soaking hay - vitamin loss

[Horsegirl25]

I seen a post on facebook about soaking hay for an extended period of time and the amount of minerals that were lost from the hay - it basically said minerals should always be replaced.
I will attach the photo below of how much loss there is.
Anyway, I soak my boys nets anywhere between 10-12 hours, I feed the topspec all in one vitamin and minerals but I don't think it is replacing half the amount that is lost?
Should I be feeding a balancer? Will I put electrolytes in his feed? Or am I just really overthinking this...

 

[Horsegirl25]

 

[Jenko109]

Soaking for such a long period is completely unnecessary.

You can feed a balancer if it's going to make you feel better, however I personally have never done so and think it's all a bit of a gimmick.

 

[MuddyMonster]

Hay soaking time is a grey area, even vet's often can't agree!

I personally soak for 10 hours or so too (unless very hot). But other's will swear an hour is plenty and there's some that will say too long is bad, but not long enough is also bad too. Basically, whatever you do there's an argument against it on FB

I've always fed a vitamin and mineral balancer when soaking hay, especially over winter when less minerals in the grass. I use Profressive Earth personally.

But if your horse looks well & is going well, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

 

[Roxylola]

In terms of vitamin loss, going off that table there's not a lot of difference between 2 hours and 8 hours, so I'd say if you're happiest soaking for longer then keep doing that.
The vitamin replacement is difficult though - soaking obviously leaches a lot, but there may still be enough to meet the rda so I'd say you're overthinking and just keep on as you are if your horse is happy and well on that regime

 

[SEL]

I was one of the people who commented on this post that I thought Forage Plus were wrong to post this and imply that hay soaking is unnecessary.

The under 10% NSC "rule" is around finding a level where the insulin response from horses with EMS (& PSSM my subject area) is minimised. For some horses 10% is still too much. It also doesn't take account of the fact that many, many horses find hay at that level is still providing too much nutrition in the form of calories - hay soaking absolutely helps reduce that and absolutely helps reduce their input whilst not restricting their fibre intake.

FP's response to me was that we should all be feeding measured amounts of dry hay in small holed haynets. Having had the pleasure of looking after a welsh pony who came down with laminitis after a reaction to a wormer I can categorically say that there are many ponies who can devour a small holed haynet in a time that would earn them an olympic medal if it was a competitive sport. He would have been without food for most of the night if we hadn't soaked his hay.

One of the vets I know is forever bashing her head against a wall with owners who refuse to see their ponies are fat let alone take corrective action and I think posts like this are unhelpful with that battle. No one soaks hay because it is fun - its a horrible, smelly, back breaking job.

Would I feed a balancer? Yes if the majority of their diet is soaked hay but I also wouldn't lose sleep over it.

 

[teacups]

My vet advised soaking for 1-2 hours.
Not sure what other vets advise.

 

[Tiddlypom]

This is not good coming from Forageplus, they are out of their depth here. I’m a regular customer of theirs, but I’m not at all impressed with this.

Soaking hay to reduce dust levels is one thing, and soaking it to reduce nutrient levels is quite another, but both are valid reasons often recommended by vets. Some horses need soaked hay both to reduce dust and to reduce nutrients.

Forageplus should remember the mantra ‘do no harm’. By encouraging owners to feed dry hay rather than soaked hay they risk encouraging harm.

 

[tristars]

i`d rather feed soaked hay than straw ,i`ve never fed straw to anything

i get the hay soaked for about 20 mins, then drain, for any dust more than anything else, try to retain vits and mns

then it ready to use for the next feed time, its no hassle not much effort and well worth it

in winter and hot weather it helps with hydration

it depends on the type of hay if its to remove sugars how long to soak

i would never feed dry hay to anybody

 

[SO1]

My understanding about soaking hay is that by reducing the sugar content the hay becomes less fattening for ponies that need to reduce their weight. A lot of people who soak hay also use small holed haynets to make sure the hay last longer and weigh the hay too.

So for example if a pony needing 4 kilos of hay overnight needing weight loss is already having 4 kilos of dry hay in a small haynet then soaking the hay will help the pony loose weight.

Bert is on a diet as he is overweight. He was on dry hay weighed in a small holed haynet. To help reduce his calories intake the hay is now soaked for an hour in addition to his muzzle.

Without testing the soaked hay and grass knowing how much grass is consumed you don't know how much mineral and vitamins are being consumed versus how much needed. Pasture and hay are not uniform. Everything is a bit of a guess.

The balancer and supplement market is huge and preys on our vulnerability to try and make sure our horses are getting the best we can give them and also for those with horses that have issues. If seems there is a supplement for every condition.

What most people who soak hay are primarily wanting to is treat or avoid laminitis and this can be a very distressing time for them and they are presuming that these people have not already tried dry hay weighed and in small haynets when the reason they are probably soaking hay that has not worked.

 

[canteron]

I have often wondered if you soaked the hay for less time but were quite strick about rinsing all the ‘sugary’ water off, it would give a good balance between calorie control and vitamin loss.

But then that’s just another arduous process?

 

[Toby_Zaphod]

I don't really soak hay, well not for any longer than 15 minutes. I soak/wet my hay nets to get rid of dust and most hay bales are very dusty so this reduces it going into their lungs. My boys are 22 years & 26 years, they're still ridden which they love & their is nothing wrong with their airways.

 

[dougpeg]

I saw the post. In an ideal world I wouldn't soak but this years hay is dusty and my Highland pony is fat. There is no joy in dragging heavy, wet haynets over my shoulders but needs must. Cutting down on the amount of hay isn't an option for me. I don't like them standing around with nothing to eat for long periods of time, and even using trickle nets, my pony gets through it quickly. I didn't find the post particularly helpful really. I think most people know soaking removes nutrients. Most people including myself give supplements so I don't see it as a big issue.

 

[Miss_Millie]

Some of their responses to people disagreeing were incredibly rude. "Happy Sunday and happy soaking

just ponder those losses.

"

Passive aggressive much?

Another long-term customer who isn't impressed by this conduct

What is with the lack of nuance in the horse world lately? Surely they can't make a black and white statement that soaking hay is bad for all horses in each and every scenario?

 

[paddy555]

FP's response to me was that we should all be feeding measured amounts of dry hay in small holed haynets.

This is not good coming from Forageplus, they are out of their depth here. I’m a regular customer of theirs, but I’m not at all impressed with this.

Soaking hay to reduce dust levels is one thing, and soaking it to reduce nutrient levels is quite another, but both are valid reasons often recommended by vets. Some horses need soaked hay both to reduce dust and to reduce nutrients.

Forageplus should remember the mantra ‘do no harm’. By encouraging owners to feed dry hay rather than soaked hay they risk encouraging harm.

this is poor advice from FP. That in itself is not good as you then wonder about other things they advise on.

I was told by my vet that ALL hay must be soaked to deal with dust. That includes all hay however good or poor the quality is.
So who should I believe? unqualified FP or my vet who doubtless dealt with lots of coughing and COPD horses who had been fed dusty hay.

I don't really soak hay, well not for any longer than 15 minutes. I soak/wet my hay nets to get rid of dust and most hay bales are very dusty so this reduces it going into their lungs. My boys are 22 years & 26 years, they're still ridden which they love & their is nothing wrong with their airways.

I too soak all hay probably no longer than 15 mins if I remember and longer if I forget. I soak purely for dust.

Several of mine are also old, ridden and they too have nothing wrong with their airways.

Soaking hay may be a PITA but it is pretty cheap. Dealing with a horse with compromised airways due to dust isn't cheap by the time vets have been paid and is even more of a PITA than soaking.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Crikey, Forageplus, I’ve just read some of your superior and snipey ‘we know best’ put downs to people asking sensible questions about this on your Facebook page.

You have just lost a long standing frequent flying customer (me) who has often recommended your products to others.

Pride comes before a fall…

 

[paddy555]

FP's response to me was that we should all be feeding measured amounts of dry hay in small holed haynets.

a pony can empty a small holed net at record speed. All the holes do is frustrate it in the attempts

My understanding was that hay should be few low down with the horse eating in an "on the ground" position so nets need to be tied very low but of course then we have the problem of feet in nets.

My understanding about soaking hay is that by reducing the sugar content the hay becomes less fattening for ponies that need to reduce their weight. A lot of people who soak hay also use small holed haynets to make sure the hay last longer and weigh the hay too.

to my mind this makes small holed nets even worse. With dry hay in small holes there is a lot of stress on the neck especially if the net it tied up high. Especially so in a horse/pony who is forage restricted due to weight. They are desperate for what they can get having found themselves in a state of starvation.
Getting soaked hay out of small holed nets is a lot harder than getting dry hay through the holes so even more strain.

I tried to restrict soaked hay to my haflinger using a small holed net hung up. It took one net, which he finished at record speed, to show me that if I continued I would be paying for a physio to repair the damage he was doing to his neck with the speed and force he was using to get the hay out.

 

[paddy555]

Crikey, Forageplus, I’ve just read some of your superior and snipey ‘we know best’ put downs to people asking sensible questions about this on your Facebook page.

You have just lost a long standing frequent flying customer who has often recommended your products to others.

Pride comes before a fall…

what a relief. I glanced at your post which was immediately after I posted, just saw "superior and snipey" and thought it was me.

haven't seen the FB page so off to find it.

 

[humblepie]

I don't like small holed haynets for the reason above although appreciate that they may need to be used.

Nothing scientific to support this whatsoever but a barn of horses where I keep mine have all had respiratory problems this winter apart from the two who have soaked hay. The problem wasn't associated with the hay which is well made and I think it was bacterial or viral but I did wonder if having the soaked hay helped in some way.

 

[criso]

The balancer and supplement market is huge and preys on our vulnerability to try and make sure our horses are getting the best we can give them and also for those with horses that have issues. If seems there is a supplement for every condition.

In this case the point was being made that it is better to test the hay so you know what you are dealing with and how much if any soaking is needed rather than adding supplements so technically they are doing themselves out of trade. They weren't saying look how much nutrition is lost, buy our supplements to put it back but test and if less than 10% you may not need to soak.

Of course you may be on a yard where the only hay option is very high in sugars and there's no alternative and have no choice but to soak.

 

[MuddyMonster]

I didn't realise this was ForagePlus when I first posted.

Regardless of their intentions, their marketing/PR/client service approach on FB has just made sure I'm very unlikely to buy a FP product

 

[Reacher]

I can’t find the FB post (hate faceache and don’t use it much so am a numpty at finding posts) but it’s odd how many supplement companies (eg DM at SS) and other professionals (eg shouty vet thread) think being rude to their potential customers is a good sales strategy.

I have tested grass (but not hay ) and FP recommended their skin and hoof balancer which I use. I do soak hay (2 seniors, both with dust allergy, one prone to put on weight, other prone to colic and I think soaking makes it gentler on her guts.

 

[SEL]

a pony can empty a small holed net at record speed. All the holes do is frustrate it in the attempts

My understanding was that hay should be few low down with the horse eating in an "on the ground" position so nets need to be tied very low but of course then we have the problem of feet in nets.



to my mind this makes small holed nets even worse. With dry hay in small holes there is a lot of stress on the neck especially if the net it tied up high. Especially so in a horse/pony who is forage restricted due to weight. They are desperate for what they can get having found themselves in a state of starvation.
Getting soaked hay out of small holed nets is a lot harder than getting dry hay through the holes so even more strain.

I tried to restrict soaked hay to my haflinger using a small holed net hung up. It took one net, which he finished at record speed, to show me that if I continued I would be paying for a physio to repair the damage he was doing to his neck with the speed and force he was using to get the hay out.

The old boy just used to bite through small holes nets or - being a draft with a collosal neck - pull them off the wall in frustration. The Welshie could devour them in record time.

I have found with the PSSM Appy than a small net (normal holes) of dry hay along with a bit on the floor satisfies the "I am starved and about to die" urges and then she can move onto the soaked net when the desperation has died down.

(For avoidance of doubt my Appy is built like a tank and dying from starvation is as likely as me winning the lottery)

 

[tristars]

well even the hay thats been tested for A gets soaked here

 

[irishdraft]

I've been soaking my own hay, for storage dust reasons for over 30 years, I usually soak for 1 to 2 hours. Horses always eat up and I can't say I've ever been aware of mineral/vitamin loss problems. I won't stop soaking hay because of some Facebook post because I have my own functioning brain which means I don't slavishly follow everything I read.

 

[Tiddlypom]

It’s not just some random crackpot post from a know nothing, of which there are many on Facebook. Forageplus are (or were ) a respected major player in equine supplements, a successful company.

Here they are telling people that it is better to feed less dry hay rather than more soaked hay, with barely a nod as to why it is always better for respiratory health to feed hay that has been at least dampened. Dry hay is never best. They are also accusing vets of not understanding the effect of soaking on the nutritional analysis of hay.

Their condescending attitude to anyone who has queried what they said is eye opening.

 

[Maxidoodle]

I’m quite disgusted by their responses to the genuine comments on their original post, really good valid and well thought out comments, their original post and their replies to the comments is enough for me to know I’ll not want to be a customer of theirs.

 

[Nasicus]

View attachment 135669

I mean, sure soaked hay may lose 44% of it's phosphorus content, but if the original amount it has was sweet FA then the remaining 56% of sweet FA is still FA!
Works the other way too, if the hay originally had 200% of a horses RDA of phosphorus, then soaking out 44% of it isn't going to result in deficiencies.
Not to mention the horse may already be getting all it's RDA of minerals provided from other sources of nutrition such as grass, hedgerows, bucket feeds and supplements, heck even the water they drink has mineral content!

Unless you're testing each batch of hay to get the mineral content every time, and counting the mineral intake from all other sources then this table is useless and strikes as little more than a scaremongering marketing tactic.

 

[holeymoley]

I agree with the above, you need to test all hay bales to find out the mineral content in the first place.

As the owner of an insulin resistant horse, I've soaked hay from 6-8 hours when actively laminitic and now to 1 hour. I sometimes now don't bother at this time of year. I'm a firm believer that soaking for anything over 6-8 hours is really an overkill, especially if you don't rinse off and let it lie before you are basically feeding your horse something very stagnant and disgusting. I would feed a mineral supplement if you soak 6/8 hours, there's bound to be some things leached out amongst sugar. If soaking for 1 hour, I think it's really a 'see how it goes' if the horse gets not much else then by all means a mineral supplement is probably beneficial, if they get a hard feed then I would think they're okay.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Soaking for such a long period is completely unnecessary.

You can feed a balancer if it's going to make you feel better, however I personally have never done so and think it's all a bit of a gimmick.

Unless your horse has acute laminitis flare up, I had to soak hay 12 hrs then rinse it through.