St. Nicholas Abbey

[doriangrey]

I know nothing about racing but have read the thread with interest and have been astounded with the knowledge on here - particularly about breeding lines. Anyway, I'm so sorry that a beloved horse that meant so much to so many has been lost, but I have to admit that I didn't know of the horse. I don't think that matters except that a dear friend has gone. I do have a couple of questions and I hope not to upset anyone. I know that only offspring that are from natural coverings are allowed to be registered/to race - why is that? Also, would the stud have taken and frozen his semen just so his bloodlline could at least be carried on? Not for racing obviously - but why is the rule about natural coverings so set in stone?

 

[christine48]

Poor horse had been through a lot, at least he's at peace now.

 

[Clodagh]

It is limited to natural because they are quite enough shenanigans in the thoroughbred breeding world without sperm in tubes being used!
Seriously it is intended to stop one stallion fathering all the foals, Sadlers Wells for instance could have fathered 2 or 3000 foals a year which wouldn't have done a lot for the gene pool.
I do hear that a lot of TB stallions do understand the point of a dummy mare, although they shouldn't!
There would be no point continuing his bloodline if the offspring can't race, non racing tbs are worth nothing compared to the sort of stud fee he would have commanded - which was entirely why he was tortured for so long at the vets, not through any sense of love.

 

[dizzyneddy]

I cannot believe how callous some of the comments are in response to Nic's death. Do the authors ever pause to think they don't know who will read their posts? Who is sat at the keyboard with a heavy heart and a sense of loss? There are many members of the racing and bloodstock world who post and read HHO. For goodness sake have a little compassion for them.

Totally agree - its sad for everyone connected to him particularly the lad who used to care for him whilst in training, it doesn't matter how much an animal is worth you have to give them a chance. If l had the money l'd go to the ends of the earth to help save my horse even if there was only a small glimmer of hope. Although the likes of big operations like Coolmore can spare no expense anyone in the same position would try to save their animals life whether they own just one or several horses. If St Nicholas was so bad l don't think that they would have put him through everything. Sadly injuries like he has had increase the chance of complications & as we've all read the poor horse had more than his fair share & has sadly succumbed in the end. He's now at peace & we should rejoice what a lovely top performing racehorse he was & not condemn the actions his connections choose at the end of the day he had a top medical team & doubt the vets would have kept treatment up if they thought there was no hope. RIP brave lad

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Also, would the stud have taken and frozen his semen just so his bloodlline could at least be carried on? Not for racing obviously - but why is the rule about natural coverings so set in stone?

The T.B Racing industry is massive worldwide, and natural coverings are set in stone to ensure the support of that industry, and it will never be different. No cloning! If the T.B. s are not Registered they cannot race except on unlicenced tracks, but the big money is from racing on the flat, and in the breeding industry.
Before DNA became so intelligent, there is no doubt that shenanigans took place especially years ago, but it is all highly controlled, and the actual covering has to be witnessed etc etc.
As there are already a limited number of T.B. bloodlines there will be no problem of losing a rare bloodline, and there never was any guarantee that he would sire anything out of the ordinary.
No one will keep his sperm, it is of no value, though no doubt there will be rumours, a bit like Shergar.
Some of them may be trained to the dummy, I am not sure, because presumably they need to check motility [sperm activity].

 

[doriangrey]

It is limited to natural because they are quite enough shenanigans in the thoroughbred breeding world without sperm in tubes being used!
Seriously it is intended to stop one stallion fathering all the foals, Sadlers Wells for instance could have fathered 2 or 3000 foals a year which wouldn't have done a lot for the gene pool.
I do hear that a lot of TB stallions do understand the point of a dummy mare, although they shouldn't!
There would be no point continuing his bloodline if the offspring can't race, non racing tbs are worth nothing compared to the sort of stud fee he would have commanded - which was entirely why he was tortured for so long at the vets, not through any sense of love.

Thanks for replying, I do appreciate it. Wouldn't DNA testing sort out the problems though? Also with this lovely horse could his genes (frozen semen) have been put towards mares for eventing for instance? I think I'm saying does this line die with him, poor fellow, or will his line carry on at all? I do realise this off topic, sorry.

 

[doriangrey]

The T.B Racing industry is massive worldwide, and natural coverings are set in stone to ensure the support of that industry, and it will never be different. No cloning! If the T.B. s are not Registered they cannot race except on unlicenced tracks, but the big money is from racing on the flat, and in the breeding industry.
Before DNA became so intelligent, there is no doubt that shenanigans took place especially years ago, but it is all highly controlled, and the actual covering has to be witnessed etc etc.
As there are already a limited number of T.B. bloodlines there will be no problem of losing a rare bloodline, and there never was any guarantee that he would sire anything out of the ordinary.
No one will keep his sperm, it is of no value, though no doubt there will be rumours, a bit like Shergar.

Just saw this, thanks. I am truly ignorant of racing although my FIL lives across the road (literally) from the bloodstock sales in Doncaster. I have lived in Redcar 5 minutes from the racetrack, now live 10 mins from Ballinrobe races and OH works in Galway, so minutes from the Galway races. I have never yet been to the races in all of my 50 years! I do own a thoroughbred though, totally off topic but just reading this thread has opened my eyes to such a knowledge of bloodlines/history.

 

[Alec Swan]

There you are; "Told you so"!

Alec.

 

[gadetra]

Sorry to hear the horse is dead but not surprised. Should have been done a long time ago.

He is at peace now R.I.P.

 

[Clodagh]

Thanks for replying, I do appreciate it. Wouldn't DNA testing sort out the problems though? Also with this lovely horse could his genes (frozen semen) have been put towards mares for eventing for instance? I think I'm saying does this line die with him, poor fellow, or will his line carry on at all? I do realise this off topic, sorry.

He is closely related to a lot of other top stallions so his line will be OK. Yes, DNA testing is now used to prove parentage so you safely agree with your horses alleged breeding nowadays!

 

[Koen]

The T.B Racing industry is massive worldwide, and natural coverings are set in stone to ensure the support of that industry, and it will never be different.

I've always wondered what the point was exactly. Surely if a horse can run and beat other horses it's a race horse no matter what it's breeding.

I understand if you are covering your mare you want to make sure its what you are getting, DNA testing can makes this worry redundant but why the obsession with registering and breeding within a closed stud book?

Pedigree horses exposed?

BTW I hold no truck with anyone who backs a horse and races it as a two year old. Why in God's name is this practise not outlawed, races for two year olds ended?

These sorry tragedies and dramas seems to be largely unquestioned by the establishment, and only noticed when a well known horse is involved.

TB's are weaker, lighter boned with a narrower gene pools than most breeds bred in such numbers today and yet are subjected to incredible stresses at ridiculously young ages well before breeds that are far more robust.

The racing industry to me is pure kakha and needs to clean up its act.

 

[Alec Swan]

Koen, there are those on here better qualified than I to offer opposing views to every one of your paragraphs above!

The only thing that I would say is that the current genre of racing the Thoroughbred is such that success and gambling pay scant regard to the well being of the horse, as a breed. That the very large part of those who are directly involved in the care and maintenance of their charges might agree with certain parts of your post, these people will very soon be replaced by others, should they refuse to provide the animals which are needed for the industry.

Your observations regarding the racing of 2 yos? I wouldn't want a youngster of mine raced at that age, but others do, the horses are their property, and if the chose to shoot the horse before it's 6 years old, as often happens, then that's their choice.

Your very last sentence? You'll be a long time waiting for that to happen.

Alec.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

I've always wondered what the point was exactly. Surely if a horse can run and beat other horses it's a race horse no matter what it's breeding.

OK, not going to pick up on any points other than this one ..........
Yes you can race any horse at unlicenced tracks, in the UK this racing is known as flapping, and it could be compared to Point to Points without the fences. And first prize is about £200!
I used to train two flapping horses, they were both T.B. , one was unregistered, by Green Desert, he was never put in to training with a Licenced Trainer because he was not the greatest looker [conformation], however he was fast enough to win at a mile in modest company, and was always sound. He must have cost his owner breeder about £5,000 and we picked him up for about £650.
The second was a mare with top breeding and a poor record in racing, she had eventually been banned for bad behaviour on the racecourse, so we got her for a reasonable price [£700], she had originally been sold at Tattersalls for £140,000 guineas as an unraced two year old! She was a really good long distance horse, just had had a difficult life, unfortunately the owner/s ran out of patience.
Now we did not do anything illegal, but we were not licensed trainers, no proper facilities, no medical records etc, but those horse could never be raced on licensed tracks under Jockey Club rules because they had not been subject to scrutiny throughout their career, and had raced on unlicenced tracks. That is just one way the Racing Industry works to try to "keep its act clean" and sustain the structure of the industry.
And they will have to look again at this "scrutiny" business , as recently some horses have been getting steroids when they have been sent out of a licenced yard to a re-hab yard. Performance enhancing drugs are not allowed in UK racing.

 

[Mithras]

TB's are weaker, lighter boned with a narrower gene pools than most breeds bred in such numbers today and yet are subjected to incredible stresses at ridiculously young ages well before breeds that are far more robust.

That flies in the face of basic biology. In human runners, its invariably essential to place enough stress on the developing athlete's body from about the age 9 onwards, so that the correct dendritic connections to enable the excitable nerve impulse potential are maximised, and to strengthen bones and tendons to enable training to higher levels of performance in adulthood. British coaches now lament the dearth of young male athletes coming to them in particular, because at age 13 or 14 it is simply too late to make up the deficit caused by being ferried about everywhere by car and spending free time indoors with computer games. And for any athletic activity, any biological creature needs the genetic advantage of being fast but strong - do you seriously think that heavier build means greater ability to propel forwards without injury at speed beyond the very shortest sprint distances? Do you think that Paula Radcliffe would have been a more successful athlete had she been heavier of build and started training in her mid twenties instead of aged 8?

Ah you will say, but humans can speak out if they feel pain from an injury. That is why racehorses are regularly x rayed and scanned and monitored by expert stable staff who have genuine knowledge in practice. But injuries happen in mammals - some of the worst injuries I've heard of recently happened to horses turned out in the field. What I would be concerned about is the mass stud farms on the Continent producing warmbloods dressage horses and to a lesser extent showjumpers, to be marketable at 3, 4 and 5 years of age by pushing them into advanced movement too early and by not giving them enough turnout to stimulate sufficient bone growth to cope with it.

This is basic A level biology - it is nothing new and a lot of it should be general knowledge in a reasonably well educated person. If you are Dutch or Belgian, as your username suggests, then you will almost certainly have been educated to know this stuff, and I suggest you revisit your studies.

Very small numbers of TB racehorses are trained seriously as two year olds, and it is mainly the ones who are bred to mature fast and race at sprint and mile distances. ie those which show a natural genetic precocity. There are plenty of examples of two years olds who have raced at two who have gone on to have full working lives. Admittedly I've only worked at top racing yards (during the university holidays when I was a student) but I never saw any of the examples of ignorant cruelty that you tend to see on livery yards full of happy hackers. Such as not turning horses out til midday and leaving them without hay until then because the owner can't be bothered to get out of bed. Or keeping horses with Cushing alive even though they suffer from laminitis. Or injecting riding club level horses with steroids because the insurance will pay for a certain number and the owner wants to ride an unsound horse. I know Aidan O'Brian is a vet and I know they were all very fond of St Nicholas Abbey, whereas the market for stallions is really in early maturing shorter distance horses. But they have all done things with their lives which encompass real achievements, as opposed to backbiting on internet sites.

Some of the uninformed opinions on this thread make you embarrassed to post on here. St Nicholas Abbey so very nearly made it, in fact arguably he did make it, as he was able to walk out of his stable on the previously fractured leg. If you never have to deal with one of your horses getting a serious colic, then you will be a lucky person. To suggest that a horse should be pts simply because a course of treatment might not succeed to me is a bit of an odd reaction; I honestly wonder about some of the multitude of posts about pts horses on HHO. Is it some kind of God complex at play? Or Munchausen's by proxy? ie because you have the power to kill an animal, you should demonstrate that power?

 

[Koen]

Mithras I am fully aware of the biology of the developing horse having studied horse management, breeding, appraisal and performance testing in the Netherlands under the auspices of the KWPN. Not a closed studbook.

Im afraid none of what you say makes sense at all in any other equestrian industry other than perhaps the racing one.

That's to say no one else tries to make sorry excuses based on commonly understood developmental biology, in as far as you are speaking for the racing industry here. It seems to me where any science in the TB racing industry is geared to the maximisation of the animal in terms of financial gain and soonest, in the riding/sport horse industry the science is geared to the welfare and soundness of a long lived performance animal.

I can think of instances where this is abused in for instance warm-blood sport horse production too but it's not generally the accepted method. For example where young horses are prepared for auction by being asked far too much at far too early an age. In most cases these horses on purchase have to then have their training suitably delayed by going back a few years to address any possible future damage if not too late. The warm-blood does make a suitable comparison, though. It too is becoming more and more of an industry.

It's interesting to note only in the racing industry is there talk of "early maturing" TBs. No one else believes this. In fact TB's are considered anything but. Where precocity is found in warm bloods rather extreme caution is called for for these horses in fact present more ability (liability) than their developing frames can tolerate and are therefore more at risk of damage, not suitable to be asked more than other horses of the same age. Why is this not so in the TB industry? Why are these so called "early maturing" ones raced at two and on until they break? The "lucky" negligible tiny percentage of any retired after a few short years to be used at stud. If greedy enough even these are raced into the ground as perhaps is the case with the unfortunate St Nicholas Abbey.

TBs are racing generally by the time they are three, more than full impact on all their joints. Serious exercise comes later much later for warm-bloods or sport horse "industry", years later. Three is when they are only backed if they are ready. The approach is one of extreme caution and progressive development, not ridden until they break from the minute they're backed. It's not even the weight they are or aren't carrying in race horses its the repeated more than maximum exertion required backed up by a very sad but happily condoned use of the whip. Racing two year olds is simply criminal and the amount of money offered as an incentive to do so is similarly so.

Using Warm bloods again as an example, they are today almost TBs, hot bloods in everything but name. You do have greater variety in genetics but for the modern sport horse there is a heavy reliance on hot bloods, still coming in thick and strong. "Warm-bloods" could be considered a healthier reinvention of the TB but this is to say they generally can be considered many of them to mature at around about the same rate as TBs do and more and more so too. More and more care is thus needed in their development.

 

[Mithras]

Mithras I am fully aware of the biology of the developing horse having studied horse management, breeding, appraisal and performance testing in the Netherlands under the auspices of the KWPN. Not a closed studbook.

Im afraid none of what you say makes sense at all in any other equestrian industry other than perhaps the racing one.

That would be because we are talking about racing, and racehorses, in this thread.

That's to say no one else tries to make sorry excuses based on commonly understood developmental biology, in as far as you are speaking for the racing industry here. It seems to me where any science in the TB racing industry is geared to the maximisation of the animal in terms of financial gain and soonest, in the riding/sport horse industry the science is geared to the welfare and soundness of a long lived performance animal.

You must have "studied under the auspices" of another KWPN than most people on here use the acronym to refer to it.

I can think of instances where this is abused in for instance warm-blood sport horse production too but it's not generally the accepted method. For example where young horses are prepared for auction by being asked far too much at far too early an age. In most cases these horses on purchase have to then have their training suitably delayed by going back a few years to address any possible future damage if not too late. The warm-blood does make a suitable comparison, though. It too is becoming more and more of an industry.

It's interesting to note only in the racing industry is there talk of "early maturing" TBs. No one else believes this. In fact TB's are considered anything but. Where precocity is found in warm bloods rather extreme caution is called for for these horses in fact present more ability (liability) than their developing frames can tolerate and are therefore more at risk of damage, not suitable to be asked more than other horses of the same age. Why is this not so in the TB industry? Why are these so called "early maturing" ones raced at two and on until they break? The "lucky" negligible tiny percentage of any retired after a few short years to be used at stud. If greedy enough even these are raced into the ground as perhaps is the case with the unfortunate St Nicholas Abbey.

TBs are racing generally by the time they are three, more than full impact on all their joints. Serious exercise comes later much later for warm-bloods or sport horse "industry", years later. Three is when they are only backed if they are ready. The approach is one of extreme caution and progressive development, not ridden until they break from the minute they're backed. It's not even the weight they are or aren't carrying in race horses its the repeated more than maximum exertion required backed up by a very sad but happily condoned use of the whip. Racing two year olds is simply criminal and the amount of money offered as an incentive to do so is similarly so.

Using Warm bloods again as an example, they are today almost TBs, hot bloods in everything but name. You do have greater variety in genetics but for the modern sport horse there is a heavy reliance on hot bloods, still coming in thick and strong. "Warm-bloods" could be considered a healthier reinvention of the TB but this is to say they generally can be considered many of them to mature at around about the same rate as TBs do and more and more so too. More and more care is thus needed in their development.

Tbh I think you should go back to the equine industry and get a bit more experience, or actually study a properly recognised qualification (combined with some experience) because your statements above are full of inaccuracies. Its not my job to point out where, or to educate you for free. And it would take too long.

Aidan O Brian, for example, is not only a top racehorse trainer, but a qualified vet. That means years of university level study and then years of experience training horses at the top level. Are you seriously suggesting that you, who from what you say, has little competition riding experience and no proper qualifications, know better than him?

You might wish to gain a little humility, if you find that possible. Much of the above reads like a slightly poor effort a secondary school pupil might put into an essay. I'm trying to think of an equivalent word in Dutch for cringeworthy, but I do think ontwetendheid is the most apt I can come up with.

And in case you have forgotten, this thread isn't about promoting your own brand of personal interest, but about a much loved and valued racehorse, who has recently lost his fight to recover from injury to colic.

 

[Caledonia]

Very good posts, Mithras. Absolutely agree with you.

 

[Koen]

Not worth a response. No wonder the racing industry is in the doldrums it is. About as useful or modern as a phone box.

 

[Caledonia]

Not worth a response. No wonder the racing industry is in the doldrums it is. About as useful or modern as a phone box.

Racing is hardly 'in the doldrums'.

I'd say that refers more to where your spurious posts have landed.

 

[Alec Swan]

Not worth a response. No wonder the racing industry is in the doldrums it is. About as useful or modern as a phone box.

So why respond? Tell me now, where do you stand on the question of Ragwort?

Alec.

 

[Koen]

So why respond? Tell me now, where do you stand on the question of Ragwort?

Alec.

I would hardly call that much of a response. Good question though.

Just in case this isn't rhetorical amusement, you never can tell, "stinking willie" as our American cousins call it or Jacobaea vulgaris just doesn't grow in our area at all.

 

[fburton]

That flies in the face of basic biology. In human runners, its invariably essential to place enough stress on the developing athlete's body from about the age 9 onwards, so that the correct dendritic connections to enable the excitable nerve impulse potential are maximised,

I am a bit puzzled by this statement. Do you have a reference to hand to explain what you mean? No worries if not.

 

[amandap]

That flies in the face of basic biology. In human runners, its invariably essential to place enough stress on the developing athlete's body from about the age 9 onwards, so that the correct dendritic connections to enable the excitable nerve impulse potential are maximised, and to strengthen bones and tendons to enable training to higher levels of performance in adulthood.

Can comparisons be made here though? As someone who knows little about the science I see some major differences. Children don't have their non training movement restricted (stabling) nor do they carry weights on their backs or have their movement influenced directly by weight and other forces from bit, reins, rider etc.

 

[Mithras]

I am a bit puzzled by this statement. Do you have a reference to hand to explain what you mean? No worries if not.

tbh I can't be bothered looking up a reference for you. Its the development of basic motor skills linking your fine motor memory in the brain to the excitable nerve impulses which trigger muscle contraction. I would have thought this was pretty much general knowledge - how do you think your brain tells your body to move? If you don't develop these connections young enough, you are unlikely ever to do so to the extent to enable you to be competitive in sport - not always, there are extremely talented exceptions, but that's why its generally though best to develop some sporting experience at a young age.

Amandap above - I would have thought comparison in all weight bearing mammals was valid. Haven't there been studies conducted which have been oft quoted on here in the past showing that there was no greater incidence of bone injury to young started TB racehorses than in other horses?

 

[fburton]

tbh I can't be bothered looking up a reference for you. Its the development of basic motor skills linking your fine motor memory in the brain to the excitable nerve impulses which trigger muscle contraction. I would have thought this was pretty much general knowledge - how do you think your brain tells your body to move? If you don't develop these connections young enough, you are unlikely ever to do so to the extent to enable you to be competitive in sport - not always, there are extremely talented exceptions, but that's why its generally though best to develop some sporting experience at a young age.

To be clear, it was your reference to stress that puzzled me the most. It is clear to me why movement would be necessary to establish normal neural connections, but not why additional or higher than normal levels of stress was required.

 

[amandap]

Amandap above - I would have thought comparison in all weight bearing mammals was valid. Haven't there been studies conducted which have been oft quoted on here in the past showing that there was no greater incidence of bone injury to young started TB racehorses than in other horses?

Those studies only compare some bones (?cannon etc.) I think. It is well studied that bone will demineralize with no or reduced weight bearing and exercize but how many studies have been done on the effects of unstable extra weight and directive forces added on the whole body? I am fascinated to think there have been studies on nerve paths and ligaments/tendons.

Sadly I don't know nearly enough but my gut tells me that any animal moving in an independent, self directed manner has to be subject to different forces than one influenced by and compensating for a passenger.

 

[Mithras]

To be clear, it was your reference to stress that puzzled me the most. It is clear to me why movement would be necessary to establish normal neural connections, but not why additional or higher than normal levels of stress was required.

Stress as in terms of causing the burden of movement. Its generally referred to as putting the body under stress.

What do you mean by "normal neural connections"? Because obviously that differs. What was once "normal" before we reached the present situation of most children being driven to school by car and children playing outside less is not "normal" today.

What is your point in terms of the death of St Nicholas Abbey?

 

[amandap]

I was just talking around the subject.

Activities that entail periods of high stress points on the body are bound to produce some catastrophic fractures and injuries no matter how good the science and practice sadly.

 

[Mithras]

Those studies only compare some bones (?cannon etc.) I think. It is well studied that bone will demineralize with no or reduced weight bearing and exercize but how many studies have been done on the effects of unstable extra weight and directive forces added on the whole body? I am fascinated to think there have been studies on nerve paths and ligaments/tendons.

Sadly I don't know nearly enough but my gut tells me that any animal moving in an independent, self directed manner has to be subject to different forces than one influenced by and compensating for a passenger.

I would be surprised if there were not some studies into that somewhere. Finding them might be a different matter!

I wonder whether correct schooling and a rider helping a horse balance can actually create less risk. Especially if the rider is very light but effective and the schooling built up incrementally. Plenty of horses injure themselves in the field after all.

 

[Mariposa]

St Nicholas Abbey so very nearly made it, in fact arguably he did make it, as he was able to walk out of his stable on the previously fractured leg. If you never have to deal with one of your horses getting a serious colic, then you will be a lucky person. To suggest that a horse should be pts simply because a course of treatment might not succeed to me is a bit of an odd reaction; I honestly wonder about some of the multitude of posts about pts horses on HHO. Is it some kind of God complex at play? Or Munchausen's by proxy? ie because you have the power to kill an animal, you should demonstrate that power?

Brilliantly put.

People seem to get so hung up on the fact St Nicholas Abbey was valuable, does that mean the vets/his grooms/owners are automatically in the wrong for trying to save him? They could afford it, clearly the surgeons felt they could save him - and had it not been for colic he would have made it through. It's sheer bad luck, a tragedy, that he got colic - but it happens - to horses of all values and breeds.