Spaniel Update

PapaverFollis said:
I'm interested! I'm glad she's going well. It is interesting for me to read about training a proper spaniel after having a working bred one as a pet. The invisible line thing, does that come naturally to some of them? I always thought mine was like he was on an invisible 15m ish lead at that age (unless there was water to play in further away). He's got a bit more distance as he's got older but 99% of the time he's in sight and he's usually close... I've encouraged that with training though as I call them back if they go out of sight.
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Mine is the same, although he does have an initial “freedom run” he only goes about 15 metres away. Although his long training lead was 15m long so not sure if that distance is just what he’s familiar with? He sometimes goes a bit further now he’s older but never out of site, if he does accidentally in the woods or something he runs back to check you’re still there
 
PapaverFollis said:
I'm interested! I'm glad she's going well. It is interesting for me to read about training a proper spaniel after having a working bred one as a pet. The invisible line thing, does that come naturally to some of them? I always thought mine was like he was on an invisible 15m ish lead at that age (unless there was water to play in further away). He's got a bit more distance as he's got older but 99% of the time he's in sight and he's usually close... I've encouraged that with training though as I call them back if they go out of sight.
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Interested too! Mrs Spaniel is as you know a pet, I have no idea of her breeding but she also has an invisible line. I just assumed its cos she's a clingy little brat!
 
Referring back to CC's comment, take it from someone whose dogs were always 'on' but are now hurtling towards retirement - enjoy it! There were times where it felt like a chore (5 mile run followed by 2hr training session followed by driving across the country camping in a creepy forest at -2c for a two day race followed by dog still getting you up at 6am ready for another 5 mile run - agh!) but now they are old and crusty and one riddled with arthritis I am feeling somewhat bereft.

I have just had two show spaniels for a 10 day holiday and while I love the affectionate, dippy little sods to pieces they are not the smartest bunch and far too easy to do by comparison. They have an invisible lead but only because they're too daft and lacking in any kind of drive to go far from their beloved human. :p
 
The problem is that I am still not used to chilled, or to being eyeballed and huffed at for daring to suggest a second walk in the same day. What happened to my screaming banshees?!

The spaniels temporarily plugged the gap, poor things had their legs walked off and went home 1.2kg lighter than they arrived. :D
 
She has no more energy or drive than a trials bred lab, and is no more trouble in the house than they are or were at the same age, she lies down quietly while we eat and in the evening just sleeps in her basket. We never had an incontinent lab though, and I do find the constant floor washing a bit tiring, but it is getting better. Where I find her hard is a lab wants to do things with you, wheareas she wants to do things for herself. 15m may be natural - who knows, but tbh I need to get it a lot closer now so that it doesn't go further when she is working. I admit to being lazy and at the moment just appreciating that she doesn't purely bog off any more! It is interesting that everyones seem to hang around at the same distance though.
 
Big dog generally stays in easy visual range, he likes to keep us in sight now, Bear bogs off into whatever bramble patch he can find but returns on 3 pips, Zak isn’t allowed further than I can throw a ball!

Re not being clean in the house, my parents in law dog sat Brig and Jake many years ago when we’d just got them, we were wondering why they weren’t yet clean. They restricted them to the corridor for 3 days when they were indoors. They were clean when we got home. Brilliant!
 
cinnamontoast said:
Big dog generally stays in easy visual range, he likes to keep us in sight now, Bear bogs off into whatever bramble patch he can find but returns on 3 pips, Zak isn’t allowed further than I can throw a ball!

Re not being clean in the house, my parents in law dog sat Brig and Jake many years ago when we’d just got them, we were wondering why they weren’t yet clean. They restricted them to the corridor for 3 days when they were indoors. They were clean when we got home. Brilliant!
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She is clean for proper wees, but leaky overexcited ones are an ongoing issue!
 
Well an amazing update. I decided that she was totally not a dog I would ever like and that we would sell her come the spring. To that end, and to enable her to stand the best possible chance of finding a good home I have made a real effort with the training.
I would still never, ever, in a million years choose to own another one but she has made huge progress. Today, for the first time, we actually went for a walk and she behaved like a normal dog, sniffy and busy but with me both mentally and physically. The first time ever I have felt a link with her.

Apart from being like a record stuck on 78rpm why does no one tell you how much grooming spaniels need? And do those people that own great herds of them actually comb their ears every day?
 
Very glad to hear your progress. :)

Clodagh said:
Apart from being like a record stuck on 78rpm why does no one tell you how much grooming spaniels need? And do those people that own great herds of them actually comb their ears every day?
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Nothing like a soggy spaniel! And the ears, god yes the ears, hours to dry and hours to comb out... I love these little twerps but couldn't deal with grooming them every day.

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blackcob said:
Very glad to hear your progress. :)



Nothing like a soggy spaniel! And the ears, god yes the ears, hours to dry and hours to comb out... I love these little twerps but couldn't deal with grooming them every day.

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Oh my, I will never complain about one working bred springer pair again!
 
How old is she now C? Luna, although clean in the house, still did excited wees up until a couple of months ago. She’d stopped doing them indoors when we came in after being out at about 9/10 months, but when I took her out to get in the car when going up horses or just going for a walk, if neighbours happened to be outside and said hello and made a fuss of her, she would still do them. Last time we went to the vets (April I think, so would have been 10 months), she only did one excited wee. Time before that she did about 5! Jabs due next month, so will see how far we’ve come.
 
She is 9 months. Excited wees only really happen now when she is carrying something and you praise her. Or ask her to sit so you can put her lead on. Funniest thing (I think) is when we are doing retrieve training in the garden she jumps up on the garden table with whatever she has, does a little wee and then brings it. :-)
 
Clodagh said:
Here she is today. She loves learning and doing things but boy you have to be on the ball - almost literally! She is now kennelled overnight as was getting dirtier and dirtier in her cage and I need my sleep. As she gets more hunting driven she no longer has time to wee or poo before bed, so when a girls gotta go. I have never had a dog dirty in the crate before. The kennel is a Godsend as we all start the day in a happy mood. :-) Come winter we will decide whether she can come back in at night. (I am a soft touch).
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She is just sooooo pretty!
 
Really interesting updates, especially where you say you didn't think you could ever like her. Was that down to the weariness of trying to house train or just her personality in general? It sounds much more positive now though. Will you keep her?
 
Re herds of spaniels, mine are forever on my knee and I fiddle with ears constantly, so no tats appear, although big dog won’t have it. A solo comb is your best friend!

I did have to dry them the other day, think we had something happening. Bear sees the hairdryer and presents himself, nose in the air ecstatically, big dog skulks into a corner and puss cat helpfully lies down.

I’m glad you’re enjoying her, C. I was delighted with puss cat today, took him training alone, did plenty of dummy retrieves from a height. He’s so clever, up on his back legs searching, I was so impressed that he remembers when we haven’t done that for ages.
 
WorkingGSD said:
Really interesting updates, especially where you say you didn't think you could ever like her. Was that down to the weariness of trying to house train or just her personality in general? It sounds much more positive now though. Will you keep her?
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It is being so irrelevant to her when she is out of the garden. Every other breed I has had has given you some interaction, not going too far, eye contact, a tail flick of acknowledgement. She doesn't care if I am there or not.
Not sure if I have said this, but if my OH comes into the yard and I open the garden gate for the dogs to go and greet him the three labs run to him and the spanner just runs off to look for rabbits. Humans are not interesting. It is slowly getting better.
As for will we keep her, decision will be made in the new year but having dogged in with Tawny through a wood this morning I do really need a dog that can do it without fear of injury - Tawny crashing through piles of brash is terrifying as it is there she did her first stifle injury.
 
cinnamontoast said:
Re herds of spaniels, mine are forever on my knee and I fiddle with ears constantly, so no tats appear, although big dog won’t have it. A solo comb is your best friend!

I did have to dry them the other day, think we had something happening. Bear sees the hairdryer and presents himself, nose in the air ecstatically, big dog skulks into a corner and puss cat helpfully lies down.

I’m glad you’re enjoying her, C. I was delighted with puss cat today, took him training alone, did plenty of dummy retrieves from a height. He’s so clever, up on his back legs searching, I was so impressed that he remembers when we haven’t done that for ages.
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I did wonder about a solo comb, I only have a tail rake and it doesn't get in the hard bits! Mum has given me a comb that she uses on her collie and now that I have got the old knots out it seems to keep on top of things.
Glad 'puss cat' doing well. :-)
 
Clodagh said:
It is being so irrelevant to her when she is out of the garden. Every other breed I has had has given you some interaction, not going too far, eye contact, a tail flick of acknowledgement. She doesn't care if I am there or not.
Not sure if I have said this, but if my OH comes into the yard and I open the garden gate for the dogs to go and greet him the three labs run to him and the spanner just runs off to look for rabbits. Humans are not interesting. It is slowly getting better.
As for will we keep her, decision will be made in the new year but having dogged in with Tawny through a wood this morning I do really need a dog that can do it without fear of injury - Tawny crashing through piles of brash is terrifying as it is there she did her first stifle injury.
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I totally get where you are coming from having looked after my sister's border terriers in the past. I love my handler-dependent, biddable, only-have-eyes-for me GSDs. The terriers were totally uninterested in humans when an interesting scent beckoned or they wanted to go one way and I another. They are such robust, fun little dogs but there is no way I would want one. House training them has been a nightmare too. Collies are a bit of a mixed bag as we have some who just live for work and who seek sheep out at any opportunity, to those who have been every bit as handler orientated than the shepherds. Spaniels definitely seem to live for their nose, which is great for working dogs - so long as it can be harnessed I guess?
 
WorkingGSD said:
I totally get where you are coming from having looked after my sister's border terriers in the past. I love my handler-dependent, biddable, only-have-eyes-for me GSDs. The terriers were totally uninterested in humans when an interesting scent beckoned or they wanted to go one way and I another. They are such robust, fun little dogs but there is no way I would want one. House training them has been a nightmare too. Collies are a bit of a mixed bag as we have some who just live for work and who seek sheep out at any opportunity, to those who have been every bit as handler orientated than the shepherds. Spaniels definitely seem to live for their nose, which is great for working dogs - so long as it can be harnessed I guess?
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We have had lots of terriers, OH used to be a hunt terrierman and we had both kennelled workers/home living workers and home pets, all sorts, Borders, JRTs and patts. All much easier than a spaniel :-). There was a litter of Border collie x lab pups near here, I wanted to get one of them but we already had the spaniel and OH thought it was too soon to change our minds.
I think she will be OK, never 'mine' but OK to work. Will keep you informed.
 
The best dogging in animal I've ever used was a Collie....long range control, no interest in flushing.

I hope you manage to learn to live with her - the lack of human orientation is odd though, mine are very much focused on me when out and about!
 
lovely updates clodagh! We have had a lab and 7 collies over the last 20 years. we currently have 3 collies and got our first working cocker pup a few weeks ago. It’s a totally different kettle of fish but I did train a few folk with wcs when I ran classes so I had a little experience. I really think you’ve just been unlucky but you are doing a fab job and she is gorgeous! I have had a collie dirty in a cage as you describe and a total nightmare to train, limited eye contact, completely distracted. I am convinced there are as many personality types with a breed as we get in humans and if an autistic spectrum exists, there is something similar for dogs. I don’t think your experience is just ‘typical spaniel’. Yes they are busy and can be work but Ive known several first time dog owners with them who hadn’t much clue and house training was clicked with a week as was off lead close work. Annoying as it was! ;) :D Ours is definitely different to the collies and not as quick to learn but he is one of the cleanest pups we have ever had and he is very focused. i havent read every single post in this thread but to me, I would stop allowing the opportunity to hunt and be distracted. I would set up a small 12 x 12 fenced toileting pen - take her out on the lead and back in on the lead. If she is distracted by things outside it, use a windbreak. We also have to teach them to be the kind of house dogs we want; you CAN teach her to be calm, in many cases this business you describe is actually a stress reaction, an overload, in my very humble experience, if you kennel her now you wont ever make a good transition back to the house dog you want. Ive tried it both ways. Good luck xx
 
druid said:
The best dogging in animal I've ever used was a Collie....long range control, no interest in flushing.

I hope you manage to learn to live with her - the lack of human orientation is odd though, mine are very much focused on me when out and about!
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Trouble is the only collies we see here are the pet ones who have so many issues it has put OH off. I think living here with a job they would be fine.
 
NeverEver said:
lovely updates clodagh! We have had a lab and 7 collies over the last 20 years. we currently have 3 collies and got our first working cocker pup a few weeks ago. It’s a totally different kettle of fish but I did train a few folk with wcs when I ran classes so I had a little experience. I really think you’ve just been unlucky but you are doing a fab job and she is gorgeous! I have had a collie dirty in a cage as you describe and a total nightmare to train, limited eye contact, completely distracted. I am convinced there are as many personality types with a breed as we get in humans and if an autistic spectrum exists, there is something similar for dogs. I don’t think your experience is just ‘typical spaniel’. Yes they are busy and can be work but Ive known several first time dog owners with them who hadn’t much clue and house training was clicked with a week as was off lead close work. Annoying as it was! ;) :D Ours is definitely different to the collies and not as quick to learn but he is one of the cleanest pups we have ever had and he is very focused. i havent read every single post in this thread but to me, I would stop allowing the opportunity to hunt and be distracted. I would set up a small 12 x 12 fenced toileting pen - take her out on the lead and back in on the lead. If she is distracted by things outside it, use a windbreak. We also have to teach them to be the kind of house dogs we want; you CAN teach her to be calm, in many cases this business you describe is actually a stress reaction, an overload, in my very humble experience, if you kennel her now you wont ever make a good transition back to the house dog you want. Ive tried it both ways. Good luck xx
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Really can't face building a pen for her, I was talking to a trailling spaniel man who said she must never be allowed to please herself, and I expect that level of obedience is best, but not the way we want to keep a dog. I am happy for her to chase sparrows in the garden. She is definately staying kennelled at night too. She is actually very good in the house and lies down with us when we are in the back during the day, apart from climbing on my lap when I am on the computer, which is fine. She is housetrained now bar excited sprinkles, which she really can't help. :-)
Today I am going to start insisting on eye contact, I have never had to train it before but I am sure it can be taught. I will be back soon with an update...
 
Clodagh said:
I was talking to a trailling spaniel man who said she must never be allowed to please herself, and I expect that level of obedience is best, but not the way we want to keep a dog. I am happy for her to chase sparrows in the garden. .
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Sorry if teaching grandmother to suck eggs, but a couple of points if I may....... :)

Consistency is paramount with dogs; therefore, how do you expect a young pup to know that it's okay to chase sparrows but not phezzies??? Yes, in time the dog may learn context......as in, in back garden it's fine but not in the field. However, by allowing the one at this early age you are making a real rod for your own back and complicating matters. (As an aside, I have used the darting and swooping of low level swifts in the past to test and build steadiness in a dog and to proof a stop whistle and VERY VERY occasionally in an older dog that was a bit stale to encourage it to 'get on'. However, this was all with dogs that were pretty reliable.....not raw youngsters.) By the way, mine aren't trailling dogs, just good old workers.

Also, maybe wrongly, I feel from what you write that your pup either is, or is on the verge of, going self-employed. She needs to learn that you know the best places to hunt, that you are the one that provides her with all this fun and that it happens WITH you........not at a distance away from you. Tighten up the size of the beat you work with her - spanners are supposed to be boot lickers!! :D (The voice of one who works HPRs!!)
 
Trouble is, the only way to stop sparrow chasing would be for her to be kennelled all day as if we are home, in this weather, the back door is open. As she can only go out of the garden on a lead or for a tight training session I am not sure that would be fair? I do acknowledge many people keep their dogs that way, and maybe that is the only successful way to keep a working spaniel. God help us if so!
She does know the difference between chickens and sparrows! And the garden is full of poults now (release pen in wood next door) and they seem to come under the chicken heading at the moment. I am not saying you are wrong, but just I would hate to keep a dog that only leaves its run to be trained. Maybe she will just have to live in the kennel 24/7 bar training if that is that the only answer? God I wish we had a collie!
 
OK, have had a quick meeting with OH and he agrees with you, we expect too much. So she is now in the kennel all the time bar 2 training sessions. Hopefully by next summer she will be able to potter in the garden, and soon we won't want the back door open anyway. Thank you.
 
the thing is that if you work on it now, you don’t necessarily have to keep a dog in this way for life. There is hope!! You condition her now to be the dog you want. Can’t you put a baby gate over the back door? Honestly - get some cheap plastic barrier netting and a few electric fence posts and you can have a pee - pen in under 5 minutes.
 
I think the saying that labs are born half trained, spaniels die half trained is apt here. I’ve known a couple of springers that don’t give a damn about being with the owner and have watched them trying to catch them in the woods. They’re known, however, as Velcro dogs, because they're normally glued to the owner. Zak is doing his panther lying on branch on my leg currently. I know I was stupid to train my two together but separately they’re a dream or fabulous together in a very controlled situation.

I wonder if it would be helpful if you could find a springer specialist, although I know you’re experienced with other breeds. That’s when it all clicked for me, never thought I’d need one given I’d already had two (very easy ones!)
 
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