Stabled horses and the Animal Welfare Act...your thoughts??

Mine live out 24/7, along with several others as a herd, and were last seen wandering off up the sheep trail into the gorse for the night. I have stables and bring them in when the vet, farrier, dentist and so on are due. They also come into the yard to be groomed or worked. This suits them and me very nicely.
 
I think the awa is even more applicable since we've had advances in vet care, understanding of behaviour, less need for horses to truely 'work' to earn their keep (even a professionals competition horse doesn't need to be delivering the milk 12 hours a day) etc.
There's negative welfare implications at both ends of the equine class system (over produced 6/7 figure horses that never have the sun on their backs or a good mutual groom, down to gypsy ponies in bogs without feed.)
 
Bonkers2 said:
PS Some trainers do turn them out, I have worked in both types of yards and dont see any difference with the "happiness", in fact the ones that had no turnout were looked after better generally. I think that was general management being poor in the yard that did turnout: their horses were turned out whether they liked it or not, and some did not.
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See, I do find that it all comes down to the concept of wellbeing. I'm not anthropomorphising here, but for humans wellbeing is seen as all encompassing, mental and physical. So should it be for horses and indeed any animal. Emotional wellbeing is crucial, and standing in a stall all day except to be exercised is not tending to emotional wellbeing. I wonder what the ratio was on the turnout v's no turnout yard of stable vices, ulcers, injuries. It would be interesting to know. I've kept my horse on box rest, I'm incredibly lucky he adores his box, loves to lie down, loves to chill out in there, and as much as he is either waiting at the gate for me or gallops to the gate without fail to be bought in, I am under no illusions he also loves and benefits from his time out, he bucks he farts he does the wall of death, he sets other horses off bucking and farting... I could never take that from him no matter how much he loved his stable, and if commercially or privately stabling 24/7 was the only way I could keep a horse, I'd take up knitting.
 
In my opinion, there are some issues with the Animal Welfare Act (2006), mainly that it is often hard to enforce when people are breaking the law, and, in many ways, it is too general, as it covers animals in all settings, from pets to lab animals to farm animals to animals in zoos.

It's worth bearing in mind that in actual practice pet animals gain very little protection from the act. Dogs, for example, are generally considered a social animal, but it is see as perfectly ok to keep one dog and rarely allow it to play/interact with other dogs. It's also seen as ok to leave a dog alone for several hours while the owners go out to work. In my opinion, keeping a lone dog in this way does contravene both the letter and the spirit of the act, but no-one would ever police it and prosecute it in this way. You would need to have a home office license to do this to a dog in a lab for 24 hours, but it's seen as fine for someone to do in their own home.

I don't think the way the act is phrased insists on 24/7 turnout, stabling (especially in extreme weather) can be more appropriate. However, if a horse is always stabled, then I agree that this should be considered breaking the law. However, a prosecution would never be achieved for this reason.

The problem, IMO, is not really the act as such- it is a good idea to have general protection for all animals in law. The problem is that pet animals are not protected and no-one is willing to take responsibility for doing this. We do tolerate things for pets that we would never tolerate for zoo animals or livestock (as an example). I do think there should be specific provision for pets in law (or at least vertebrate pets) explaining exactly how they should be cared for, but, more importantly, the law should state who is responsible for policing this, and when they should act. All too often, charities are relied upon to enforce the law, meaning enforcement is patchy and often ineffective.
 
SpringArising said:
The thing is, though, we still have our freedom. We are still given a choice of where we live, who we live with and how we live. Horses aren't.
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That's really the point, the sort of horses I have are a human creation they are not designed to live on the steppe .
To be clear my horses get a lot of turnout .
But I don't consider for example being out 24/7 in summer being driven mad by flys better than coming in the stable .
 
The individual turnout thing is a hard one I like all my horses to go out in a group but there's no doubt turning out fit horses together is a considerable risk .
I brought my new horse home today he's an expensive horse (advanced eventer ) he's used to going out alone , what do you do for the best ?
 
Bonkers2 said:
PS Some trainers do turn them out, I have worked in both types of yards and dont see any difference with the "happiness", in fact the ones that had no turnout were looked after better generally. I think that was general management being poor in the yard that did turnout: their horses were turned out whether they liked it or not, and some did not.
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I don't think any of the horses developed stable vices, [I only recall one that cribbed], and ulcers were never mentioned, to be honest I have seen more leisure horses cribbing than racehorses. I only worked at a few smaller flat yards, and again, they were all kept pretty occupied, I used to buy an odd one off the track as they say on here, and they were fine, but then I'd not buy one that showed "behaviours"
 
Just to be a bore, I'd almost turn the original post around and say does having horses turned out in a group in a small mud pit go against the act?

Which situation would you rather be in? Dry and fed up, or cold, wet, up to your knees in mud and fed up. I know which one I'd rather have
 
Goldenstar said:
The individual turnout thing is a hard one I like all my horses to go out in a group but there's no doubt turning out fit horses together is a considerable risk .
I brought my new horse home today he's an expensive horse (advanced eventer ) he's used to going out alone , what do you do for the best ?
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Do you not have a placid horse you could turn him out with? I think some real company would be really nice for him after being alone for (what I presume) a long time.
 
Goldenstar said:
But I don't consider for example being out 24/7 in summer being driven mad by flys better than coming in the stable .
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Fly mask and shelter suits him fine not to mention freedom of running around interacting with his friends as opposed to being shut in a stable for hours on end. Know what he'd choose if he could talk !
 
SpringArising said:
Do you not have a placid horse you could turn him out with? I think some real company would be really nice for him after being alone for (what I presume) a long time.
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Not really, Fatty is the best bet I'll have to wait until he's having a holiday and has no shoes which will be shortly but that won't be for long as Fatty has to go into a track system as soon as the spring starts .
It's a big big dilemma .
 
As any farrier will tell you, keeping them sound at this time of year is a struggle. The constant wet/dry does hooves no favours. If you have an expensive, competition/event horse in fittening work, it's better to have him ready in the stable for work in the morning. Horses are happy in if they have company and some forage just as they are out. There is far more capacity for injury in a soggy bog than in a stable. As for stable balanced herds, I have yet to see this on a livery yard. No one with an expensive horse wants to see all their hard work put at risk. Some of the horses I see in full work would relish the opportunity to be bored in a stable! You have to provide a work/life balance for them IMO
 
Fellewell said:
If you have an expensive, competition/event horse in fittening work, it's better to have him ready in the stable for work in the morning.
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For the owner it's better.

No one with an expensive horse wants to see all their hard work put at risk.
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Once again, practicality for the owner is being put before the welfare of the horse.

Some of the horses I see in full work would relish the opportunity to be bored in a stable!
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Can't for the life of me work out how you think this.

No one enjoys being bored, whether it be a fish, a dog, a human or a horse.

Moreover, turnout isn't just about being mentally stimulating. It's about their physical health, too.
 
SpringArising said:
For the owner it's better.



Once again, practicality for the owner is being put before the welfare of the horse.



Can't for the life of me work out how you think this.

No one enjoys being bored, whether it be a fish, a dog, a human or a horse.

Moreover, turnout isn't just about being mentally stimulating. It's about their physical health, too.
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If you enjoy riding/competing these things have to be considered. Fail to see how his welfare is compromised? Horses in work don't have time to get bored, that's why I included the work/life balance bit.
 
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Goldenstar said:
Horses like resting they do it in a field they do it in stables .
I simply don't get these anti stabling fundamentalists .
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Totally agree.
Before we moved house, our horses were kept out 24/7 in a large field with a field shelter and extra forage in winter.
Now they are out during the day and in at night.
I honestly can't see any difference in their behaviour/attitudes/whatever. They hack out and hunt every week and seem very biddable.
They do seem to like coming in when the weather's bad. They are stabled in a block and can see each other.
As far as I can see, they have everything they need. They have company, food, foot care, vet care, rugs as necessary, grooming, pampering...
I have absolutely no qualms about keeping them stabled as I do.
 
What annoys me is that stable design for the most part takes no account of horses natural behaviours and simple changes that could cost very little or nothing could improve an animal quality of life.
I did the tour round the trainers yards is Newmarket several years ago and the difference in the yards and the horses apparent ease not only depended on the buildings but the way they were managed. My favourite was a state of the art barn with wide walkways, plenty of natural light, grills between boxes and an extra top door at the back of the box. Not everyone has lots of money but putting extra natural light may be actually cheaper than a solid roof, an extra top door at the back of the box £200.
My land is clay and very wet so mine are kept in groups in barns, with open front and back and a mud play area. Its cheaper and it keeps them moving so warmer, if they get on outside the chances are they will do well together inside as long as there is plenty to eat.
 
Fellewell said:
If you enjoy riding/competing these things have to be considered. Fail to see how his welfare is compromised? Horses in work don't have time to get bored, that's why I included the work/life balance bit.
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What type of work are you talking about here? Most horses are ridden for an hour/two hours tops. What are they doing for the other 22 hours a day?

To clarify, I don't have so much of an issue with horses who are out during the day and in at night. What I think is absolutely barbaric is to keep a horse locked up for more or less 24 hours a day.

Would you think that acceptable for a dog?
 
My 4 are living out on 10 hilly acres in winter then rotating on 4 summer acres. The imported inter ii dressage pony loves it.

been on yards promising turnout all year, but that then say no turnout nov to april if its wet!
so its not always owners choice to keep their horses in.....
 
Many warmbloods do not thrive living out in the cold and wet. I have competition horses that I have bred, reared, produced and several kept in their retirement in their 20's. As youngsters they spent most of their lives outside except in the worst of the wet winter weather. As competition horses they spent most of their lives in stables with daily turnout. As retired horses they pretty much have the choice. What do they choose? As soon as it rains they hang about by the gates calling to come in. If I leave a stable door open often they will not even venture out onto the yard. If left out they will often jump over the gate and put themselves away. I think that says it all. Horses become accustomed to their lifestyles and to enforce change because a human being puts human thoughts into a horse brain is pretty stupid aka cruel. We now have a breed of horse that is bred for sport work and to insist that that horse lives the lifestyle of a native pony may be failing to provide for its needs as much as failing to feed etc.
 
SpringArising said:
What type of work are you talking about here? Most horses are ridden for an hour/two hours tops. What are they doing for the other 22 hours a day?

To clarify, I don't have so much of an issue with horses who are out during the day and in at night. What I think is absolutely barbaric is to keep a horse locked up for more or less 24 hours a day.

Would you think that acceptable for a dog?
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You could enjoy a day's hunting if your horse is fit enough. Look at the other disciplines on boards, they keep busy enough. For fittening work, which is what I mentioned, you would need to split those two hours to am and pm. Most yards have horse walkers these days. Horses don't stand around looking bored at le Cadre Noir, it's that work/life balance again.
Horses turned out in pairs on dry days/well drained paddocks for short periods works for some but the grazing is checked and maintained meticulously.

Horses kept on a budget are a whole different argument and 'freedom of expression' is often used as an argument for chucking them out and leaving them there. Many yard owners insist on stabling during winter but if you rush down to the farm at 6am and turn your horse out in the pouring rain/pitch black can you see what state the field is in? Do you have time to inspect it for broken fencing or sinkholes etc? You should pay for part/full livery if this is the case.

Yes, I have expensive purpose-built outdoor kennels and runs but I don't have an indoor cage.
 
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I have in the past kept my horses together with access to the open stables 24/7. Unfortunately when you have horses with differing needs; a fat Connemara who needs a restricted diet, a geriatric who needs to eat constantly, and a fit young eventer who loves to play and needs to eat but gets distracted by company - keeping them like that is hard.

One gets fat, one gets thin and the other drives the other two potty and doesn't eat enough.

They are now stabled individually overnight. The old boy gets an exclusive haynet, which he can eat slowly through the night. The fatty gets him limited haynet, which is treble netted and the young eventer is kept out the way so everybody can have some rest.

They're all good friends - but sometimes need their own space. Sometimes stabling is a necessary evil and an essential part of management.
 
Fellewell said:
You could enjoy a day's hunting if your horse is fit enough. Look at the other disciplines on boards, they keep busy enough. For fittening work, which is what I mentioned, you would need to split those two hours to am and pm. Most yards have horse walkers these days. Horses don't stand around looking bored at le Cadre Noir, it's that work/life balance again.
Horses turned out in pairs on dry days/well drained paddocks for short periods works for some but the grazing is checked and maintained meticulously.

Horses kept on a budget are a whole different argument and 'freedom of expression' is often used as an argument for chucking them out and leaving them there. Many yard owners insist on stabling during winter but if you rush down to the farm at 6am and turn your horse out in the pouring rain/pitch black can you see what state the field is in? Do you have time to inspect it for broken fencing or sinkholes etc? You should pay for part/full livery if this is the case.

Yes, I have expensive purpose-built outdoor kennels and runs but I don't have an indoor cage.
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GinaGeo said:
I have in the past kept my horses together with access to the open stables 24/7. Unfortunately when you have horses with differing needs; a fat Connemara who needs a restricted diet, a geriatric who needs to eat constantly, and a fit young eventer who loves to play and needs to eat but gets distracted by company - keeping them like that is hard.

One gets fat, one gets thin and the other drives the other two potty and doesn't eat enough.

They are now stabled individually overnight. The old boy gets an exclusive haynet, which he can eat slowly through the night. The fatty gets him limited haynet, which is treble netted and the young eventer is kept out the way so everybody can have some rest.

They're all good friends - but sometimes need their own space. Sometimes stabling is a necessary evil and an essential part of management.
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completely agree with these two posts.

we have 2 real fatties, both lammi risks that need VERY restricted grazing year round. 1 very fit dressage horse and 1 entire 3yo-completely impractical to keep them together!

as per my earlier post too, yes, i make compromises that make life easier for me because if it wasn't easy for me to keep and compete the beggars, i wouldnt have them, and neither would a lot of competitive riders i know and the breeding industry and general market for horses would be even more up the creek!

and again (repeating myself)-chuck your horse out in your acre of clay sludge, let it stand around and get mud fever, cold and stiff from not being able to move freely through said sludge, and then try and tell me THATS not a welfare issue.............................but many people do it and preach its the best way.BS..............
 
My horses live in all the time, and are ridden for at least an hour each day, and led out for 10 mins morning and evening. Our land isn't great, not even in summer. and most horses I have known in many different yards are keener to come in in the evenings than go out in the mornings. My horses seem content, no stable vices, ride well, and are very mannerly. So I don't consider myself cruel at all.
Also, surely a dog, living in a family home, shut in a house (whether in one room, or the whole house), especially if people are at work all day, and on a lead for walks, also has its freedom curtailed? A hamster or rabbit in a cage, a bird in a cage, isn't it all cruel in the same way as a horse in a stable?
 
ljohnsonsj said:
Because how can it apply to every single horse. Competition horses for example, that are stabled majority of the time and get turned out in their own paddock. Their welfare is still obviously important to owners/grooms and they are kept better than majority of 'everyday' horses although if you just grouped it under this act, it would suggest that they aren't getting what they are supposed to be. (Wording isn't brill, i know what I mean but wasn't sure how to word it!)
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they are not kept better for the horse they are kept to suit owners better if they are kept as you mention.

many 'competition' horses are not kept as you state some of the ones that are less stressed and have less stable vices but go out and compete at a high standard are kept I know of many that live out all year round in herds and the go out and event, dressage, showjumping, pony club and hunting, others that are in herds and out at night in summer and daytime in winter and again others that live out in individual paddocks-I wish people would not think that because a horse competes it cannot be a horse.

what is an 'everyday' horse and how is it different from a horse that competes?
 
Bonkers2 said:
I am totally pro turnout, but there are risks, broken legs among them.
NH racehorses tend to have very busy lives, they also usually sleep rather a lot, so except for very few, they seem to be OK in stabling, they usually get three months off in a field every year.
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Personally I think the risks of not turn out far outweigh the risks of putting them out.

higher risk of colic/ulcers/soft tissue injury due to lack of movement affecting strength and elasticity/stable vices/getting cast to name a few.
a friends horse broke its pelvis overnight in the stable had to be shot they think she got cast,
 
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