St. Nicholas Abbey

claracanter said:
Poor boy. I hope they know how far to push him and he won't end up like Barbaro who suffered a long time before a decision was made.
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This was my concern from the very beginning.

He is walking out well though in the vid so there is hope, but sadly I remain doubtful. Great to see an update though. It will be amazing if he comes out of it, I sincerely hopes he does.
 
I've just looked back to the date of the opening post. 5 Months. I wonder what that tells us. I wondered if horses take longer for bone fractures to heal, but then remember a horse which was cross tied for 6 weeks, with a fractured pelvis, and it was all but mended.

Alec.
 
Caledonia said:
There's a big difference in healing time between stable hairline fractures and shattered pinned bones.
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A huge difference. Also he was galloping at the time so the bone would have been under massive pressure which bends it slightly so when the bone shatters it shatters bent and pieces will never fit back together properly. This is why 99% of bone shattered horses are put down. It would be interesting to see the shape of the bone fragments, how many they managed to puzzle back into some semblance of form and how many they disgarded as they were too warped. There are also the bits if soft tissue attached to and surrounding the bone, they need rearranged and fixed too.

Part of me wonders if it wiuld have been easier to construct a titanium replacement to replace the bone entirely ...
 
EKW said:
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Part of me wonders if it wiuld have been easier to construct a titanium replacement to replace the bone entirely ...
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I previously suggested a nylon bone, but the end result would be the same thing. Humans and dogs have bone-end replacements, in their hip joints, and as the bone in question is so short, it would effectively be the same thing, but from both ends! I suppose that there's a reason why not. Could it be that within the length of the bone, cartilage or tissue is attached, and that attempting to attach it to a foreign body, would result in rejection? Any vets about on here?

Alec.
 
Just watched the update on him on The Morning Line, the poor horse, obviously still sore, a long way from being improved enough to leave the hospital and has lost a lot of condition which they were trying to cover up by putting a rug on him.

Very sad that this horse has been put through all this, just because you have the money to do this does not make it right !
 
I once put a horse through something similar. He was PTS at the end, but this was 7 months down the line.
It is one if the biggest regrets of my life, but love for the animal can cloud your judgement. If someone is telling you 'there's a chance, there's a chance,' then you'll cling to that and do what you can.
Never again, though.
 
While, I am also in agreement with above [Snow and Teasel] but the horse does not seem depressed, however we don't really know how much he has suffered, it is very difficult, having come so far to stop now, very difficult.
I think he looks worse in walk than he did the last time we saw him.
Thing is he is not probably not even going to be a top class stallion. Maybe just a field ornament.
I really don't know what I would do if he were mine, given that money is probably no longer the issue.
Any sudden downturn in his condition, any further complication, and he will have to be put down.
 
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I had a cat once that was badly injured in a freak accident, I was at work & my partner phoned the vets & told them we were insured; they took her in the animal ambulance. Then kept her hanging on in pain for a fortnight before she was PTS. I kept saying isn't it time now for her to be PTS but they kept on at how she was young & would recover. Now I am suspicious that they were drawing it out as they knew my insurance would pay. Like SnowonSnow I often think about the little cat's suffering, she was so gentle.
Also there could be an element of experimentation by the team of vets treating SNA. Lets face it, a less prominent racehorse racehorse would have been PTS at the scene of the injury.
 
I have just seen St. Nicholas Abbey on the morning line too. He's lost all his muscle tone on his neck, which is not really surprising and he looks so weak. Interesting about the medical grade maggots being put into the cast to eat away the necrotic tissues and that being quite successful. I'm with the rest of you, I don't think it's right to keep the horse going on like this indefinitely and he didn't look good in walk. The vet said how sensible the horse was being by lying down a lot. Poor boy.

SnowonSnow' feels love clouded her/his judgement for what was best for their own horse but I'm not sure if that is the case here. Are egos, potential stud fees or pioneering vets clouding judgement for St.Nicholas Abbey. When will it be time to call it a day? Have any similar situations had a positive outcome?
 
I just watched it and found it really upsetting. So, he has gone off his feet but that is quite acceptable? He looked awful I thought. Because his semen is worth a fortune they can do that to him? I am disgusted with the treating vets as well as Coolmore, may they hang their heads in shame.
 
The horse is in the best possible hands with specialist vets in an state of the art equine facility. The vets have a duty not to allow unacceptable levels of suffering.

He looked awful - no he did not his skin is good, he has lost muscle tone, of course he has what else would you expect on box rest. I have been on house rest all year and I do not have a strong muscle left. That is what happens when human or animal is injured and unable to exercise for a period of time.

He is not suffering, appropriate pain relief will have been in him from the moment he injured himself, his diet will be tailored to his needs and health status.

If you want to see real suffering just have a drive around this morning and see the wretched horses on verges and scrub fields up their knees in water and mud with no hay in sight. There seems to be an awful lot of armchair jockeys, trainers and vets about at the moment judging by the quantity of ridiculous statements regarding this horse, Sprinter Sacre and racing in general. I wish the horse and his connections every success in rehabilitating him.
 
AdorableAlice said:
The horse is in the best possible hands with specialist vets in an state of the art equine facility. The vets have a duty not to allow unacceptable levels of suffering.

He looked awful - no he did not his skin is good, he has lost muscle tone, of course he has what else would you expect on box rest. I have been on house rest all year and I do not have a strong muscle left. That is what happens when human or animal is injured and unable to exercise for a period of time.

He is not suffering, appropriate pain relief will have been in him from the moment he injured himself, his diet will be tailored to his needs and health status.

If you want to see real suffering just have a drive around this morning and see the wretched horses on verges and scrub fields up their knees in water and mud with no hay in sight. There seems to be an awful lot of armchair jockeys, trainers and vets about at the moment judging by the quantity of ridiculous statements regarding this horse, Sprinter Sacre and racing in general. I wish the horse and his connections every success in rehabilitating him.
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Not sure I agree with much in this particular post, but I fear the odds are against full recovery.
 
AdorableAlice said:
The horse is in the best possible hands with specialist vets in an state of the art equine facility. The vets have a duty not to allow unacceptable levels of suffering.

He looked awful - no he did not his skin is good, he has lost muscle tone, of course he has what else would you expect on box rest. I have been on house rest all year and I do not have a strong muscle left. That is what happens when human or animal is injured and unable to exercise for a period of time.

He is not suffering, appropriate pain relief will have been in him from the moment he injured himself, his diet will be tailored to his needs and health status.

If you want to see real suffering just have a drive around this morning and see the wretched horses on verges and scrub fields up their knees in water and mud with no hay in sight. There seems to be an awful lot of armchair jockeys, trainers and vets about at the moment judging by the quantity of ridiculous statements regarding this horse, Sprinter Sacre and racing in general. I wish the horse and his connections every success in rehabilitating him.
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Whilst I agree that a lot of other horses are suffering in other ways, this thread is about St Nicholas Abbey and a horse that lies down other than to eat and go to the toilet is suffering in my opinion. After 6 months of treatment I would imagine there will be a limit to the type of pain relief they can give him now without causing permanent internal damage and he obviously still has a very long way to go in his recovery.

The only reason to keep going will be his potential stallion value, if he was a gelding I'm sure he would have been put down a long time ago.
 
All so often, when a horse breaks down and that in effect is what's happened, then the better way is that they are let down, and even allowed to fall away. The less weight and condition that that horse carries, then the better his chances. A comparatively weak horse will be keeping still, and that's what's needed. It sounds perverse, I grant you, but the repairing process will hastened by a degree of dormancy. There are of course, risks, and his laminitis is one of those risks.

I too am sorry to see him as he is, I too have grave doubts about the ethics involved in this case, and I too suspect that it will all prove to no avail. I will be the first, and possibly the most willing, to eat my words, should I be wrong. I'd be more than happy to believe that his owners were acting in an altruistic manner, and would, if I thought that they were.

Alec.
 
claracanter said:
I have just seen St. Nicholas Abbey on the morning line too. He's lost all his muscle tone on his neck, which is not really surprising and he looks so weak. Interesting about the medical grade maggots being put into the cast to eat away the necrotic tissues and that being quite successful. I'm with the rest of you, I don't think it's right to keep the horse going on like this indefinitely and he didn't look good in walk. The vet said how sensible the horse was being by lying down a lot. Poor boy.

SnowonSnow' feels love clouded her/his judgement for what was best for their own horse but I'm not sure if that is the case here. Are egos, potential stud fees or pioneering vets clouding judgement for St.Nicholas Abbey. When will it be time to call it a day? Have any similar situations had a positive outcome?
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Yes my pony was in a similar situation and he had a positive outcome. I am sure St Nicholas Abbeys owners and vets are doing their best for him and it is only to be expected that he will have lost muscle during his recovery. Sorry if I have made a mess of doing quote but I haven't had much practice at this!
 
Yes he has lost muscle tone,condition etc I would be more alarmed if he was as fat as a house, he looked bright and perky, he is receiving the very best of care, Im sure the second he goes off his feed or spends more time lying down they will do the right thing, I hope they are successful in getting him back to full health.
 
I actually saw this when I played back the racing last evening.
I was pleasantly surprised at how well he looked after reading some of the comments.
Was a little alarmed by the fact he was down eating & also by the look in the boy's eye.
Hope he makes it.
 
Funny isn't it that racing is criticized when horses are destroyed after breaking down yet you try and save them and you still get called up on your decision, you can't bloody win :rolleyes:

Also for anyone interested a horse called Paynter in the States made a remarkable recovery from Colitis and Laminitis to win again on the track, his story is truly inspiring. http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...etes-comeback-with-sizzling-win#ixzz2pYTZU3Dl

At one point, while being treated for colitis, he had his feet fitted with casts after showing signs of the hoof disease laminitis. [...]After taking additional X-rays of the foot and discussing with some foot experts, Dr. Laura (Javsicas) has found out that he has developed (laminitis) in three of his four legs, which is heartbreaking." [...] His weight fell to the 900-pound range before rebounding late in the year. His recovery was voted the 2012 "Moment of the Year" in a poll of fans conducted by the National Thoroughbred Racing Association, and he also won racing's Vox Populi Award.
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It's Me Megan said:
Funny isn't it that racing is criticized when horses are destroyed after breaking down yet you try and save them and you still get called up on your decision, you can't bloody win :rolleyes:



Exactly, had they shot him on the track everyone would have said but pasterns can be mended, they didn't want to spend the money on him.
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Dobiegirl said:
Yes he has lost muscle tone,condition etc I would be more alarmed if he was as fat as a house, he looked bright and perky, he is receiving the very best of care, Im sure the second he goes off his feed or spends more time lying down they will do the right thing, I hope they are successful in getting him back to full health.
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But he has gone off his feet. The vet said he gets up to eat and to go to the loo and then lies down again.
I accept he should be skinny bbut he just looked defeated to me. I think it is cruel and the end does not justify the means.
 
The vet said he was happy he was sensible enough to lie down, when they walked him out he walked well and he seemed bright and alert, he is walked regularly to keep the circulation going, if he was lying down too much that would be a cause for concern, he didnt look defeated to me. He has good horn and sole growth which again supports the theory he is getting better. Im sure they have a date in mind where they want his progress to be and will make the call if necessary.
 
I think they actually showed the film to show that he was progressing well, if things were worse they wouldn't have made & aired the film.
Still think their is an air of experimentation with the horse, but then again that's what happened with Mill Reef & others right in the past like Swynford, who recovered from grave injuries through medical intervention.
 
I agree that it would be odd to air the footage on ch4 if the horse was going downhill and not showing some signs of improvement. It came across that his temperament plays a huge part in decisions to continue treatment as he obviously has a high tolerance of all the procedures he's been subject to. Yes, there is definitely a degree of experimentation; while the horse is comfortable this can't be a bad thing for veterinary medicine and future equines.
I hope that he will come through, good luck and good judgement for his team...
 
Clodagh said:
But he has gone off his feet. The vet said he gets up to eat and to go to the loo and then lies down again.
I accept he should be skinny bbut he just looked defeated to me. I think it is cruel and the end does not justify the means.
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There's no doubt that he's having a rough time but they'll be doing everything possible to keep pain to a minimum and any 'suffering' he's having is very small stuff compared to 10s of thousands of horses around the world in many different situations.

The thing is - with this horse - the owners are prepared to put every possible penny into giving him the best treatment. Vets will learn a lot from this and it may help other (less wealthy) owners and horses in the future. Maybe his injury WAS one that should be considered not treatable - but if no-one ever tries ....
 
So if it is acceptabble, even to be encouraged, to keep a horse alive that can't stand up for any normal length of time? It will at least revolutionise treatment for 'normal' laminitics who I would think most people would agree if they can't stand even with massive pain relief it would be time to admit defeat?
 
I would say it's a good sign if the horse can stand up and lie down - and stand up again. I nursed a yearling filly through a bad stifle injury who couldn't stand for more than about 2 hours - and if you let her stay down for more than 2 hours, she couldn't then get up without major assistance. It took 6 months for box rest (with a little in-hand walking in the second half of the period) before she came 100% sound. Should I have shot her?? As it turns out, she's 4 this year and I will start backing her in the next few weeks!

They're NOT treating this horse with financial gain in mind - the treatment will be costing a small fortune and with NO guarantee he will be capable of natural cover if he comes sound. But it's early days in treating a fracture of this magnitude and the associated complications.

I have just finished treatment of my small terrier whose back leg was badly smashed when he was run over - it took 5 months!! Maybe I should have put him down? Maybe I should have just had the leg amputated (my own vets offered that - the fracture was too bad for them and he had to go to an ortho specialist.)
 
I don't think there can be any doubt that all this is being done to salvage him as a stallion prospect and the cost of his veterinary treatment will be tiny compared to his value as a stallion, if he survives.

I just feel that after the great days that this horse gave them on the racetrack, that he does not deserve to be put through all this now, he is a long way from leaving the vets and seeing a paddock. If he had healed well and not developed laminitis then I would say good on them, but once he developed laminitis I think that was the point to say ' we tried our best' and give him peace. He does not deserve to be guinea pig.
 
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