we all felt like we were treated to the Cornbury “experience”. If I was more local I’d go back every year

 

[teapot]

That’s great to hear @LittleOwl. Just to clarify I didn’t assume they wouldn’t be like that at all, just highlighted the fact that some events are fabulous in part but not all aspects ( which then reduces the fabulous element somewhat I felt). I just worded it badly. In this case it is an all round excellent event and undoubtedly much needed

 

[ihatework]

My twopenneth on Cornbury as a volunteer…(even though the conversation has moved on!)

In 2022 my horse was out of action so did a bit of a volunteering tour of the midlands/south to experience new events. I’ve done a lot of volunteering for many years and hands down it was the best one I’ve done.

I was dressage writing and we were given breakfast, a proper sit down lunch and snacks/drinks through the day. They even offered to pay my mileage as I was travelling from 2 hours away. The writers were treated equally to the judges which is something I don’t always find at BE events. I spoke to some other experienced writers over lunch and we all felt like we were treated to the Cornbury “experience”. If I was more local I’d go back every year

What lovely feedback and just how it should be