Spurs or no spurs?

Mithras said:
To be fair, I jump only 1 out of my 3 in spurs. And it is the most forward going of the three with the most blood. As an owner-rider, I can fine tune what my horse responds best to. Some horses like the reassurance of a spur when jumping. This is the horse I like to invite other people to ride, as he is very large and I'm very small, and there have been quite a few who thought his very forward going style was because I was too small for him, or because I wore spurs and jazzed him up. Since he is 17 and no-one can change his way of going, this is often quite an interesting exercise, and has demonstrated the old adage quite literally, pride comes before a fall. He's very phlegmatic if you do things his way and one of the things he likes is a feeling of certainty from the rider, which is aided by a rubber ball spur to be used if necessary for slightly greater pressure from a leg already halfway up his side! Saying that, he wins a lot and I quite enjoy his quirkiness.

I note that "Koen" doesn't distinguish between different types of spurs, or mention leg position.
Click to expand...

I cant make head nor tail of what you are trying to say here?

Not being rude but you seem to be giving your horse all sorts of anthropomorphic attributes.

Are you sure its him that likes the reassurance of spurs?

"He's very phlegmatic if you do things his way" "one think he likes is the feeling of certainty from the rider" "Some horses like the reassurance of a spur"

So to do things not his way (as he likes the good old reassuring spurs?) dump the spurs and be goes like a bomb?
 
Pongwiffy said:
My legs are long, not short - as I said, the only way I can make contact with my horse's sides with my lower leg would be by putting in a joint in my shin or by shifting my leg up and back and raising my heel which, apart from looking ugly means I am applying the leg near his flank - which is incorrect. Horses are not born well schooled - once they understand what you are asking then a good part of that training is about refining the aids IMO. You teach a young horse to turn by opening the rein but later on you can change direction by just twisting your waist - an aid that subtle wouldn't work initially, it takes training. When teaching walk to canter to my horse I needed lots of leg and had to really exaggerate putting my outside leg back to get the transition - now I can get walk to canter with a half halt and a slight shift of weight - but I couldn't have done that initially because aids that subtle wouldn't have meant anything to my horse, it takes training. The horse understands perfectly that a squeeze with my calf means go forward and he is a forward horse but when I am trying to teach him lateral work I need to make it clear to him that in addition to going forward I also need him to move over sideways.
Click to expand...

I understand you have a handicap in this respect but spurs are not going to help. If your heal is hanging bellow the horses belly because your legs are so long there is no way spurs are going to help you, you are going to be jabbing thin air. Pressure with your calves is all you need and your seat, for any movements. A dressage whip will help in training absolutely.

Yes it takes training of the horse to get them listening to just the seat aids and very subtle changes in finger position. For you I would definitely suggest a horse with a lot of TB in it, where you can use the waiting aids. These horses also take to learning the seat aids very very easily. Simply briefly opening and closing your fingers ever so slightly and sitting very still will get you an extended canter.

I think there is nothing quite as elegant as a very well centred tall rider riding effortlessly. I will looking for some videos to show you...there are a few very good very tall riders.
 
Koen said:
BTW I also think the double bridal should not be madatory in Dressage at any level.

Lets face it a horse not able to do exactly the same in a simple snaffle with a cavesson shouldn't be there.
Click to expand...

Bridle. Your ideals are perhaps more suited to the bridal industry.
 
Koen said:
I cant make head nor tail of what you are trying to say here?

Not being rude but you seem to be giving your horse all sorts of anthropomorphic attributes.

Are you sure its him that likes the reassurance of spurs?

"He's very phlegmatic if you do things his way" "one think he likes is the feeling of certainty from the rider" "Some horses like the reassurance of a spur"

So to do things not his way (as he likes the good old reassuring spurs?) dump the spurs and be goes like a bomb?
Click to expand...

Its called having a partnership with your horse.

No, without me riding him in my favoured equipment, he dumps professional riders by stopping and firing them into the jump. Which is possibly because he only started affiliated jumping at age 13 and needs someone to adapt to him and his various quirks, not the other way round.

Do feel free to pm me if you want a shot round a 1m20 course on him. I'm pretty confident he is so set in his way of going that no-one, even the most idiotic talking horse novice of a rider, could harm him.

His nickname on the yard is The Equaliser.
 
Koen said:
I think there is nothing quite as elegant as a very well centred tall rider riding effortlessly. I will looking for some videos to show you...there are a few very good very tall riders.
Click to expand...

Gosh. Sorry for butting in, but could I possibly watch said video link too. I await it with baited breath, what with me being unable to search the internet for a tall elegant rider myself.
 
Koen said:
For you I would definitely suggest a horse with a lot of TB in it, where you can use the waiting aids. These horses also take to learning the seat aids very very easily.
Click to expand...


I appreciate the recommendation but as I don't have a horse with a lot of TB in it I have to work with what I've got, unless I was willing to sell my horse- which I'm not as we have a good relationship.

I would imagine very few riders find their perfectly proportioned equine partner who also has the talent and temperament they also ideally need so need to overcome a few issues in order to get the best out of them.

Swan neck spurs were invented to help address a particular issue so I really don't see the objection as long as, like all spurs, they are used with tact and sensitivity. Interestingly my horse was nervous about me carrying a whip initially but accepted spurs from the beginning with no problem.
 
Strange old thread.

I believe no horse should ever be ridden on the road without the rider carrying a whip in the outside hand. Thoughts ?
 
Koen said:
I can't agree.

Spurs are totally unnecessary in my opinion.

I believe the rules that spurs are a mandatory requirement for example at the top levels of dressage a complete nonsense. The rules should be changed this is 2014 not the late Middle Ages. The opposite should be in place. Spurs should not be tolerated at all.

I cant agree "in the right hands etc" they simply don't belong anywhere near a horse.

I've never watched a dressage competition at the highest international level where I haven't seen spurs routinely abused. This doesn't mean bleeding sides or marks and gauges necessarily. Insidious, continuous use (contact) as an aid is abuse. Same in show jumping at international level. These are apparently "the right hands" ?

In the realms of the amateur rider this sanctioned abuse is widely copied but it honestly doesn't make any difference who is using them or what contrived reasons they have for using them. Their use is abuse.

A properly schooled, properly fed and fit horse should not need "artificial" aids of any kind. Fine tuning high energy feed for the job at hand and keeping a horse fit is the way, no short cuts at the horses expense.

If the horse or even the rider is not up to the job abusing the horse wont help. Understanding the horses character and working with not against it might be more ideal. Truly phlegmatic horses shouldn't be asked to do anything they aren't up for doing. Nor should riders be involved in an activity on a horse if they can't cope with a job that requires high energy.

As far as mentioned here having extremely short legs or being extremely light as a rider are not a reason to use spurs. An educated well schooled rider on a well schooled horse should have no problems with the rider using only seat and hand aids if need be. They should ride horses with more blood and feed accordingly, or accept their limitations.

Horses will move away from a whip and this is useful in training some youngsters, but it should never be used other than a light tap or gesture on or just behind the leg. Horses don't move away from spurs they cant see them to start with its only contact that will force the horse to move forward. It's also not at all constructive to use spurs instead of a whip as described above either on any horse to teach it to move away from the leg if it doesn't already by instinct.

I can't think of a single good use for spurs, only reasons why they should be banned outright.
Click to expand...

Yawn ,
You do want with you're horse and we'll do what we want with ours .
 
Koen said:
Correct. It's a crutch for many riders.

How many times do you se a horse get a wallop because it refuses a fence, or a jab with the spurs? More often than not it doesnt help at all and they still end up in a heap.

What horse endure.....
Click to expand...
And what do you have to say about bits then? A bit is cruel in the wrong hands perhaps we should stop using them too!
 
pip6 said:
Anything can be used to enhance & used to abuse. Personally I never carry a whip or use spurs, don't need them.

When I used to do fence judging, I used to hate being on the first fence for the mini classes. You'd get mums (have to say never hada dad), coming asking if they could stand by the fence with a lunge whip to engourage darlings pony over (once he gets over the first one he's fine apparently). Always refused (after all does constitute outside interference), to see darling turn up on pony wearing spurs & with 3 ring gag snaffle in it's chops (with the ever-present flash noseband & martingale as well). Cue mummy yelling (usually 'kick him on!'), darling doing the pony club kick with the spurs, then after 2 refusals pony agrees to do the jump, getting jabbed in the chops with the gag as rider looses balance for his efforts.

Used by talanted, responsible, calm riders I have no issue with them.
Click to expand...

I remember being at a PC ODE where all under 16's had to be approved by the pony club district commisioner to wear spurs. Being only just 16 and not a member of the pony club I almost wasn't allowed to wear them - in fact I was only allowed them for jumping and not for dresage. Lucky I knew the DC or I wouldn't have been allowed them at all.
 
Koen said:
For you I would definitely suggest a horse with a lot of TB in it, where you can use the waiting aids. These horses also take to learning the seat aids very very easily. Simply briefly opening and closing your fingers ever so slightly and sitting very still will get you an extended canter.
Click to expand...

Sorry, who are you to suggest what horse people should be riding? I don't thinks that is your call at all especially if you have not met either of them. Down right rude if you ask me
 
if a horse cannot be shown engaged and perform without the use of obligatory spurs and cannot be held together without a double bridle, it just goes to show that the dressage has failed, i would like to see comps for horses to show that the rider can produce a horse without the use of either.
i agree with the use of the whip for riding out, and to support sharpness off the aids, but gently and only when really necessary.
for me the suitability of horse for purpose is crucial, and personal preference, i only ride sharp horses preferably high proportion tb although i have one horse who is almost lazy to start with, but as he warms up he becomes very dynamic, i have learned a lot from him, how to sit to influence him effectively and this has dramatically improved my riding of other horses, the best lesson of my riding life i owe to him, if i pushed him with harsh aids he would have backed off, i was forced to find a better way, so learned to get results without spurs, which i have never used, it did'nt occur to me even, i feel so sorry for the frustration people feel when they cannot get the results they want, all the shoving and pushing and jabbing is not the pathway to where they want to go, if fact the right horse and the right attitude go hand in hand, i think anyway.
 
tristar said:
if a horse cannot be shown engaged and perform without the use of obligatory spurs and cannot be held together without a double bridle, it just goes to show that the dressage has failed, i would like to see comps for horses to show that the rider can produce a horse without the use of either.
i agree with the use of the whip for riding out, and to support sharpness off the aids, but gently and only when really necessary.
for me the suitability of horse for purpose is crucial, and personal preference, i only ride sharp horses preferably high proportion tb although i have one horse who is almost lazy to start with, but as he warms up he becomes very dynamic, i have learned a lot from him, how to sit to influence him effectively and this has dramatically improved my riding of other horses, the best lesson of my riding life i owe to him, if i pushed him with harsh aids he would have backed off, i was forced to find a better way, so learned to get results without spurs, which i have never used, it did'nt occur to me even, i feel so sorry for the frustration people feel when they cannot get the results they want, all the shoving and pushing and jabbing is not the pathway to where they want to go, if fact the right horse and the right attitude go hand in hand, i think anyway.
Click to expand...

And this is of course the most sensible reply amongst them all.

I had a good chuckle for the most reading the replies. It was like riffling the grandparents attic for their fragile sepia copies of Punch magazine, flashbacks of Thelwell's ponies and camp political indignation. You would've thought I had closed the ship yards! Sadly I also get the distinct and rather uncomfortable feeling most of those that replied should most definitely not be anywhere near a pair of spurs or even a pony for that matter.

Tristar has it spot on.

While it does of course concern me the use of spurs in amateur pursuits it must of course come from the top down to have any effect. That's to say their use at the very top of professional equestrian sporting competitions is where they have the most influence and where they should be banned. I believe it won't be very long before they will be too, just a matter of time.

The double bridle most definitely should also be phased out of FEI Dressage tests. It serves no purpose and quite honestly simply masks a horses training or lack off training one of the most important things they are supposedly being scored on. It was a huge relief for me when bridle inspection was introduced at FEI events, the practise of the use of the tortuously tight nose bands to clamp the jaws shut ended. In the ring at least. Sadly this continues at home in private yards but the effect of its control at international and national levels will definitely continue trickling down steadily.

Horses trained for dressage at the top level are most often trained in a double bridle from start, as three year olds back home. Its stuck in their mouths so they get used to it not because the horse needs it or the rider, it's as much part of a redundant uniform as a pair of spurs is or a top hat has become. The fact that it's called for, mandatory means riders don't have the choice, though there certainly are riders that do in fact consider it unnecessary.

Unfortunately it's all too common for the spur to be the only aid to the piaffe in dressage competitions. It may take another ruffle of the dressage worlds feathers to see that the dogmatic requirement of rigid old school absolute military style discipline is no longer a requirement for a horse to express itself to it's full potential. It's in fact an impediment. Something we may feel that is pretty obvious especially as it impinges on the welfare of the horse too but strangely enough its not that obvious to most dressage judges today.

If a horse could have more freedom of expression the odd mistake wouldn't be seen as a mistake at all. To get to that level the horse needs higher energy levels and this is where the "spur piaffe syndrome" will end as riders could feed their horses and allow for a more natural piaffe. The irony of course is that horses are being bred with more and more of this energy to be able to be contenders at the top levels.

The excitement will die down very quickly amongst the punters but obviously it will take commitment from the FEI but maybe even legislation is the answere if need be, Im not fussed. The sooner the better.
 
Last edited:
sorry I haven't read all the replies, except this last page.
I have always felt that it's strange that at the very top level of dressage everyone rides with a double bridle and spurs. If they are such fabby dooby riders with such well trained horses, why can't they manage these movements with a plain ol' snaffle?
I don't ride my horse in spurs (I value my life too much for that) but I know some people who ride theirs in spurs and I don't really see how (used correctly and sympathetically) it's any more cruel than using a metal bar in the horse's mouth.
Oh, and riding my wee arab in the school the other day when my friend put her mare out in the field adjacent to it - que my horse with tail straight up in the air piaffe-ing for the olympics! Shame it had absolutely nothing to do with me and I have no idea how to get him to do it again. :)
 
Well, where to start? This level of ignorance, hysteria and just plain rudeness is breathtaking; I commend you.

Spurs, and bits of whatever variety, are tools and like any tool can be used to create, or to destroy. People who do not know how to use things delicately should not be let loose with sophisticated equipment, the analogy could encompass knives and surgeon's scalpels. Anybody who is jabbing with spurs doesn't know how to use them; same goes for misusing a double bridle.

So you think that impulsion should be created by riding Thoroughbreds and feeding the horse high-powered food, do you? Have you ever actually ridden a dressage test? Or even a trained horse? Do you seriously think that getting a horse half out of its mind on sugary feed is GOOD for it? For your information the vast majority of successful dressage horses are VERY hot, go like rockets and are fed VERY well indeed; and would scare the bejasus out of most average riders.

And as for "dressage horses have double bridles on from the age of three", where do you get this information from? This is simply not my experience, and I have worked in dressage all of my life, from breeding to Grand Prix training. And any of my higher level horses go equally well in snaffles, thank you very much - not that a snaffle bit is an any way "kinder" in the wrong hands.

I suggest that you climb down from your high horse and go and ride a real one. Oh, and ameliorate your hectoring, highly innaccurate and rude tone if you actually want anyone to listen to your arguments.
 
Am I the only one who can't the correlation between feeding more and achieving better schooling without spurs? Koen states "riders could feed their horses and allow for a more natural piaffe". I don't understand this? In my opinion, surely if you feed more, you can get more energy but this would be a negative energy.
 
Elbie said:
Am I the only one who can't the correlation between feeding more and achieving better schooling without spurs? Koen states "riders could feed their horses and allow for a more natural piaffe". I don't understand this? In my opinion, surely if you feed more, you can get more energy but this would be a negative energy.
Click to expand...
Perhaps it's supposed to be feel?
 
Cortez said:
Well, where to start? This level of ignorance, hysteria and just plain rudeness is breathtaking; I commend you.

Spurs, and bits of whatever variety, are tools and like any tool can be used to create, or to destroy. People who do not know how to use things delicately should not be let loose with sophisticated equipment, the analogy could encompass knives and surgeon's scalpels. Anybody who is jabbing with spurs doesn't know how to use them; same goes for misusing a double bridle.

So you think that impulsion should be created by riding Thoroughbreds and feeding the horse high-powered food, do you? Have you ever actually ridden a dressage test? Or even a trained horse? Do you seriously think that getting a horse half out of its mind on sugary feed is GOOD for it? For your information the vast majority of successful dressage horses are VERY hot, go like rockets and are fed VERY well indeed; and would scare the bejasus out of most average riders.

And as for "dressage horses have double bridles on from the age of three", where do you get this information from? This is simply not my experience, and I have worked in dressage all of my life, from breeding to Grand Prix training. And any of my higher level horses go equally well in snaffles, thank you very much - not that a snaffle bit is an any way "kinder" in the wrong hands.

I suggest that you climb down from your high horse and go and ride a real one. Oh, and ameliorate your hectoring, highly innaccurate and rude tone if you actually want anyone to listen to your arguments.
Click to expand...

LIKE!
 
Koen said:
I can't agree.

Spurs are totally unnecessary in my opinion.

I believe the rules that spurs are a mandatory requirement for example at the top levels of dressage a complete nonsense. The rules should be changed this is 2014 not the late Middle Ages. The opposite should be in place. Spurs should not be tolerated at all.

I cant agree "in the right hands etc" they simply don't belong anywhere near a horse.

I've never watched a dressage competition at the highest international level where I haven't seen spurs routinely abused. This doesn't mean bleeding sides or marks and gauges necessarily. Insidious, continuous use (contact) as an aid is abuse. Same in show jumping at international level. These are apparently "the right hands" ?

In the realms of the amateur rider this sanctioned abuse is widely copied but it honestly doesn't make any difference who is using them or what contrived reasons they have for using them. Their use is abuse.

A properly schooled, properly fed and fit horse should not need "artificial" aids of any kind. Fine tuning high energy feed for the job at hand and keeping a horse fit is the way, no short cuts at the horses expense.

If the horse or even the rider is not up to the job abusing the horse wont help. Understanding the horses character and working with not against it might be more ideal. Truly phlegmatic horses shouldn't be asked to do anything they aren't up for doing. Nor should riders be involved in an activity on a horse if they can't cope with a job that requires high energy.

As far as mentioned here having extremely short legs or being extremely light as a rider are not a reason to use spurs. An educated well schooled rider on a well schooled horse should have no problems with the rider using only seat and hand aids if need be. They should ride horses with more blood and feed accordingly, or accept their limitations.

Horses will move away from a whip and this is useful in training some youngsters, but it should never be used other than a light tap or gesture on or just behind the leg. Horses don't move away from spurs they cant see them to start with its only contact that will force the horse to move forward. It's also not at all constructive to use spurs instead of a whip as described above either on any horse to teach it to move away from the leg if it doesn't already by instinct.

I can't think of a single good use for spurs, only reasons why they should be banned outright.
Click to expand...

Oh dear... I suspect you have never ridden a highly schooled horse which has sooo many "buttons" its scary. My horse wouldn't know what to do if i gave it a pony club kick, he'd probably throw a wobble and put me on the floor! why? because you have to be precise with him, there is a different spot of about an inch for collected trot vs medium vs extension, then if you happen to apply a fraction too much on one side he will transition up, shift your weight slightly or move the other leg a fraction and you'll have flying changes all over the place! But hey if you want to get the best out of my beautifully schooled ned without them feel free, although I expect he will either put you on the floor for annoying the hell out of him with nondescript aids, or go in to hack mode (don't ware them to hack him) which is Ill just doodle along thank you very much. oh and the whip, not needed for schooling, however on a hack he is half likely to stop or decide to go home, you don't have to touch him with it, in fact DONT touch him with it because that will spark a strop, simply show him it, and he will happily carry on as you wanted.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top