Something isn't right?

[Hormonal Filly]

UPDATE

Vet injected his left hock/lower suspensory coming up to 3 weeks ago.
After riding him over the last couple of weeks, I am certain there is no change.
He is still not himself, not very forward off the leg and a outline seems harder than ever. When taken for a canter in the open field he tries to nap (very unlike him) and afterwards when walking around the field he trips a lot on his hind legs. Its a very weird feeling and not a comfortable feeling.

I spoke to the vet, we agreed on another strong bute trial and to see a physio. Vet thinks 4 bute a day for a horse his side should make a huge difference and he should feel great. I only done 4 bute a day trial for 3 days as I had the physio (vet recommended) coming out and he had to be off all bute a while before that.

I rode him while on the bute trial and he didn't feel any different even on the bute so was very surprised. I expected a big change but if i'm honest he felt exact the same. A experienced friend rode him (who also rode him before hock injection) while he was on the bute and after a few minutes of really riding him, she did manage to get him working in a nice outline (he looked like he use to 6 months ago!) but he was dripping in sweat and panting heavily for only 5 minutes so called it a day. She said it was extremely difficult to ride him to it and judging by how he was (sweating, panting) he clearly found it very difficult and was hard work to do it. Bless him.

The physio saw him yesterday. Watched him walk and trot and said he does look funny behind but not lame but she thought his right leg hock looked stiff and stifle action was slightly odd on that hind (medicated one) but not slipping or sticking. Mind hes always walked and trotted a bit funny on his back end as of his confirmation we put it down to, so could be this.
When stepping in on a right circle hes very reluctant but right hind much worse than left.

She was certain he'd feel tight throughout.. but was amazed how 'nice' he felt considering I said he wasn't right. She said he was surprisingly balanced, his muscle tone (and she said he had a nice muscle tone) was completely even on both sides of his bum and she only found one sore area (she described as a 1/10 so only a small niggle) on HIS right SI area on his entire body. He stands square and never leg rests and didn't react once to show anything 'hurt' when she'd expected him to. She noticed he leans forward onto his front end and was resting most of his weight onto his right fore (right pec bulging) which was strange as his right fore lacks muscle compared to his left fore.

He has a old kick wound on the side of his neck with some muscle damage but he can extend, move his neck l/r etc no problems but she did say you could investigate if no lameness behind is found. His back legs he can also extend right out behind him evenly both sides.

She was basically miffed by him. I'm going to call the vet tonight and explain. She did say maybe hes always had arthritis in his stifle area thats got worse, thats mean't hes over compensated on his SI joint causing that to be sore but would expect him to be much more sore. I'm going to ask the vet to re-look at all of his previous x-rays.

Vet is booked for next week to visit and do nerve blocks but each nerve block is £80 and he'll possibly need to do quite a few. Already with a fairly bill i'm not sure what to do if i'm honest. I don't know how much more money I want to throw at this without possibly ever finding anything..

 

[ester]

thanks for the update, was there any thoughts on PSSM given that nothing else seems to be coming up?

 

[JillA]

Before you even mentioned the surface you were riding him on my first thought was feet and subclinical laminitis - it can present as just slightly "off". The grass has been pretty sugary of late and if he is a cob type........................I would manage his diet carefully so as to minimise any grass and sugars, and put him on bute for a week or so, and if you can, keep him on conforming bedding for that time. Then reassess

 

[Hormonal Filly]

thanks for the update, was there any thoughts on PSSM given that nothing else seems to be coming up?

My vet is very knowledgeable with PSSM apparently being the first port of call with horses in the South West with it. I will mention it again this evening though thank you!

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Before you even mentioned the surface you were riding him on my first thought was feet and subclinical laminitis - it can present as just slightly "off". The grass has been pretty sugary of late and if he is a cob type........................I would manage his diet carefully so as to minimise any grass and sugars, and put him on bute for a week or so, and if you can, keep him on conforming bedding for that time. Then reassess

Thank you for your comment JillA. I say cob, however hes a much finer type, perfect weight, shape, no crest the vet and physio said overall he was in good condition. Although I did mention to the vet that he doesn't want to walk on hard surfaces when walking to the field and pulls to walk on the grass but he has always done this as a youngster so unless I am noticing it more now as thinking about it.

Hes been on vertically no grass all summer, so would be strange for it to throw up laminitis now when on no grass and 2 years ago he use to be on grass up to his knees in 20 ac fields with 20 other horses. He is now on one haylage net a night due to having 0 grass in the field and this started 3 weeks ago, not noticed any change and purely as he started to drop weight as he always does (he isn't a great doer for a cob) although at my first yard he use to be kept in 24/7 2 years ago on haylage adlib. I would've thought having had him over 4 years and the fact he use to be on tons of grass and it was never a issue it would be odd to show up now? Hes never been 'fat' or had a crest but I do know they can have Laminitis with non of that present so i'll mention it to the vet 100%. Hes fed a molasses free alfalfa (has been on it for years) and a equilibria balancer which hes had for nearly a year now as well as linseed powder which just covers the bottom of a feed bucket.

Thank you.

 

[Alibear]

Perhaps have a cushings test done? That can cause laminitis despite the horse being a good weight, and dragging up old memories can cause some muscle problems to not a million miles away from PSSM ? Just a random thought. Good Luck.

 

[JillA]

Thank you for your comment JillA. I say cob, however hes a much finer type, perfect weight, shape, no crest the vet and physio said overall he was in good condition. Although I did mention to the vet that he doesn't want to walk on hard surfaces when walking to the field and pulls to walk on the grass but he has always done this as a youngster so unless I am noticing it more now as thinking about it.

Hes been on vertically no grass all summer, so would be strange for it to throw up laminitis now when on no grass and 2 years ago he use to be on grass up to his knees in 20 ac fields with 20 other horses. He is now on one haylage net a night due to having 0 grass in the field and this started 3 weeks ago, not noticed any change and purely as he started to drop weight as he always does (he isn't a great doer for a cob) although at my first yard he use to be kept in 24/7 2 years ago on haylage adlib. I would've thought having had him over 4 years and the fact he use to be on tons of grass and it was never a issue it would be odd to show up now? Hes never been 'fat' or had a crest but I do know they can have Laminitis with non of that present so i'll mention it to the vet 100%. Hes fed a molasses free alfalfa (has been on it for years) and a equilibria balancer which hes had for nearly a year now as well as linseed powder which just covers the bottom of a feed bucket.

Thank you.

I'd still ask your vet for a bute trial - if he is still less than happy on bute you have pain/inflammation,, all you have to do is work out where. If there is no change you have a mechanical lameness problem

 

[JillA]

I'd still ask your vet for a bute trial - if he is still less than happy on bute you have pain/inflammation,, all you have to do is work out where. If there is no change you have a mechanical lameness problem

Sorry, meant to say if he IS happy on bute...............

 

[DressageCob]

Wow, your vet has put him on 4 butes a day?! That's rather a lot. Especially since you say it has made no discernible difference.

hope you get it all sorted. I don't have any suggestions that haven't already been mentioned. Horse Vet Corner on facebook is a pretty good group to ask on too.

 

[SusieT]

two year old xrays are meaningless - go to an equine performance vet (ask around in your area).

 

[VRIN]

Can your vet friend look at him again?

 

[Hormonal Filly]

two year old xrays are meaningless - go to an equine performance vet (ask around in your area).

The x-rays are under 12 months old..

 

[DressageCob]

The x-rays are under 12 months old..

You said in the OP that he had full body X-rays in 2016...that's why people are saying they are two years old

 

[Hormonal Filly]

You said in the OP that he had full body X-rays in 2016...that's why people are saying they are two years old

Oops - apologies SusieT! Thanks for that DressageCob! It does say 2016.. a mistake there, well he had X-rays in 2016 and more 12 months ago. The vet who’s been visiting has looked at all previous xrays and surprised how clear his hocks and stifles look considering how boney they feel.
Vets coming out tomorrow evening to do nerve blocks.

Will report back!

 

[Ossy2]

Tbh I haven’t read all the replies so apologies if I’ve missed anything. But if it were me I’d not mess around with nerve blocks and the like I’d save my money and just go straight to having the legs scanned.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Tbh I haven’t read all the replies so apologies if I’ve missed anything. But if it were me I’d not mess around with nerve blocks and the like I’d save my money and just go straight to having the legs scanned.

I did mention this to the vet.. but he said they see so many scans these days of badly damaged or torn tendons, suspensories etc and the horses show no pain and is sound so he thinks it’s not worth scanning when on a low budget and nerve blocking will tell us exactly where the problem is. Obviously if inured they scan but this isn’t the case. Apparently we may scan the leg and it may not show a problem or it could be something we can’t see or it may show a problem but that may not be the painful area etc. Apparently tons of MRIs are done these days and sometimes they don’t show things you’d expect them to show.

If the nerve block reveales the painful are I’ll get it scanned though I think to look how severe it is etc.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Vet revisited and watched Alfie under saddle in the arena. 100% sound and tracks up perfect. He didn't feel 'too' bad to ride but didn't feel right and just funny to ride, hard to explain but something isn't right. Wouldn't work in a outline and the vet saw this, I explained he use to do a lovely test working into the contact. Vet now thinks he isn't lame enough to make it worth doing nerve blocks so doesn't want to nerve block.

I mentioned hes tripping a lot still and back end legs individually keep almost sliding forwards, vet witnessed this. Vet asked me to trot him on hard ground, completely sound. He then asked me to turn him in tight circles, he is unable to step under himself and was almost standing on his feet etc almost not sure where his back legs are.

Vet thinks this is significant and is now referring to a neck injury as the problem, approx 10 months ago where a mare kicked him in the neck causing a haematoma in his lower neck which disappeared after a few days and didn't think anything of it, although he does have a permanent visible crease in that muscle from the kick. He was seen by a vet shortly after who said don't worry its just muscle wastage from the kick, its nothing.

Vet now suspects that kick injury (apparently right where the lowest vertebra is on his neck) damaged his vertebra in his neck, causing spinal cord to be affected or arthritis has formed quickly affecting spinal cord.

Vet wants to come out Sunday and x-ray his neck to see where we go from there. Bill is already in excess of £400 with neck x-rays on top when he visits Sunday, starting at £220 for neck x-ray only plus any treatment etc. Vets won't do a pay monthly (they use to) and I don't have a credit card and already in my over draft in personal account. Considering getting a credit card or i'll use my only little savings I have saved if not.

I feel like I owe it to him to find out whats wrong and can't just give up now.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

To add, basically a possibility of wobblers.

Will report back after Sunday once x-rays have confirmed (if anyones still reading this, or they may do in the future so will keep updating, apologies if driving anyone mad)

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I hope your vet doesn't charge extra for a Sunday visit

 

[Roxylola]

Still following, not much I can add other than I really feel for you. I'd suggest getting the credit card in case but use your savings first - interest is rubbish anyway now

 

[Hormonal Filly]

I hope your vet doesn't charge extra for a Sunday visit

No, hes visiting Sunday and not charging me for it thankfully. He had to shoot off quickly while examining mine as he got a emergency call about a 'swinger' down the road, which (apparently) means a leg swinging. Its their top emergency so he was the closest vet and scrambled to the scene. He called me after to apologize, and explained the poor horse sustained a tragic kick in the field and its hind leg was hanging off, bone completely snapped so he had to rush off and put that to sleep. So upsetting and tragic for that owner, thoughts with them.

Thanks Roxylola.. I will go with savings before a credit card, don't quite trust myself with a credit card yet.

 

[Roxylola]

Thanks Roxylola.. I will go with savings before a credit card, don't quite trust myself with a credit card yet!

Put it in a tub of water in the freezer if you get it ahead of time then you can't impulse buy

 

[BBP]

Thanks for all the updates, I find it really helps when looking through threads like this in the future. Keeping my fingers crossed that you can get to the root of the issue and it’s something you can manage. And well done for working so hard to identify the problem on a ‘not quite right’ horse, many people don’t and the horse is made to work through it regardless. Your horse would thank you if he could.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

UPDATE 19/11/18
Vet visited and x-rayed pretty much Alfies entire body. He didn't need any sedation and stood like a saint for quite a while, with me holding him and the others holding the x-ray machine parts between his legs, back, neck etc. Vet said what a top little pony. It was almost like he knew we were trying to help him.
Results..
The fetlock x-rays showed he has 'mis-shaped' fetlock joints, no arthritis or inflammation just something he would of been born with and explains his 'funny' walking and wearing his hind hoofs inwards because of this confirmation fault.
He has the start of arthritis in his hocks (right is worse) which vet is certain its due to having the mis shaped fetlock joints causing uneven wear on the hocks. Hock x-rays were clear 12 months ago so just shows how quickly it can form. Stifles, back and higher neck all good.

He does however have arthritis in his lower neck, it didn't look great if I'm honest looking at the x-rays, looked to be quite a bit of arthritis on 2 vertebra. The vet explained to me the x-rays thoroughly, as well as pointing out the spinal cord and that it looks to be ever so slightly it is restricting it. Vet doesn't think its from the kick to the mid neck (as the arthritis is much lower down) but that he could of had a fall or injury before I owned him or even been born with slightly off shaped vertebra which means arthritis can form early.

Vet is certain this explains his 'strange' canter gait and not wanting to go forwards, plus the tripping because the spinal cord is ever so slightly restricted as well as unable to turn in tight circles and not able to work in a outline. The bute wouldn't of helped this either so explains why 4 bute a day made pretty much no difference. The vet described its more a 'mechanical' fault. It explains why he feels worse when asked to work in a outline and why he resists it so much.

He had his right hock injected last month which is the worst side (funnily enough vet had a 'feeling' he had arthritis there) so at least I know thats been done.

He also has slightly abnormal bloods when they tested the muscle enzymes or something, was quite confusing, normal for not in work should be 100 and his was around 500. PSSM are usually in the thousands or even ten thousands so he isn't hugely high but a little elevated. He said that is managed with a high fat diet and lots of turnout.

Vet has given 2 options, both pretty much result in having steriod injections in the neck.

Option 1, turn him away for the winter. Bring him back into work March time, see how he gets on. If no better, consider getting his neck steriod injected then. Vet doesn't think turning away will help significantly but could be worth a try if not wanting to spend £300+ on neck injections right now.

Option 2, Inject his neck now, give him some time off until Christmas time then bring him back to work as neck injections work best after 4-6 weeks and see how he gets on.

I think i'll go for option 2. I've spent so much on investigating I rather inject now and see how we get on rather than turn him away and constantly thinking over the next few months 'will he come right? will he be retired at 9? Arthritis won't suddenly get better turned away, if anything worse as we all know.

If I get his neck injected now at least I know I've tried everything.

Feeling down he has arthritis at only 9 when hes only been into his ridden career a few years but pleased we found the problem. I know many owners/riders would of gone with 'push him through it hes being naughty' so pleased I listened to him and went with my gut. I just hope we can make him more comfortable and even if hes a happy hacker i'll be happy.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

No, hes visiting Sunday and not charging me for it thankfully. He had to shoot off quickly while examining mine as he got a emergency call about a 'swinger' down the road, which (apparently) means a leg swinging. Its their top emergency so he was the closest vet and scrambled to the scene. He called me after to apologize, and explained the poor horse sustained a tragic kick in the field and its hind leg was hanging off, bone completely snapped so he had to rush off and put that to sleep. So upsetting and tragic for that owner, thoughts with them.
.

You sound to have a great vet!


ETA, I've just read your update. I would opt for no.2 too, as you say, arthritis isn't going to get better from resting. And well done for listening to your horse!

 

[milliepops]

everything crossed for the best outcome possible, OP. Well done for pushing for a diagnosis.

 

[MissP]

Try a decent physio or chiro, trainer or other professional who has a very good eye to get a starting point. My chiro and trainer can see gait issues and tightness way better than my vets ever have. That's no slight on the vets - I just think they rely on tests rather than gait issues. At least that might help make a guesstimate of where best to spend your money on a work up

 

[milliepops]

Try a decent physio or chiro, trainer or other professional who has a very good eye to get a starting point. My chiro and trainer can see gait issues and tightness way better than my vets ever have. That's no slight on the vets - I just think they rely on tests rather than gait issues. At least that might help make a guesstimate of where best to spend your money on a work up

Think you need to read to the end of the thread OP has been to vets and had some diagnostics done which sound like they were definitely necessary.

 

[Fiona]

UPDATE 19/11/18
Vet visited and x-rayed pretty much Alfies entire body. He didn't need any sedation and stood like a saint for quite a while, with me holding him and the others holding the x-ray machine parts between his legs, back, neck etc. Vet said what a top little pony. It was almost like he knew we were trying to help him.
Results..
The fetlock x-rays showed he has 'mis-shaped' fetlock joints, no arthritis or inflammation just something he would of been born with and explains his 'funny' walking and wearing his hind hoofs inwards because of this confirmation fault.
He has the start of arthritis in his hocks (right is worse) which vet is certain its due to having the mis shaped fetlock joints causing uneven wear on the hocks. Hock x-rays were clear 12 months ago so just shows how quickly it can form. Stifles, back and higher neck all good.

He does however have arthritis in his lower neck, it didn't look great if I'm honest looking at the x-rays, looked to be quite a bit of arthritis on 2 vertebra. The vet explained to me the x-rays thoroughly, as well as pointing out the spinal cord and that it looks to be ever so slightly it is restricting it. Vet doesn't think its from the kick to the mid neck (as the arthritis is much lower down) but that he could of had a fall or injury before I owned him or even been born with slightly off shaped vertebra which means arthritis can form early.

Vet is certain this explains his 'strange' canter gait and not wanting to go forwards, plus the tripping because the spinal cord is ever so slightly restricted as well as unable to turn in tight circles and not able to work in a outline. The bute wouldn't of helped this either so explains why 4 bute a day made pretty much no difference. The vet described its more a 'mechanical' fault. It explains why he feels worse when asked to work in a outline and why he resists it so much.

He had his right hock injected last month which is the worst side (funnily enough vet had a 'feeling' he had arthritis there) so at least I know thats been done.

He also has slightly abnormal bloods when they tested the muscle enzymes or something, was quite confusing, normal for not in work should be 100 and his was around 500. PSSM are usually in the thousands or even ten thousands so he isn't hugely high but a little elevated. He said that is managed with a high fat diet and lots of turnout.

Vet has given 2 options, both pretty much result in having steriod injections in the neck.

Option 1, turn him away for the winter. Bring him back into work March time, see how he gets on. If no better, consider getting his neck steriod injected then. Vet doesn't think turning away will help significantly but could be worth a try if not wanting to spend £300+ on neck injections right now.

Option 2, Inject his neck now, give him some time off until Christmas time then bring him back to work as neck injections work best after 4-6 weeks and see how he gets on.

I think i'll go for option 2. I've spent so much on investigating I rather inject now and see how we get on rather than turn him away and constantly thinking over the next few months 'will he come right? will he be retired at 9? Arthritis won't suddenly get better turned away, if anything worse as we all know.

If I get his neck injected now at least I know I've tried everything.

Feeling down he has arthritis at only 9 when hes only been into his ridden career a few years but pleased we found the problem. I know many owners/riders would of gone with 'push him through it hes being naughty' so pleased I listened to him and went with my gut. I just hope we can make him more comfortable and even if hes a happy hacker i'll be happy.

I'd go for number 2....

Well done for persevering OP, and good luck x x

Keep us posted.

Fiona

 

[Hormonal Filly]

We ran general bloods last week as he was very down and depressed, the day after I started giving him turmeric. Within 2 days he was cantering off when I put him out in the field and trotting next to me to come in (was dragging before then) and the bloods came back yesterday all good. Vet thinks it could of been a virus but who knows if the turmeric has helped or not. No way of saying but its nice to see him happy.

Hes going to horsey hospital in a weeks time to have C6 and C7 medicated. Only 2 vets can do it, ones the director of the vets and saving nearly £100 going to the hospital rather than them visiting the yard (and a month wait list if its a yard job as the 2 vets are busy)

Fingers crossed. I am thinking of going for a small ride around the hay field sunday on a long rein, just because he hasn't been ridden in weeks and the vets said it won't do any harm.