Dressage Something to think about whilst the storm rages

I saw it on Facebook and some of it certainly made sense. But I lost the overall meaning ie so people need to ride better...but then want? In what way are people not riding better? What should they do to address that? So for me it explained the issue, but didn’t give me anything I could use on terms of possible solutions. But it’s only a demo note so I just took it as an interesting and thought provoking bit of commentary.

The bit about the front end bites, the back end kicks and the middle is uncomfortable, amused me!
 
Bernster said:
I saw it on Facebook and some of it certainly made sense. But I lost the overall meaning ie so people need to ride better...but then want? In what way are people not riding better? What should they do to address that? So for me it explained the issue, but didn’t give me anything I could use on terms of possible solutions. But it’s only a demo note so I just took it as an interesting and thought provoking bit of commentary.

The bit about the front end bites, the back end kicks and the middle is uncomfortable, amused me!
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I took it as meaning that often riders are looking for reasons why their horse isn't going as well as they would like/ not winning or getting 70% and in most cases they just need to learn to ride better.Perhaps this resonates particularly well with me because I can look back at previous horses and I now understand that they went as well as I was riding them and with a better rider the horse would have been so much better. I think this is why I love to see my own horse ridden by a professional rider as it gives me a real insight into what the horse is capable of. I find this hugely inspiring. The bit about bravery also resonates as I definitely play safe. The first time Rose gave me a really good powerful canter, I struggled with it in fact, once Rose took the handbrake off and started working through from behind properly and was truly in front of the leg, I just thought OMG I can't ride this I'm not good enough!
 
oldie48 said:
I took it as meaning that often riders are looking for reasons why their horse isn't going as well as they would like/ not winning or getting 70% and in most cases they just need to learn to ride better
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^this
I think we probably all do it - you can buy the better saddle, get the right saddle pad, the reins that are comfortable, get the bit fit folk out, optimise the horse's diet etc etc but the bit that still needs doing is to learn how to ride better ;)

that's the sad uncomfortable truth! TBH with latest project it has been uppermost in my mind because I think he probably would like a different bit eventually and I certainly would like to trade up his rather old Albion with holes in the seat, and I am still figuring out how to feed him... but I am certain that the thing that will make the biggest difference is for me to just ride him better. I keep promising to try out a fairfax bridle on Kira but same thing really, it would maybe make 0.25% difference to our scores but if I can remember to sit on my bum during changes that might deliver 10x that! :p
 
Universal truth: an inadequate rider with all the very best horse/saddle/bit/bridle/feed/supplements/physio/etc./etc. will still be an inadequate rider. The very good rider will be able to ride any horse very well no matter what the kit. It's just a variation on "all the gear, no idea" perhaps?
 
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Very true words, I think I'd love a lesson with him if he wasn't so far away!

The other thing I've found is that in order to 'ride better' I also have to 'be fitter', which is always depressing when I just want to curl up hibernate and eat my own body weight in chocolate lol! I've found that the stronger I am, the more supple I am, (whispers, the slimmer I am :oops:), the easier I can sit in the saddle and influence the horse. I do think sometimes riders spend so long focusing on the horses diet, fitness, tack, etc, we do often neglect to work on ourselves at the same time.

It's something that's been playing on my mind, as the dressage judge stopped us last time out to tell me how talented Skylla is for dressage. I replied that she didn't have the temperament as she is too hot and buzzy and jumping suits her more as she gets to go more and be less contained, but thinking about it, it's not Skylla at fault it is me. I just can't ride her well enough to unlock her dressage potential, she is so quick and reactive and I'm too slow and ambiguous I cannot react as fast as she does to maintain the lightness whilst containing her energy into useful stuff, slightly depressing really but at least Skylla doesn't really care...
 
Hmm ok, but isnt that just stating the obvious? I don’t think riders are under a misunderstanding that their horses will go better if they were better riders. Are they?

Nothing wrong in stating the obvious ofc!
 
Bernster said:
Hmm ok, but isnt that just stating the obvious? I don’t think riders are under a misunderstanding that their horses will go better if they were better riders. Are they?

Nothing wrong in stating the obvious ofc!
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Um... I don't know.
I'm not a riding instructor but I have sat in on plenty of lessons where people talked about whether the horse needed the physio or another bit or whatever, where the answer probably IS that those things wouldn't hurt but the thing that will make the long term improvement is for the rider to get better at what they are doing. I would imagine if you teach full time you come across zillions of those occasions.

And then I also remind myself that I'm in an echo chamber because all of my horsey friends are people that already have regular training, are really trying hard to improve their riding etc and know how important it is n order to progress. But there are many many more people who think "well I can ride so I don't need lessons" but then complain that their horse leans on the bit or is behind the leg or won't go in an outline consistently etc.

So I think that some riders know that their horses would go better if they rode better, and some who think the horse has a duty to perform for them, and yet others think that if they just found the right equipment then the problems would all be solved.
 
Having been, at times, a fearful rider what AK says about people not being brave enough to ride really resonates with me. I am hugely thankful that my current horse has helped me to overcome the very strong desire to ride with my safety uppermost in my mind rather than accepting that safety on a horse relies more on our skill in riding, our horsemanship and our understanding.

My current chap has been such a wonderfully polite gentleman but with oodles of spirit, enthusiasm, self preservation and lovely, lovely paces that I have had to embrace 'riding' so much more in the last few years. That is a revelation after several years of defensive, fearful sitting in the saddle. Very sadly I see many of my friends (understandably in some situations) riding more defensively than skilfully and I do now see that this is a negative and rather self-fulfilling prophecy. Ironically this has also meant that I rather lost interest in dressage (though never say never) as I didn't really enjoy 'that' environment. For many of my friends the fearful relationship with their horses means that things are often 'awkward', unharmonious or engaged with a repetitive cycle of bringing in 'experts' to help resolve what is actually both an internal dialogue around fear and an external and sometimes co-conspiratorial lack of 'riding'. I am also aware that my OH, who has never had a riding lesson in his life, manages to ride almost anything quite effortlessly. He doesn't actually have as much riding skill as he might believe (not being mean here!) but he does have bravery, self-belief, sympathy and excellent natural balance. Sorry for this ramble but it was thought provoking to read AK's ideas!!
 
MP - that makes sense. I like to think of myself as open minded but I think you’re right about the echo chamber thing. I have regular lessons and am surrounded by people wanting to improve and work on their wn riding as well as working on their horse, so to me his words seem like a really obvious statement. But what I’m not factoring in would be his/others experience (presumably) of riders trying to fix the horse but looking at anything except their riding.
 
Work is boring today so keep returning to this thread :p
palo1 said:
Having been, at times, a fearful rider what AK says about people not being brave enough to ride really resonates with me. I am hugely thankful that my current horse has helped me to overcome the very strong desire to ride with my safety uppermost in my mind rather than accepting that safety on a horse relies more on our skill in riding, our horsemanship and our understanding.
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ain't that the truth. I have had a massive confidence wobble on current project, it sort of blindsided me because I would not normally describe myself as a nervous rider but something got under my skin a few weeks back and I have really struggled to stop riding defensively and trust myself a bit more, to give the horse the leadership he needs.
Weirdly my other horse is far more difficult, actually quite unseating and prone to extreme rowdiness but I can laugh off her antics and tap into my *riding* ability with her. it's so odd to go from one extreme to the other in the time it takes to swap tack onto the second horse.

I have always said that I would not want to have only a project to ride, but always try to bring one up behind an established horse, and this is one of the reasons why. I think while K was off and I only had Darcy to ride, i got in to a bit of a defensive habit!

Bernster I was alerted to the echo chamber thing while stewarding at a RC show a while back. It's hard to put it into words without sounding like a snob o_O but I had sort of forgotten about all the people out there with horses that weren't spending their whole life agonising over how to ride better !
 
Bernster said:
Hmm ok, but isnt that just stating the obvious? I don’t think riders are under a misunderstanding that their horses will go better if they were better riders. Are they?

Nothing wrong in stating the obvious ofc!
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I think a lot of riders are tbh. How many times do you hear/read 'He won't............' The reason he won't is that the rider isn't asking in a way that the horse understands, or possibly is actually asking for something else and the horse is giving that, rather than what the rider intended.
 
Bernster said:
Hmm ok, but isnt that just stating the obvious? I don’t think riders are under a misunderstanding that their horses will go better if they were better riders. Are they?

Nothing wrong in stating the obvious ofc!
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Well I do know people who think they need a better horse in order to get better marks even though it's pretty obvious their horse is more than capable of getting the marks with a better rider.
 
Does he train numpties? :D That all made sense - no.6 particularly resonated, as I have a horse that essentially taught me how to ride him. The difference once I'd cottoned on to what he wanted/how he wanted to be communicated with was amazing. My approach was to assume I was in the wrong and work from there...

As to the riding better, I see a significant number of people focussing on the horse rather than looking at what they're doing or thinking they need to be a better rider. Especially on social media...
 
SpringArising said:
My favourite quote is the one that's something like 'You don't need a £10,000 horse - you need a £1,000 horse and £9,000 worth of lessons'.

It's amazing how you can ride one horse and feel like a pro, then get on something else and think 'Jesus, can I even ride?!'
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I think this is especially true of the one horse owner, particularly if having had a horse for a long time you then have to buy something different. Although you carry some experience with you from one horse to the next, every horse presents it's own challenges but an experienced trainer/rider has seen it all before
 
oldie48 said:
‘If you cannot get a flight animal to go forward then something is wrong as that is what they do.’
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But they very often do it by wheeling around and going in the opposite direction.

Some horses shut down mentally under pressure and will never go forwards in a dressage arena. They are often, rightly imo, sold to do a different job.


, we just need to ride better, or have his back X rayed. I think riding better will be cheaper.’
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Harm from x raying a sound back- nil

Harm from carrying on riding a willing horse trying to tell you things aren't right - immense, sometimes irreversible.


Eric added that he sees far too often horses hacking and not paying attention on the aids. The next day they are asked to concentrate. The thought process of every time you ride the horse it should be on duty is the right one.
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Horses are smart enough to know the difference between a hack on a long rein and working in an arena.


we have spent 20 years developing {dressage} into a sport that we can no longer actually tolerate
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What does this even mean?

Standards of riding in the UK over the fifty years I've been doing it have risen and risen. Tests that I won with twenty years ago wouldn't get a placing now.



We have to find a way of getting to people riding correctly before they qualify for this championship and that championship and thinking they have a right to ride at the Nationals. We have told too many people they have a right to ride at the National championships and instead we should be telling them that you need to ride better and when they can do that they will get to the Nationals.’
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Ditto the answer above, re rising standards. If the standard of riding isn't good enough at the Nationals, in your opinion, then get the qualifying rules changed.

But with the competition as it stands, the top x% of horse/rider combinations made it there on merit. Surely other people shouldn't be running them down when they are, by definition, the best in the country to have even got there?

.
 
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oldie48 said:
Well I do know people who think they need a better horse in order to get better marks even though it's pretty obvious their horse is more than capable of getting the marks with a better rider.
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Oh god, this, this, this!!! I sadly often feel a bit despairing over friends and acquaintances buying up really 'good' horses (quite often this just means huge/impressive looking and expensive) only to find that they are frankly frightened of them or both horse and rider end up confused, disappointed, defensive etc which results in calling in endless 'experts' (and sometimes snake oil salesmen too). Meanwhile there are brilliant, perfectly ordinary horses doing amazingly well with committed, improving riders. I hate that aspect of the equestrian experience - looks and status signalling are, in places, so much more valued than graft, skill and humility. I am probably and have certainly been jealous in the past but have, as I have got older, learnt to accept that I need to work really hard at the 'getting better' bit and that I will never have enough money to buy any kind of horse that will instantly impress other people!! However, I have also learnt to see that I am very lucky to have the horses I do, to have found the right kind of training for me and to know that almost any horse will probably have enough 'talent' for me!! I guess, looking forward that should make future horse shopping quite simple really...:D:D
 
Interesting. Although my boy does have one sidedness to deal with, most of the time I assume he’s doing exactly what I’m asking him to do, wonkiness and all. I might not be asking for the right thing in the right way, but he’s just reflecting back what he’s getting from me!
 
milliepops said:
Work is boring today so keep returning to this thread :p


ain't that the truth. I have had a massive confidence wobble on current project, it sort of blindsided me because I would not normally describe myself as a nervous rider but something got under my skin a few weeks back and I have really struggled to stop riding defensively and trust myself a bit more, to give the horse the leadership he needs.
Weirdly my other horse is far more difficult, actually quite unseating and prone to extreme rowdiness but I can laugh off her antics and tap into my *riding* ability with her. it's so odd to go from one extreme to the other in the time it takes to swap tack onto the second horse.

I have always said that I would not want to have only a project to ride, but always try to bring one up behind an established horse, and this is one of the reasons why. I think while K was off and I only had Darcy to ride, i got in to a bit of a defensive habit!

Bernster I was alerted to the echo chamber thing while stewarding at a RC show a while back. It's hard to put it into words without sounding like a snob o_O but I had sort of forgotten about all the people out there with horses that weren't spending their whole life agonising over how to ride better !
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What you say about giving the horse leadership seems hugely important and really good trainers are able to help riders develop this I think. It seems so vital a responsibility in the rider to achieve anything really: especially that clear, sympathetic and forgiving kind of leadership that understands that stuff happens, horses and riders make mistakes etc but that it is essential to deal with that and then emotionally 'move on'. I do think a lot of riders are not good leaders for themselves if you know what I mean - we can be very unclear about what we want to do, how well, when etc and then fiddle and muddle and finally over-think or over-work something after a mistake. I suspect that we can confuse all of that with working hard at 'getting better'! Of course it's easy to say this and harder to do when you worry that the consequences of 'pushing it too far' or something might result in injury or further 'problems'. But calmness, clarity, understanding and communicating very clearly and precisely are things that most of us need help with I reckon. I say this as a 'rider' that often allows my horse to sort problems for me of course but then I have worked hard and got much better at the 'trust' , balance and 'relaxed' aspects of improved riding!!:D:D Still much work to be done on precision and 'quality' elements!! This makes me think that as we have scales of training for horses we should also have 'scales of riding' for riders - but what would we start with?! :)
 
ycbm said:
But they very often do it by wheeling around and going in the opposite direction.

Some horses shut down mentally under pressure and will never go forwards in a dressage arena. They are often, rightly imo, sold to do a different job.




Harm from x raying a sound back- nil

Harm from carrying on riding a willing horse trying to tell you things aren't right - immense, sometimes irreversible.




Horses are smart enough to know the difference between a hack on a long rein and working in an arena.




What does this even mean?

Standards of riding in the UK over the fifty years I've been doing it have risen and risen. Tests that I won with twenty years ago wouldn't get a placing now.






Ditto the answer above, re rising standards. If the standard of riding isn't good enough at the Nationals, in your opinion, then get the qualifying rules changed.

But with the competition as it stands, the top x% of horse/rider combinations made it there on merit. Surely other people shouldn't be running them down when they are, by definition, the best in the country to have even got there?

.
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Well this is the issue with things being taken out of context. This was presented at the International Eventing Forum so when it comes to forwardness, for example, the horses being addressed are - in general - fit, blood horses in good condition. Not the PSSM cob down the road, or the 20 year old with spavins, or the young horse with sore feet. Speaking generally, they ought to be forward thinking and they ought to be fairly easy to get forward going.

I also don't take it to mean that a horse that has something wrong with it should be ignored. But students of this trainer would recognise the phrase "he can't only have kissing spines by the door" if there's a horse that naps by the entrance to the arena and the rider is imagining the worse and going off buying new saddles and getting all the physios in the county to visit to try and tackle the problem. As riders we all owe it to our horses to try and pick up on physical problems quickly but there won't be a physical cause for most training issues, common things are common & all that.it's common for riders to let horses take over in scary situations and that develops into napping, for instance.

I would argue that an established horse might be able to differentiate between hacking on the buckle and arena work, but if you are bringing on a young horse (the horse I saw in the video relating to this write up was green and learning) then they tend to progress faster if you ride them the same way every day.

again I wouldn't want to put words into Adam's mouth but in relation to the sport we can no longer tolerate... I would hazard a guess that this is addressing all the people who find competitive dressage to not be something they want to watch or partake in. There are plenty on this forum. they all have different reasons - rollkur, poor riding, horses with bonkers paces, perception that the wrong thing is being rewarded, being some examples - I'm seeing him tomorrow so I can ask what he meant!

And I don't think he was saying that there was an issue with the Charlottes, Carls, Lotties, Lauras, Alices and all the other top riders at the nationals. they clearly deserve to be there. But there are plenty of people who moan that there is no point going to regionals (for example) because they aren't going to be in the prizes and it's all unfair for anyone who isn't a Charlotte. So much complaining about the structure of BD and whether it was fair to Silver riders who couldn't get to the nationals and so on.
well, there's no point in me going, if I looked at it that way, but I know that if I wanted to be in with a chance of going to the nationals I would have to ride a lot, lot better than I do! I am quite happy to have lots of opportunities bumbling along at my level and I will happily take my win at the Native Championships but i'm under no illusions that I would not stand up very well against the riders at the "Proper Nationals" :p
 
There is a lot to be said for the fact that poor riding and management practices can easily create physical problems in the horse, something that no one seems to want to talk about in the horse world. So ‘ride better’ and maybe you won’t get the problems in the first place.

And hacking... why would you not hack on the aids? Working in a correct outline is desirable because it redistributes the weight off the forelegs to protect them, rounds the back to keep the spine and back muscles healthy and provides the rider with more control of the paces and the horse’s exact movements. My horses learn the use of all that lateral work out hacking, and for collection to travel downhill and on wetter ground. We stretch out for fun and sometimes race up a hill, but always mindful that they are carrying the extra weight of a rider.

As a bonus result, there is no argument in the school or at a show: head down as I pick up the reins, get on with it. If they are used to doing that in a gale, in torrential rain, with sheep being herded in the next door field and shooting a field over, doing so at a competition is suddenly easy.

But we should ride ‘correctly’ to benefit the horse physically, to help it carry our weight and stay healthy, not just to look fancy in a dressage arena. If the way you ride does NOT benefit your horse physically, you definitely need to learn to ride better!!!

I see trainers get on and ‘saw’ to get the head down. None of them are ever getting on a horse of mine! No need, seriously. No need to ride it with its head behind the vertical and its legs trailing behind, either. True submission and a correct way of going requires gentler hands and more finely tuned aids. It is easy to force the head down and in, even to do well competitively like that. Harder to ride sensitively enough to get a willing horse in harmony.
 
I am always interested in what top trainers have to say, even if I don't always agree, rightly or wrongly. I don't like to think horses are stupid, as someone else said they are different, and have different motivations. After all it is humans destroying this planet, not animals who only take as much as they need and move on unlike humans who take every last bit. I am in no doubt my riding needs to improve, and that is what I am constantly striving to do. I would not be happy for a trainer to just state I need to ride better. I need to know, what I need to do and how to achieve it. There are a lot of incredibly unhelpful comments out there such as use your seat, etc. How, is what I want to know, which is why I like 'ride with your mind'. There is no emphasis on getting the head in, etc. It is all on helping the rider, which in turn enables the horse to work correctly in self carriage when they ride correctly enough for the horse to oblige. I would have loved to have seen a sympathetic GP rider, ride the TB I had on loan. Whilst I know it wouldn't have turned him into a GP horse, it would have been amazing to have seen what he would have been capable of in just one ride.
 
I agree with a lot of what he says, but as with most of these things, I do find trainers at demos do tend to go on a bit (though I guess that’s what people pay for!) and perhaps it doesn’t translate as well in text on a forum.

I think we should all aim to improve ourselves and we must never stop learning. I’m a great believer that, if we believe it is our right to sit on horses and ride them, we owe it to them to make that experience the best that it can be for them and that means striving to be a better rider so that they can do the job that we ask of them without causing them discomfort, stress or harm.

On the subject of training. I am someone without a regular trainer. That’s not because I think I am the best I can be, or that I don’t need one, but simply because my health means that I just cannot physically manage it. When I ride on my own, I take regular walk breaks, or I might go out one day and realise I’m in too much pain to do much at all. If I had a lesson planned, I wouldn’t be able to do that, or I would feel it a waste of time (the trainers too) and money.

I’ve always had good feel on a horse. As a child I used to get frustrated because I knew what was underneath me didn’t always feel right but I had no idea quite what it was, or how to change it. I could recognise that a horse wasn’t straight and through, but I couldn’t put my finger on it at such a young age and I obviously didn’t realise what ‘through’ meant, but I felt it. I just knew it didn’t feel right. All through my teens, I felt that I wasn’t getting the answers I needed off instructors. They would tell me that everything looked fine, but it didn’t feel right to me. Then I discovered biomechanics in my twenties and it suddenly all made sense to me and, as a result, I started to be able to make those changes needed underneath me. So a lot of my learning has actually been through books, studying biomechanics and the anatomy of the horse, watching endless videos of different horses moving and riding as many different horses as I can. One of my best friends is, without doubt, the most talented rider I know. Lessons I have had off him have hands down been more productive than lessons I have had off very successful riders.
 
ycbm said:
Horses are smart enough to know the difference between a hack on a long rein and working in an arena. - its my observation that riders slop along out hacking and then expect the horse to go well in the arena not realising there is a correlation about everytime you ride. If you want a horse to go in a good contact then it needs to be worked on.

Ditto the answer above, re rising standards. If the standard of riding isn't good enough at the Nationals, in your opinion, then get the qualifying rules changed - its more about there being a championship for everyone and people expecting a championship for themselves.

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I read the comments first on a Facebook post and then have read through this discussion over the last day.
One first reading I agreed with all his comments and to be honest reading those if I lived local to him I would be tempted to take up dressage again if I could have him as my instructor.
Reading this post hasn't changed that either. I'm also reading this as if they were comments being made to me and I would say they are all fair and true.
 
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