Sorry..Parelli again! Do you think some of it is cruel?

Casey76 said:
There are ways of doing Parelli, and there are WAYS of doing Parelli ;)

I was taught the 7 games by a Parelli student who was brought up on a ranch in Montana, and had horses in her blood going back generations, so I had that experience thrown in as well as just reading it/watching it.

Despite what the marketing says, it isn't something you can watch on a DVD and then go out and do.

The timing you need to pull it off correctly is something, I believe, that can only be taught hands on, and with a lot of practice.

None of the horses I practiced on were switched off, or robotic; and they all had enough cheek to ensure I had good lessons, so that I learned something.

It has always horrified me that people use the clip to whack their horses under the jaw - that is WELL past level 4 touching, and that will do the opposite of what you want (clacking the horse under the jaw will make them fling their head up - the waggle of the rope is meant to transmit to the nose knots, which will cause the horse to tuck their head in when they back up)

I wouldn't use Parelli as the sole item in my "toolbox" but I certainly wouldn't hesitate to use elements of the 7 games.

MontanaApril-May2005079.jpg
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Sorry people, but totally unrelated....
Just wanted to 'wave' to Casey, I'm in Alsace too!!!!!!!
Cleebourg, Bas-Rhin to be precise, are you near?
Looking at the background in your photo probably not, it's all vineyards around here (...it's a hard life, I know...)
 
Parker79 said:
Interested in peoples opinions? the metal on the end of the 12 foot line is designed to 'crack' the horse under the jaw.
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In the wild, horses will bite under the jaw of another horse to get it to back off out of it's space, this is merely imitating that, and tbh, the horse will probably feel it a lot less than if another horse was to bite it there!
 
Beausmate said:
Ooo go on then. :D
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oo, ok then :D :p

It was a demonstration about loading.
The parelli guy (complete with cowboy hat), was standing discussing loading to the group, in a field, with his back to me about 50m away.
I was holding the horse (which was bad to load, apprantly) by the trailer.
The man was talking for ages, on and on about god knows what, so I thought I would try to load the horse as me and horse were getting a bit bored. The problem horse loaded perfectly first time, meanwhile the parelli man was still babbling away. Anywho, I tied up horse in trailer, but up ramp etc all by myself :) . Horse wasn't bad at loading at all, it just ignored its novice owner.
So anyways, parelli man walked over to me and the trailer, as asked "Where is the horse?!"
I replied, (in front of the group) "Its in the trailer, I just walked in no bother".
Cue, a very angry parelli man, who told me to unload the horse. Which I did, then he spent 10 minutes 're-loading' the horse, and in my eyes winding it up, by getting it to back down the ramp and flapping etc. All the poor horse wanted to do was get back on the trailer as it knew there was a haynet in there. The group was very unimpressed with his 'problem' horse. I got a good telling off, for ruining everything.
:D
 
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dominobrown said:
oo, ok then :D :p

It was a demonstration about loading.
The parelli guy (complete with cowboy hat), was standing discussing loading to the group, in a field, with his back to me about 50m away.
I was holding the horse (which was bad to load, apprantly) by the trailer.
The man was talking for ages, on and on about god knows what, so I thought I would try to load the horse as me and horse were getting a bit bored. The problem horse loaded perfectly first time, meanwhile the parelli man was still babbling away. Anywho, I tied up horse in trailer, but up ramp etc all by myself :) . Horse wasn't bad at loading at all, it just ignored its novice owner.
So anyways, parelli man walked over to me and the trailer, as asked "Where is the horse?!"
I replied, (in front of the group) "Its in the trailer, I just walked in no bother".
Cue, a very angry parelli man, who told me to unload the horse. Which I did, then he spent 10 minutes 're-loading' the horse, and in my eyes winding it up, by getting it to back down the ramp and flapping etc. All the poor horse wanted to do was get back on the trailer as it knew there was a haynet in there. The group was very unimpressed with his 'problem' horse. I got a good telling off, for ruining everything.
:D
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:D:D:D:D:D
 
dominobrown said:
oo, ok then :D :p

It was a demonstration about loading.
The parelli guy (complete with cowboy hat), was standing discussing loading to the group, in a field, with his back to me about 50m away.
I was holding the horse (which was bad to load, apprantly) by the trailer.
The man was talking for ages, on and on about god knows what, so I thought I would try to load the horse as me and horse were getting a bit bored. The problem horse loaded perfectly first time, meanwhile the parelli man was still babbling away. Anywho, I tied up horse in trailer, but up ramp etc all by myself :) . Horse wasn't bad at loading at all, it just ignored its novice owner.
So anyways, parelli man walked over to me and the trailer, as asked "Where is the horse?!"
I replied, (in front of the group) "Its in the trailer, I just walked in no bother".
Cue, a very angry parelli man, who told me to unload the horse. Which I did, then he spent 10 minutes 're-loading' the horse, and in my eyes winding it up, by getting it to back down the ramp and flapping etc. All the poor horse wanted to do was get back on the trailer as it knew there was a haynet in there. The group was very unimpressed with his 'problem' horse. I got a good telling off, for ruining everything.
:D
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:D:D:D bet you were popular. You hit the nail on the head though. a lot of the problems these days are due to clueless owners over horsing themselves and then looking for something to help fix things. If they are lucky they find someone who can help them out, if they are not, the find the parelli dvd's and start themselves and things go from bad to worse.
My mare was screwed up when i got her and I lacked the experience to deal with her. I was fortunate to be introduced to a lady who was a real horsewoman. She helped with a mixture of parelli and just old fashioned horsemanship. My mare was never hit with the carrot stick or smacked with the clip. It all worked for us, I learned loads from this lady and i have an amazing horse.
I agree with the above poster who said a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
 
team barney said:
Parelli is extremely cruel, it is a system based on the systematic destruction of your horse's personality, nature and natural instincts. The system is based on complete dominance over your horse which you achieve by playing their good cop/bad cop games.

It destroys horses spirits by being so inconsistent (i.e carrot sticks are used to both stroke and strike). Anyone who has come across someone who is nice on minute and nasty the next will understand how you can never know where you stand. It is far easier to feel secure with someone who is constantly nasty!

What you are watching in that atrocious DVD is what the have deemed the pinnacle of their training regime, a shining example of excellence.

People always argue that there are ways of practising Parelli that aren't cruel, but if you are practising Parelli as the founders practise it it is incredibly cruel.

Parelli and Rollkur are one of a kind really, both destroy natural instinct and create an almost robotic horse who more often than not displays signs of extreme learned helplessness.
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^^^^^^ Beautifully put and so right!
 
RolyPolyPony said:
In the wild, horses will bite under the jaw of another horse to get it to back off out of it's space, this is merely imitating that, and tbh, the horse will probably feel it a lot less than if another horse was to bite it there!
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Oh dear, not the old "horses do worse to each other" chestnut! :( Sorry, RPP, but the fact that horses sometimes behave violently towards other horses with teeth and hooves really isn't an excuse or reason for us to emulate that behaviour by hitting or clunking them ourselves. Haven't we left the Dark Ages of horsemanship where horses were routinely dominated by force behind yet?? It seems not...
 
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dominobrown said:
oo, ok then :D :p

It was a demonstration about loading.
The parelli guy (complete with cowboy hat), was standing discussing loading to the group, in a field, with his back to me about 50m away.
I was holding the horse (which was bad to load, apprantly) by the trailer.
The man was talking for ages, on and on about god knows what, so I thought I would try to load the horse as me and horse were getting a bit bored. The problem horse loaded perfectly first time, meanwhile the parelli man was still babbling away. Anywho, I tied up horse in trailer, but up ramp etc all by myself :) . Horse wasn't bad at loading at all, it just ignored its novice owner.
So anyways, parelli man walked over to me and the trailer, as asked "Where is the horse?!"
I replied, (in front of the group) "Its in the trailer, I just walked in no bother".
Cue, a very angry parelli man, who told me to unload the horse. Which I did, then he spent 10 minutes 're-loading' the horse, and in my eyes winding it up, by getting it to back down the ramp and flapping etc. All the poor horse wanted to do was get back on the trailer as it knew there was a haynet in there. The group was very unimpressed with his 'problem' horse. I got a good telling off, for ruining everything.
:D
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You're my new hero :D


Team Barney - is that a one eyed TB in your avatar? Does your name refer to that barney then? I always presumed you had a hores called Barney :o
 
Wow - lots of responses! Love the one about the demo being ruined!

I will not be watching any more Parelli - I had always assumed it was 'kind', how wrong was I! I am still keen on some of the NH methods I've already been shown, my instructor has done a lot of training with Kelly Marks and she has some fab methods from various different people.

I think for now I will trust the intructor and leave the DIY version. I have owned my TBx mare for 10 years and managed without Parelli, using good old time, patience and instructors with my youngster will be best!

Thank you to Tinypony for your input....very funny!
 
RolyPolyPony said:
In the wild, horses will bite under the jaw of another horse to get it to back off out of it's space, this is merely imitating that, and tbh, the horse will probably feel it a lot less than if another horse was to bite it there!
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The difference is of course that the wild horse isn't attached to the other wild horse by a 12ft long bit of rope. Meaning it can get away, right away, if it wants to. Bites under the jaw are quite rare though aren't they? (Looking to see if Fburton has anything on that).

Besides which, just because a horse does something that we consider a bit similar, that doesn't mean we have to do it. We have more brains than horses and can think of other ways that will work just as well.

There are some good basics in Parelli I think, teaching the yields and neck flexion are a good foundation to ridden work. The young horse starting is thorough (and a bit of a closely guarded secret). It's sort of the how that's the problem for me.

(I'm happily ticking off my list in my earlier post, it's all happening in such a spooky sort of way. Maybe I'm psychic...).
 
Tinypony said:
Or, seriously, I think the thing is that once Parelli people get good (and other NH people for that matter), you don't realise that they are "Parelli people".
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In my view, the best Parelli people are those who haven't copied Pat (and to some extent Linda) exactly and have had the time and motivation to develop by themselves. By "best" I mean both effective and pleasant to watch. Pat may be effective (though sometimes he isn't, as in the case of Catwalk and Sage) and supremely self-confident, but imo he is also lacking in feel, quietness, fairness, and respect for the horse.

For example, compare his trailer loading

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ueprRcH5B4

with that of a Parelli (Ellen Ofstad)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9ZEvOaoEcY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rZSeBe1AzU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyCnfBBSWuc

Okay, Ellen's approach may not be to everyone's taste and the horses involved are different, but I think you'll agree the two trainers are light-years apart. Pat gets the horse to load by making it unpleasant for the horse to do anything else; Ellen gets the horse to load by getting it calm and focused first of all, then working on leading, and then only after that does she attempt to load the horse.
 
Tinypony said:
Bites under the jaw are quite rare though aren't they? (Looking to see if Fburton has anything on that).
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Nothing definitive, but if you think about where horses bite each other most often, under the jaw would be unusual except in the case of play-fighting (or real-fighting) colts and stallions. One horse trying to get another to move would go for the chest, neck, side or flank - i.e. the easiest to reach parts! And often the teeth won't actually connect.
 
I've just been looking at stuff on the web about Ellen Ofstad and it would appear that she isn't a Parelli person after all. Oops, sorry about that. :o However, I still think some of Parelli's pupils have better feel and attitude than their guru.
 
Yes, I agree with you Fburton, I think some of the Parelli pupils have outgrown what they learnt in that system and moved on well.
I thought that about biting under the jaw, more a colty thing and maybe a reason why people should think before flapping their hands around the faces of entire horses? I can't see any comparison with how a horse will, very occasionally, nip under another horses jaw with smacking it about with a big metal clip.
(Did you see that I featured you in my summary of Parelli threads earlier? Funny how these threads somehow draw us in).
I've just been looking at a bit of vid of Honza. Some I'm not keen on, but I think the general demeanor of his later trained horses is happier and more relaxed than with his early Parelli horse, Gaston. I think they certainly look happier than Pignon's horses tend to look.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5ZmDkhqhW8
 
I know someone who loves it... Boo. Anyway i think it's purely because she lacks the knowledge of educating a horse?

She was telling me how she was going , 1,2,3 by the horses side and if it didn't move by her body language she cracked it hard so that it new the next time... Wtf?!

My horse will happily move over if I say 'over' !

Also another cracker was that shes teaching it piaffe as all you do is 'tap its legs'. On the next breath she then said how do you get them to carry themselves nicely? And I thought, why the hell are you trying to teach it piaffe?!
 
Maybe you should tell her that piaffe isn't part of Parelli level 1? Because from what you say she can't be much further in their programme than that. ;-)
 
Having been taught NH by a friends mum, I don't agree with parelli but that's just my opinion I know people who have used it successfully :)
I was taught more about reading the horse/body language ect with a simple rope halter (not a parelli one!) no carrot sticks and all that commercial rubbish! I still use bits of it now, but in everyday situations rather than seeing a horse rear and watching a DVD on how to tackle it.
I'm not against parelli it just seems a lot of effort/money to be natural ..
 
I don't know a lot about NH - I've seen Monty Roberts and Kelly Marks doing a demo (very entertaining) but don't know a thing about Parelli. Have to say that what I've picked up reading this seems to be that you alternately poke them with sticks or flap long lines at them ;) I'm sure there must be more to it than that!
 
fburton said:
Nothing definitive, but if you think about where horses bite each other most often, under the jaw would be unusual except in the case of play-fighting (or real-fighting) colts and stallions. One horse trying to get another to move would go for the chest, neck, side or flank - i.e. the easiest to reach parts! And often the teeth won't actually connect.
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That was what I thought.. Only seen boys playing with the jaw and that's not a move signal it's a play/fight one :/ And as you say, with warnings that just it, a warning, not regular connection.

I find aspects of parelli good, as with most other ways of training. I think that by fully commiting to one technique, you aren't doing right by the horse though. Yes you should be consistent. But by mixing a range of teaching methods and treating each horse individually you'll have far more response than sticking to your guns on a technique that your horse doesn't get.
The best techniques are born by experience and remembering that you're training a horse not a human. Flip a clip at the wrong time and they won't know what to associate it with and will more likely just learn to hate/fear working with you full stop as opposed to the individual behaviour that was to be discouraged.

Pan
 
Tinypony, love that video clip, thanks for the link :) I liked the music too.

I am always struck by the time that must go into that sort of thing.

I have the spitting image of that bay horse in my paddock.
 
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