Stabled horses and the Animal Welfare Act...your thoughts??

stormox said:
It might, if a horse used to jumping 1.30 fences was put in a field with usual height fencing! A lot of show jumpers wouldn't risk their horse jumping out.
And quite a lot of competition horses are stallions these days.
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This.

My horse is just gelded so jumps out to follow people hacking. Why would I risk him hurting himself or those hacking?!
 
stormox said:
Yes, I only have an acre, including my house, and it is extremely difficult to rent around here. In a perfect world they would be in at night, get fed, mucked out and groomed- then ridden and turned out for a few hours before coming in.
It is much more convenient to ride a horse from a stable than it is from a muddy field too. Also, I wonder how any people whos horses are turned out all the time actually pick feet out (VERY important), and groom properly, checking for injuries etc EVERY DAY?
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Why wouldnt they be checked simply because they live out? Dont really understand this?
 
If I turned out for even an hour over winter regardless of weather, I would have a horse that would be lame in all legs from nasty mud fever and would probably would have lymphangitis a few times over winter.

Just because it's more natural doesn't mean it's the right thing to do for every horse, I can turn my horse out to be more natural, but have other aspects of her welfare suffer. So I choose to stable 24/7 to avoid medical issues that happen every winter regardless of what yard I am on.

It also doesn't help that even if she didn't suffer with nasty mud fever over the winter she refuses to go in muddy paddocks, I end up having a horse rearing at me and pulling free so she doesn't have to go out in it. There is no point me turning her out for her to stand in a muddy gate way cause she wants to come in.
 
Nancykitt said:
Very well said, cobgoblin.
My horses are the same; they certainly let us know when they want to come in and when they want to go out.
They look happy enough to me and seem to enjoy their work (hacking and hunting). I can't say with absolute certainty that they are 'happy', but they definitely didn't appear any happier when they were out 24/7.
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Maybe I've missed something, but I don't see where people are saying that horses HAVE to be out 24/7 to be happy? I think the debate is more about horses being stuck IN 24/7, rather than having a combined system, or being out all the time.

Nightmare before Christmas said:
This.

My horse is just gelded so jumps out to follow people hacking. Why would I risk him hurting himself or those hacking?!
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Neburu said:
If I turned out for even an hour over winter regardless of weather, I would have a horse that would be lame in all legs from nasty mud fever and would probably would have lymphangitis a few times over winter.

Just because it's more natural doesn't mean it's the right thing to do for every horse, I can turn my horse out to be more natural, but have other aspects of her welfare suffer. So I choose to stable 24/7 to avoid medical issues that happen every winter regardless of what yard I am on.

It also doesn't help that even if she didn't suffer with nasty mud fever over the winter she refuses to go in muddy paddocks, I end up having a horse rearing at me and pulling free so she doesn't have to go out in it. There is no point me turning her out for her to stand in a muddy gate way cause she wants to come in.
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I think we've established that most people do not have a problem with horses being stabled 24/7 for veterinary reasons. I think the issue is when horses are stabled for human convenience, or lack of facilities.
 
I have managed horses for 35 years, in competitive yards, large amounts of land, small a mounts of land and they are extremely adaptable creatures to the way we want to manage them, and what ever system you use its never really natural but we have a duty to adapt what ever system we use to cause as little stress as possible to the horse in our care. Some horses are great at appearing coping with stress and others only need a few stress factors to develop 'stable vices' and stress related illness.
Most horses seem to need simple things to cope with stress, large amounts of bulky food, companionship, and a routine and an environment where they can switch off and relax and feel safe from threat. Whether we like it or not a horses best friend is another horse even if the other horse is a bit of a bully.
 
Would it be acceptable for a dog to be kept in a crate 23 hours a day, with one hours walk, simply because it is more convenient for the owner to keep it in a crate to stop it messing the place up or chewing the furniture? Some dogs of course, will cope well from appearance, others won't, but it doesn't make it right.
 
Moomin1 said:
Maybe I've missed something, but I don't see where people are saying that horses HAVE to be out 24/7 to be happy? I think the debate is more about horses being stuck IN 24/7, rather than having a combined system, or being out all the time.
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Th original post refers to 'long periods of being stabled' so I suppose it depends on how you define that.
In the depths of winter, mine spend a bit more time indoors than outdoors. Most of the year it's the other way round.
I think one thing we have to consider is the impact of weather on the land. Our land is clay and waterlogged. The image of the horses galloping around and playing is all very nice but at this time of the year it just isn't happening. They trudge around in the boggy swamp, spending long periods of time standing around. Over in Cheshire where we go hunting, a lot of the land stands up very well to the wet weather and horses turned out there seem to have a better deal. Most of the yards round here severely restrict turnout during the winter because the land just can't take it and needs to be carefully managed to ensure that there's grass in the spring and summer.
If you put a ban on people keeping horses because they haven't got 'the facilities' (ie, lots and lots of free-draining land) then we'd have to wipe out a good proportion of the county.
 
I am lucky as I keep my horses on a farm and grazing is never limited so I can have mine out 24/7 in summer and out everyday in the winter. I agree though - horses should be allowed to be horses whether they are competition horses are companions. It is not good for their mental health to restrict turnout/social interaction. Mine do have days in when I am riding but they can touch each other over the stable doors and walls so can always interact and they get adequate exercise when not turned out, they never spend more than 2 days in a row without turnout though.
 
Eeeekk..I didn't expect quite as many replies!!
In my OP I wasn't trying to get into a in or out 24/7 debate. I simply pondered how people viewed the Act based on long periods of stabling. By this I mean over 14 hours a day.
My own "PERSONAL OPINION" is that it is grossly unfair to keep a horse cooped up for long periods of time and I cannot fathom ever keeping a horse away from other horses. I'm not against stabling overnight etc and I definitely agree that each horse is an individual and it's care needs must be based on that.
I cannot get my head around a large animal being trapped in a box 23 hours a day because he is expensive/competition blah blah.
Mine lives out 24/7 with another horse and a large shelter. I would love to have a stable on occasion for if the weather was truly terrible etc but don't have that option right now. This works for me and my horse and we are both happy with this arrangement :)
 
When I mentioned alternative stable setups on the continent, I was thinking mostly of Germany, Switzerland, Austria. But I think the ideas are also spreading towards the Netherlands and Scandinavia. For examples, do a search for "HIT Aktivstall" on youtube, or google "Laufstall AG". The first is something of a franchise offering building blocks to create a stable system (including automated feeding stations), the second is a control body, checking stables against criteria and awarding stars for horse-friendliness of the setup. Or just a search for "Aktivstall" or "Laufstall" will bring up lots of examples.
 
I think that being stabled 24/7 (apart from ridden work) is horrifically cruel. Not everyone agrees, but after everything I've seen and read I can't really shake that opinion.
 
A owner on my yard keeps her horse in 24 hours a day, she had the horse whisperer out and he said that the horse didn't like going out, so now, he doesn't go out. Ever at all. Myabe on the weekend for an hour or two
 
My Welsh A has lived out all winter with access to a large shelter. She chooses to spend most of the day and all of the night in there when it is wet , cold or windy, she ventures out only on nice days! She is in a nice big sheltered field with company, she just likes her home comforts!
 
Jane_Lou said:
My Welsh A has lived out all winter with access to a large shelter. She chooses to spend most of the day and all of the night in there when it is wet , cold or windy, she ventures out only on nice days! She is in a nice big sheltered field with company, she just likes her home comforts!
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This is exactly the same as my Connie - happy as Larry to come and go as he pleases yet the idiot chooses not to use his shelter in bad weather LOL. I cannot and will not believe that a horse through choice would prefer to be stabled most of the day.
 
baylover said:
I know.... appalling isn't it! how can you leave your horse in all day and all night. Makes me really cross.
He also told her that her horse likes purple and so now everything she owns is purple!!!
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She sounds mentally unstable and a total moron.

I really hope she gives up horses sharpish.
 
Well mine stayed in today - blowing a hoolie, fields are a biggy mess and rain ishorizontal - hey didn't seem all that stressed - the act is there to give the authorities teeth but they're not going to use it cos you put your horse in a stable occasionally!
 
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Part of the degree i'm studying involves studying welfare and I don't personally agree with heavy stabling as I feel it is a welfare problem. Stereotypical behaviours are a symptom of stress and these are NEVER found in the wild and I can't recall any counts of them found in field-kept horses.
Completely not shaming people who stable their horses, but I would never say that because a competition horse has a fancy stable and whatnot, that it's better for it. I would say a horse is probably happier rolling around in mud and playing with other horses. Stabling is sometimes the only practical way to keep a horse and is definitely necessary when a horse is injured or underweight etc and I understand that.
I just don't feel that it a way of keeping a horse that allows them to express natural behaviours. I personally have never stabled my horse and I feel that it is better for her to live the most natural life I can provide as an owner, allowing her to live in a herd and have a nearly 100% grass/hay diet. She is only fed hard feeds as a token after she is ridden as she maintains weight quite well.

In summary, I understand why people stable their horses, but I don't feel it is natural or that it allows them to express their natural behaviour, therefor I personally try to avoid it.

But I would never sham anybody who stabled their horse :)
 
I don't have an issue with part stabled part turned out, I occasionally bring mine in during the heat of the day in summer (still feels a long way away!) or when it's been raining for ages to give them a chance to dry out.

What I can't stand is individual turnout, for me it's completely unnecessary. I think a lot of turnout issues stem from youngsters being isolated so they never learn correct interaction leading to issues in later life.

My stallions, colt and geldings all go out together. Yes there's rough and tumble but they love each other's company and even in 30 acres the herd is always together.

I've previously had to retire my horse of a lifetime due to a field accident when he was in his prime, eight years of hard work down the drain, but I don't regret it and it hasn't changed my view
 
I think there's a difference between individual turn out and being in 24/7. My boy is on individual turn out because another gelding beat the crap out of him. He's next to 4 geldings on one side a mare on the other and has another gelding Infront of him. He has plenty of socialisation without getting attacked, I have none of the worry! I often watch them and him the mare and other gelding meet in the corner for a chat and a groom!

I had an obscene amount if vet bills and rug repair bills that I just couldn't afford to keep paying. He spends his time eating, at no point have I seen him pine for other horses because he has friends around him. The only time the stress comes is if he's left out all alone
 
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catroo said:
I don't have an issue with part stabled part turned out, I occasionally bring mine in during the heat of the day in summer (still feels a long way away!) or when it's been raining for ages to give them a chance to dry out.

What I can't stand is individual turnout, for me it's completely unnecessary. I think a lot of turnout issues stem from youngsters being isolated so they never learn correct interaction leading to issues in later life.

My stallions, colt and geldings all go out together. Yes there's rough and tumble but they love each other's company and even in 30 acres the herd is always together.

I've previously had to retire my horse of a lifetime due to a field accident when he was in his prime, eight years of hard work down the drain, but I don't regret it and it hasn't changed my view
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I really don't see any problem with individual turnout, adjacent or within sight even of other horses.
 
Queenbee said:
But they are not getting what they are supposed to be getting.

Just because they have their own personal stable and their own personal field and are wrapped up in cotton woll, does NOT mean they are getting what they need. They don't get the opportunity for social interaction. I'm sorry but a competition horse is still just a horse and as such should have those basic needs met, just as any other horse should.

I'm not quite sure if people with competition horses believe their horse will melt if it lives in any way like a horse should, but if turnout and socialisation with other horses is good enough for carl jesters competition horses then I'm pretty sure it won't harm other competition horses either.
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Have to agree..
 
Having carefully consider all of these arguments and read every post I am still really happy that my 2 are out 24/7 1st May to end of September and in 24/7 the rest of the year. They have genuinely ad lib forage when in and fully clipped hunt hard all winter. I have kept 9 horses over the years on this system and all have shown much less stress than the horses who only hack out lightly all year round.
 
JDH01 said:
Having carefully consider all of these arguments and read every post I am still really happy that my 2 are out 24/7 1st May to end of September and in 24/7 the rest of the year. They have genuinely ad lib forage when in and fully clipped hunt hard all winter. I have kept 9 horses over the years on this system and all have shown much less stress than the horses who only hack out lightly all year round.
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I am not sure what the hacking out lightly and hunting hard all winter part has to do with it? Are you suggesting that horses kept out 24/7 and only hack out lightly are a lot more stressed than horses kept in 24/7 who go hunting hard all winter?
 
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