Sorry..Parelli again! Do you think some of it is cruel?

Parker79

Parker79

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Hi all

Started going through the Parelli Level 1 disk set, on DVD 3 now, finding it a little upsetting in places!

Interested in peoples opinions? the metal on the end of the 12 foot line is designed to 'crack' the horse under the jaw.

Interested in all opinions, haven't made my mind up yet.
 
Cruel, pointless, domination of the horse, total rip off and quite disgusting. Even the worst road racing People of a travelling minority treat their horses better IMHO.
 
There are ways of doing Parelli, and there are WAYS of doing Parelli ;)

I was taught the 7 games by a Parelli student who was brought up on a ranch in Montana, and had horses in her blood going back generations, so I had that experience thrown in as well as just reading it/watching it.

Despite what the marketing says, it isn't something you can watch on a DVD and then go out and do.

The timing you need to pull it off correctly is something, I believe, that can only be taught hands on, and with a lot of practice.

None of the horses I practiced on were switched off, or robotic; and they all had enough cheek to ensure I had good lessons, so that I learned something.

It has always horrified me that people use the clip to whack their horses under the jaw - that is WELL past level 4 touching, and that will do the opposite of what you want (clacking the horse under the jaw will make them fling their head up - the waggle of the rope is meant to transmit to the nose knots, which will cause the horse to tuck their head in when they back up)

I wouldn't use Parelli as the sole item in my "toolbox" but I certainly wouldn't hesitate to use elements of the 7 games.

MontanaApril-May2005079.jpg
 
Casey76 said:
It has always horrified me that people use the clip to whack their horses under the jaw - that is WELL past level 4 touching, and that will do the opposite of what you want (clacking the horse under the jaw will make them fling their head up - the waggle of the rope is meant to transmit to the nose knots, which will cause the horse to tuck their head in when they back up)

MontanaApril-May2005079.jpg
Click to expand...

Have you ever watched Pat Parelli work with a horse? I have (away from an audience and in front of an audience on several occasions). I'm pleased that your friend at least taught you not to smack the horses around the face with the clip, however I can say categorically that Pat Parelli and his wife and many of his instructors will regularly use a "phase 4" that does just that. They really don't have a problem with it.

Cut the clips off, that will bring about a great change for the better, or buy ropes without clips.
 
There are worse things you could do to your horse, and admittedly all the Parelli obsessives I know look after their horses very well.

However it wouldn't be something I'd do with mine, and I do question some of the things they do. There is one that spends THREE HOURS at a time in the school, 6 days a week. That is not ok, even if you are waving a string at him instead of poking him with spurs. However she is the sort of person that would spend 3 hours in there if she was into dressage, or clicker training or something!
 
I was taught the 7 games and went to a weekend thing where I was taught how to do everything properly. Not once did I hit the horse with the clip. I would use the friendly game definitely, though everything else was pretty pointless and the horse didn't change. Mind you, We also tried Mont Roberts method and that didn't change her either, nor did the more conventional methods we use nowadays, with the whole love the horse and the whole try and tell them off when they do it.... The mare was agriphobic (sp?)... so she was sent back to the seller because I lost all my confidence with her and was scared to lead her to the paddock (she used to just turn and gallop off and if you didn't let her go she'd rear up at you)

So I've tried most methods, and would mix them all in, because there's bit's of each that are good and bits of each that are bad :)
 
Thanks everyone, luckily I did not buy the set, my friend gave it to me to look at.

I did question whether it is right to teach any of this via a DVD, I think each horse is very different and using any extreme methods should surely be taught by a qualified instructor and applied to an individual horse. I think I am simply in shock about the whole Parelli hype!

I have seen many short Pat Parelli demos and have been very impressed. I assumed I would feel the same about the Parelli 'programme' but instead I feel like I have been lulled into a false sense of Parelli being 'kind'!!

I feel pretty horrified, I always worked of the principal that ''a little knowledge can be dangerous'', I think that anyone copying methods on this DVD with 'little knowledge' could be putting their horse through HELL!

I have bought a 2yo who is very kind and trusting ....I intend to do lots of groundwork this year, I think I will steer clear of the DVD and work with my instructor to try and maintain his trust instead of whacking him under the jaw with a clip!

thanks again
 
Parker79 said:
Hi all

Started going through the Parelli Level 1 disk set, on DVD 3 now, finding it a little upsetting in places!

Interested in peoples opinions? the metal on the end of the 12 foot line is designed to 'crack' the horse under the jaw.

Interested in all opinions, haven't made my mind up yet.
Click to expand...
Yes its cruel you cant turn on H&C tv without something about parelli this or that, you know there are better trainers and some fantastic programs but we are tortured with this rubbish, there marketing machine is strong there horsemanship is weak dont belive the hype but make up your own mind, maybe some of it will work for you and your horses.......
 
I know I'll prob get jumped on as usual for posting this but I feel it needs to be said as usual.
I bought my pony Herbie from a parelli home. When I got him he was agressive and dangorous to the point he would have probably killed someone sooner or later!!!! :eek: I do not believe he was like this before his last owner bought him. She sold him to me for £550 inclu all tack and rugs. 6 months before selling him to me she had paid £1500 for just the pony :eek: Noone would pay that much for a pony as messed up as poor Herbie was.
Heres a little video of our journy together so far
[youtube]MfFtecxiKp0[/youtube]

You CAN achive a true bond in other ways :)
[youtube]itkg_b1V2UM[/youtube]

[youtube]bFxUNgKDCR4[/youtube]

I have known Parelli work with some horses but it will not work with all and Herbs is the proof in that :( In the wrong hands Parelli is VERY crule. Parts of it can be used to great effect without being crule.
Good luck with your youngster whichever path you choose to follow.
 
Boooooooooooring. Been done to death so many times but for what it's worth. NO I do not think it's cruel.

Any form of horsemanship carried out incorrectly or by idiots who dont have a clue what they are doing can be cruel.

I hate Rolkur.......................................
 
Havent done it.......paid £130 for an hour of a lady who was trained by monty robberts only for her to tell me she was dangerous and just put her in a feild........6 months later a lady introduced us to a guy named terry buxton and we have come on fab. He has a Facebook group look him up. X
 
Parelli is extremely cruel, it is a system based on the systematic destruction of your horse's personality, nature and natural instincts. The system is based on complete dominance over your horse which you achieve by playing their good cop/bad cop games.

It destroys horses spirits by being so inconsistent (i.e carrot sticks are used to both stroke and strike). Anyone who has come across someone who is nice on minute and nasty the next will understand how you can never know where you stand. It is far easier to feel secure with someone who is constantly nasty!

What you are watching in that atrocious DVD is what the have deemed the pinnacle of their training regime, a shining example of excellence.

People always argue that there are ways of practising Parelli that aren't cruel, but if you are practising Parelli as the founders practise it it is incredibly cruel.

Parelli and Rollkur are one of a kind really, both destroy natural instinct and create an almost robotic horse who more often than not displays signs of extreme learned helplessness.
 
Any system can be cruel in the wrong hands. Some parts of Parelli can be applied kindly and make a lot of sense. Other parts of it are too harsh for many.
It's always nice to hear about re-habbed horses, but honestly, for every "Parelli trained" horse that has gone wrong through inexperience or incompetence, there are 100's that have gone wrong without that label attached. Simple statistics. Even the number of "problem horse" threads here support that.
 
Actually Op, I thought I'd come back and save you a bit of time. Here is how the thread will go:
TeamBarney will weigh in with all Parelli is abuse and look at the Catwalk incident for proof.
Some Parelli people will join in to say that when people hit their horses with clips they aren't "doing Parelli" correctly (in spite of the evidence on the instructional DVD's).
I will join into the fray because I can't sit on my hands any longer and try to be reasonable and balanced, but say cut the clips off your ropes. Or turn them round so that the clip is in your hand when you work.
By now many will be calling for popcorn and settling down in comfy chairs ready to enjoy the bunfight.
Then of course, the "It's Too Commercial" gang will say what they always say about that.
Parelli people will be responding and saying that "you" don't know what you're talking about.
So of course I'll stop working (as I have now!) and take that bait.
If we're lucky the word "bond" will be introduced along the way and we'll start discussing that it's not the only way to build one. Not that Parelli has every claimed that it is of course... in fact, he doesn't make a big deal of bonds at all. (Unless it's in private and then that's probably something he and Linda like to keep to themselves).
Anecdotes about horses ruined by Parelli, stupid Parelli people on yards will abound, overlooking possibly the fact that Parelli people, stupid or otherwise, are very much a minority.
The Common Sense Crowd will of course be well represented. These are people who say it's just common sense (obviously some are just born with it) and they will also say it's nothing new. Well yes, Parelli says "This is so old it's new".
Oh, and if we're really lucky, we'll have a smattering of behaviourists saying that the Parelli behaviour theories are rubbish (I tend to agree with them there). Definitions of reinforcement will follow if we're lucky, and if we're really lucky the wise and interesting Fburton will put in a carefully phrased thread.
Mustn't forget that by now, if it hasn't happened already, some will be saying "I prefer Monty/Max/Mike Peace" etc.

Have I missed everything? Have I saved us a bit of time?
 
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wot tinypony said

"in fact, he doesn't make a big deal of bonds at all. (Unless it's in private and then that's probably something he and Linda like to keep to themselves)."

:D:D:D snort :D

(fwiw, I think parelli is a mixture of the insane and the obvious, often practiced by people too scared to ride their horses. But perhaps my experience has been biased, who would know)
 
JFTD said:
wot tinypony said

"in fact, he doesn't make a big deal of bonds at all. (Unless it's in private and then that's probably something he and Linda like to keep to themselves)."

:D:D:D snort :D

(fwiw, I think parelli is a mixture of the insane and the obvious, often practiced by people too scared to ride their horses. But perhaps my experience has been biased, who would know)
Click to expand...

Exactly that, but with a few extra snorts of laughter and a snurtle too.
 
I was a dedicated Parelli student for some years, and still come in the "nh" camp. I love riding and everything else you can do with your horse.
Glad that gave some people a little grin. Now I must return to typing boring minutes. Someone kick me off if you see me here again in the next couple of hours!!
 
Tinypony said:
Actually Op, I thought I'd come back and save you a bit of time. Here is how the thread will go:
QUOTE]

:D For once I actually read all the way to the end.

Tinypony you missed out one sector, those that do this:


and then :


and finally this:


To answer the question I'll quote Tic Tac as I agree

"... but for what it's worth. NO I do not think it's cruel.

Any form of horsemanship carried out incorrectly or by idiots who dont have a clue what they are doing can be cruel.

I hate Rolkur....................................... "
Click to expand...
 
whats wrong with good old fashioned horsemanship, seen a lot of people try to copy the experts without the training and it just messe with horses heads, also when someone tells you that they can get there horse from walk to canter on the ground but not when riding them, so what, when would you ever need to do that unless you do vaulting or run a circus!
 
vanessa roberts said:
also all the people i know that try these methods are actually not that keen/scared off riding their horses
Click to expand...

Vanessa, I think you need to get out more. Or, seriously, I think the thing is that once Parelli people get good (and other NH people for that matter), you don't realise that they are "Parelli people".

TeamBarney, no, never forget Barney, or the poor one eyed TB. But... we are predictable aren't we?

p.s. My printer is jammed, my excuse for coming back!!
 
Tinypony said:
TeamBarney, no, never forget Barney, or the poor one eyed TB. But... we are predictable aren't we?
Click to expand...

Barney was the one eyed tb! and my reply was meant in a light hearted fashion( hence the sticky out tongue), as I presumed your original response to be, perhaps I got the wrong end of the (carrot) stick ;)
 
team barney said:
Don't forget Barney, the little grey Arabian, Trumpet and the horses used for RTTH and IAW, it wasn't just Catwalk you know :p
Click to expand...
Or Sage, the needle-shy mare.

Savvy Club DVD (May 2006)
"Needle Shy Demonstration" (57 min.)
with Pat Parelli, Jesse, Karen, Cash and Sage

In this demonstration Pat help's Karen's mare, Sage, with her dramatic claustrophobia and fear of needles.

While riding Cash, Pat plays the Seven Games with Sage to develop trust, leadership and expose Sage's deep fear of confinement.

This demonstration is not intended to teach the techniques for dealing with this type of problem. It is to expose how deep and severe it can be for some horses plus show the Level of savvy required to address it safely for both horse and human.

Quite a lot of the demonstration time was spent talking about how troubled the mare was - although that wasn't really in evidence from her behaviour in the demo. Only a little bit at the end showed any handling involving a needle and that was the guy Jesse being instructed on how to put a needle in the neck without her noticing, which was judged to be a successful outcome.

Pat used the analogy of training soldiers going into war by exposing them to more explosions in war games than they would encounter in any actual battle. "We gotta try to get her used to some things way beyond... this little needle shot thing..."

So Pat proceeded to expose the mare to some rather rough treatment designed, in his words, to make needles seem tame in comparison. This included some ponying in which the mare was hauled around a few times and struggled to maintain her footing, and roping a hindleg resulting in the mare double-barrelling over and over again to try and escape from the discomfort.

It seemed to me that Pat talked the horse's problems into something more than they were - an exaggeration the owner went along with at the time. There wasn't anything that unusual or extreme about Sage's confinement issues, or indeed about her needle-shyness.

At no point were more enlightened methods such as progressive desensitization or counter-conditioning ever mentioned, either as a potential solution or as something that had been tried and failed.

One person commented:

"I've seen Pat's needle-shy demo video, and I really, really disliked it. (I've passed Parelli Level 2.)

A lot of Parelli people didn't like it at all, including the owner of the horse who claimed the session set her horse back significantly."
 
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