Stag Hunting

[Godknows]

I believe the law is that only two hounds may chase an animal at any one time and then it must be shot. Really stupid IMO. I don't see why that is any less cruel than a whole pack chasing the animal. I think that in practice, many hunts completely ignore the law. Not that it really makes any difference to the anial being hunted. I expect it is just as terrified whether it is being chased by two hounds as by the whole pack.

How would they stop the other hounds anyway? This hunt had two large horse boxes full of hounds that all went out. They wouldn't stand a chance of stopping the pack

 

[Wagtail]

How would they stop the other hounds anyway? This hunt had two large horse boxes full of hounds that all went out. They wouldn't stand a chance of stopping the pack

They don't intend to...

 

[Godknows]

They don't intend to...

Exactly!! So the thing about 2 dogs is ridiculous.

 

[Crosshill Pacers]

I'm pro-foxhunting, have grown up on a farm and have hunted myself. Completely understand the necessity (not the tradition) of foxhunting. I will defend it to the hilt time and time again and proudly say I'm a member of my local hunt.

However, at a neighbouring hunt's ball a couple of years ago I had the displeasure of meeting a young man who hunted down the south of England, who felt the need to brag to me about the time he chased a stag into a river and was so close to it he was hitting it around the head with his crop, all the while calling the hounds to him. I found him completely repulsive, and the acts that he described repulsive too.

For me hunting is about vermin control and necessity. My family are sheep farmers and we cannot afford to lose our stock. I fail to see how beating a wild animal in distress is necessary.

(That's my two pence worth anyway!)

 

[Clodagh]

I've hunted all my life, but not for the last couple of seasons as I haven't had a horse. That is fox hunting.
I have been stag hunting and had an excellent view as I was with the huntsmans wife and we went off on our own and saw it. It is incredible to watch and the hound work was superb (it was about 20 years ago, pre ban). It was a hot day and when the stag lay down in some gorse the huntsman got off his horse and kicked it until it got up and ran again as the paying public hadn't had their moneys worth. At the end when he (stag) staggered to a river and stood at bay to be shot it was hideous. Never again. Just like bull fighting and completely indefensible.
Also as the NT had just implemented a ban on hunting on their land, earlier in the day the stag tried to go onto Dunkery Beacon and had to be repeatedly ridden off, like in polo, until he went the way the hunt wanted him to go, so he didn't know his country and was running blind. Just like a bagged fox IMO.
Of course they can just shoot them in the early morning, the harbourers get close enough prior to the meet to see which one to cull, just shoot it then.
JG, you may well have been with the BFSS when they (or the CA, not sure) did a survey and found that lots of their members were pro fox hunting and anti stag and they (BFSS) got very cross and said they were just the same - I don't think so!

 

[Tizzy]

I just think its all disgusting - stag hunting in particular. To run the thing into the ground, terrify it beyond belief then shoot and to take pleasure in doing so. Not to mention those paying to watch 'the show'. Youv got to be sick in the head.

 

[padderpaws]

for the record I agree with you GodKnows.

 

[Quantock-cob]

I also agree with Godknows and the other poster who had an unfortunate encounter with rude Staghunters. I live near the Quantock hills and the staghounds hunt up there on Mondays and Thursdays. I have now learned not to walk my dogs up on the hills on those days. The riders and followers of the hunt are rude and inconsiderate for other users of the hills and the hills themselves. The followers drive their 4x4's at speed along the tracks and across the gorse and brush land. No one else is allowed to do this - we have many ground nesting birds on the hills, so goodness knows what happens to them. The riders are not much better and will ride at you at speed until you move off the track. I have had several near misses where I suddenly noticed horses coming behind me and had to call my dogs quickly to my side.

I also had the misfortune to see a stag being chased along the top of a hill and down into the valley. There was then a "bay" and then a shot. I'm not some fluffy townie (I've lived in the country all my life and grew up on a farm) but I found this very upsetting and disgusting. As I returned to my car I met some American tourists, who asked what was going on. I explained about the hunt and they were shocked as they had heard that hunting was banned in England. They thought it was disgusting - and said it had ruined their view of England.

I sometimes think I want to move away from this area because of the obsession with hunting. People assume because I have a horse then I should hunt. I have had people telling me that they will take my horse hunting - if I'm not brave enough. I tell them that that will never happen - I value his legs and safety too much. I've told people on my yard that I don't agree with hunting but they think I will come round once I've been out for a day with them.

My OH said one day that he thought it might be fun - I told him if I ever found out that he had taken my horse hunting I would cut off his balls and feed them to the hounds!! Haha.

 

[Maesfen]

FTR, I agree totally with Janet.

 

[JanetGeorge]

So who owns the deer? I'm sure a nice ride could be organized without the dogs and hunt?

I don't think you unjderstand the local culture and how staghunting fits into it. The farmers who support staghunting - or who want the deer moved on - TOLERATE the followers because they are part of the package. They wouldn't allow groups of riders to run across their land otherwise. And the support for staghunting also means that farmers TOLERATE the deer and are MUCH less likely to let their mates run loose with rifles or shotguns on their land!

 

[Wagtail]

I'm afraid I don't swallow the 'can't use rifles to cull the deer argument'. We don't have red deer around here but we do have fallow deer. Much smaller targets, and the wildlife warden regularly culls them with a rifle (not shotgun). Notices are put up to warn the public and shooting is only carried out before 10 am and not at weekends.

 

[JanetGeorge]

How would they stop the other hounds anyway? This hunt had two large horse boxes full of hounds that all went out. They wouldn't stand a chance of stopping the pack

NO hunt has ONE large horse box full of hounds, let alone 2! Hound 'accommodation' is built into the front of a horse-box - with the rest of the space being used for 2-3 hunters. The entire D&SS pack would fit into the space occupied by one horse (and they are the biggest pack!)

 

[JanetGeorge]

However, at a neighbouring hunt's ball a couple of years ago I had the displeasure of meeting a young man who hunted down the south of England, who felt the need to brag to me about the time he chased a stag into a river and was so close to it he was hitting it around the head with his crop, all the while calling the hounds to him. I found him completely repulsive, and the acts that he described repulsive too.

ANY staghound follower who behaved in that manner would be sent home and banned from coming again! Young men under the influence of alcohol trying to impress females DO spout the biggest load of rubbish - it's rarely factual!

 

[Wagtail]

NO hunt has ONE large horse box full of hounds, let alone 2! Hound 'accommodation' is built into the front of a horse-box - with the rest of the space being used for 2-3 hunters. The entire D&SS pack would fit into the space occupied by one horse (and they are the biggest pack!)

Space occupied by one horse in most trailers and horse boxes is 8.5 x 3 feet max. So that's around 8 hounds?

 

[JanetGeorge]

I'm afraid I don't swallow the 'can't use rifles to cull the deer argument'. We don't have red deer around here but we do have fallow deer. Much smaller targets, and the wildlife warden regularly culls them with a rifle (not shotgun). Notices are put up to warn the public and shooting is only carried out before 10 am and not at weekends.

Of course you CAN use rifles to cull deer - if numbers are all that matters! Exmoor has the finest herds of wild red deer in the corld and they are not culled by numbers - they are culled for health and quality reasons and selecting and finding the 'right' deer to cull is the responsibility of the staghounds and the expert deer managers connected to the packs. If you just want to shoot any old deer - that's fine. (Although putting up notices around Exmoor would need an ENORMOUS number of notices - and half the tourists would ignore them anyway!)

A rifle bullet suitable for deer will travel two miles and still have enough velocity left to kill a walker!

 

[Clodagh]

But we have a man who stalks fallow here, using the type of rifle you describe, and he does it safely and he gets close enough to tell which to cull. He would NEVER pull the trigger if he couldn't see where his shot would go if he missed.

And thoughts on the stag being kicked to make him get up and run further?

 

[JanetGeorge]

But we have a man who stalks fallow here, using the type of rifle you describe, and he does it safely and he gets close enough to tell which to cull. He would NEVER pull the trigger if he couldn't see where his shot would go if he missed.

And thoughts on the stag being kicked to make him get up and run further?

He's a ruddy good stalker then - or a man with a LOT of time on his hands. Fallow are notoriously difficult to stalk - most culling is done from a tree hide around here (which of course is safer as you're shooting downwards.) But there are still a lot get wounded- a friend of mine has a dog trained to find injured deer and he is 'on call' for both RTA victims and shooting injuries.

IF a stag was kicked to his feet to make him run further I would be appalled - I don't believe the registered packs' huntsmen would do this!

 

[Hollyberry]

I am going to stick my head above the parapit here because I am so shocked at what I have found out today. We nearly bought a farm in Tiverton, found out just before exchange that the people who lived there were terrorised out from the farm by TivertonStaghounds. I don't want to hear any excuses from the hunting fraternity, these people were quite literally forced out and their business ruined by the staghounds repeatedly crossing their land, scaring their goats into aborting and scaring the ::::t out of the owner and her aged parents. This local pack are known for being absolute bastards and evil to the farm owners locally. No one will take them to task because they are scared. Don't even try to justify this (usual suspects) as I know for a fact this is true, I have seen the searches. This country is overun with the scum that hide behind such nasty sports. This is the pack that has had a lot of publicity with the scum that raped a woman at the hunt ball! I usually sit on the fence about this but I am so shocked and appalled that in the 21st century this goes on, it sickens me when people who justify their vile sport come on here and ponificate and take the moral highground.

 

[Pale Rider]

All these so called sports are really exactly that. Entertainment for those that wish to participate.
Fox or stag hunting is just the same as badger baiting, cock fighting, dog fighting and the rest of these perverse activities.
I cannot think of a more ineffective way of 'culling' anything, than chasing it to exhaustion with dogs, horses and a bunch of voyeurs hoping to see some pain and blood.
People will come up with all sorts of justification for this sort of stuff, but you cannot justify the unjustifiable.

 

[RuthM]

I was still in a yard that hunted through it's end days. I could argue both for and against it and as such saw it as a lesser ethical issue than breeding freak dogs that can't breathe!

But Janet, you miss out the in fighting that existed at the time and by god surely you were aware? Bagiing, kettling, the extent to which holes were blocked, digging out and special favours for special guests, a guaranteed kill.

I remeber the talk in kitchen with a master's horse in the yard, I remember many who withdrew membership, stood their ground as 'awkward' people were replaced, right to the top. My current patterdale was through the terrier man.

All those I remember getting their faces on the telly as pro never addressed the reality of stuff that was wrong, their was a 'united we stand' frame of mind with bitter in fighting.

Fox hunting killed itself by failing to discipline itself despite pleas from many who had supported most their lives - so united it fell.

And now? Nudge, wink, there's ways round, confounded democracy of fools won't stop it hahaha. It stinks, it does nothing for the image of the horse world, calling townies ignorant doesn't help, it never did.

It'd be grand if country folk, hunting folk abided the law and spirit of the law and simply learned from was past mistakes.

 

[Clodagh]

He's a ruddy good stalker then - or a man with a LOT of time on his hands. Fallow are notoriously difficult to stalk - most culling is done from a tree hide around here (which of course is safer as you're shooting downwards.) But there are still a lot get wounded- a friend of mine has a dog trained to find injured deer and he is 'on call' for both RTA victims and shooting injuries.

IF a stag was kicked to his feet to make him run further I would be appalled - I don't believe the registered packs' huntsmen would do this!

It was a registered pack.
The stalker both stalks and uses a tree hide. He has a dog he takes with him in case there is an injury or he cannot find the deer, as even when dead they can run for a bit.
Stags are injured by shooting as well when at bay, there was much merriment the time one came back to life in the back of the landrover they were using to get the carcass away from the antis.

 

[RuthM]

'scuse terrible grammar and spelling! On phone with tidgy screen...

 

[JanetGeorge]

But Janet, you miss out the in fighting that existed at the time and by god surely you were aware? Bagiing, kettling, the extent to which holes were blocked, digging out and special favours for special guests, a guaranteed kill.

Of COURSE there is in-fighting. Any club or organisation has it - we had it in RDA in Victoria, and don't MENTION RDAA which involved the Queenslanders! It was rife in the BHS in my day - and no doubt still is; BE, BS, and the Pony Club have all suffered it by the shovel-full and we have it in the IDHS(GB) - and there are TWO Irish Draught Breeders' organisations in Ireland (neither of them holding the stud book.) I could go on, but ...

What the HELL are "Bagiing, kettling" (other than 'kettling' crowds by the police to control public order.) Earths were blocked for a reason, and terrier work was an essential part of fox control (and is still perfectly legal when carried out to protect game birds!) "Guaranteed kill" - no such thing!

All those I remember getting their faces on the telly as pro never addressed the reality of stuff that was wrong, their was a 'united we stand' frame of mind with bitter in fighting.

Fox hunting killed itself by failing to discipline itself despite pleas from many who had supported most their lives - so united it fell.

Well, as one who got her face on telly as pro rather more than anyone else from 1995 to 1998, I DID address the reality when things went wrong - on more than one occasion! But I would agree there was not enough discipline - in particular by the MFHA - when things WERE wrong. I recall one particular ex-Master (who was allowed to 'resign') - I told the then Chairman of the MFHA what if that b****** ever got another pack of hounds then I'd give the story to the tabloids! (Oh dear, he wasn't impressed with being 'threatened'! )

 

[RuthM]

You threatened - you did not speak out and if you really believe there were no days with bagged foxes then, nah, you don't believe that. Kettling was old, bagging less so and I flat don't believe you know nothing of either. Of course some blocking of earths can be reasonable, but the line as to how much is another thing altogether.

Right now I have no idea whether your responses are remotely genuine or just the continuation of no-one speaking out.

Bagging is keeping a fox in a hesian bag the night before, comes out tired and stinking, kettling is to use a milk kettle for same.

 

[JanetGeorge]

Ah - bagging! Yes, a bit of that went on in my time (one professional Master was turfed for it), never heard of using a milk kettle (I've never SEEN a milk kettle!) Very few hunts did it - even if there was a shortage of foxes - because it was against the rules - and too easy to spot! Most followers would have been totally against it and if they saw evidence of it, that MFH/huntsman's tenure would be short - and farmers have banned hunts from their land for less!

I didn't speak out on the incident I mentioned because I got the result I wanted - which was him OUT - and what he did was stupid and crass and cruel to a hound. There are bad eggs in every walk of life - but their behaviour is not the norm. And hunting should not be condemned for the bad eggs.

Earth stopping and terrier work were the two things constantly moaned about - but lack of one meant more of the other. MANY farmers insisted that if a fox went to ground it was dug - they wanted foxes killed (their 'price' for having the hunt on their land.) The only way to minimise digging was earth stopping!

ETA - I should add that I no longer hunt - lack of time and a bad back (plus boredom!) stops me. My husband IS an MFH - and the rules are strictly adhered to in his hunt!

 

[RuthM]

Janet, read your last post back to yourself and look at what I see, if you can, all that stuff not talked about, all of it part and parcel of hunting, especially where I was, at it's heartland. I didn't like every farmer, (their demands vary , some I liked, some were despotic) some London owners I hated with a passion, some leant their beautiful horses for favours or sex to Muppets who couldn't ride, some couldn't ride sober. I loved the horses, and after holding far too many to be stitched as a teen and after being so glad my gaffa got at least 90% out of it I had little love loss. Nothing of the world I knew got on the telly, the debate there was never about what was right or wrong with hunting. It was alien. Maybe if you had spoke out, just to say it was real, despite having had the guy allowed to resign, maybe i'd have been all ears instead of changing channel.

Dogs should be allowed to hunt, because they are dogs and we should love them as is, not bred into bastardised shadows of human lunacy. That's the part I liked, to see dogs be dogs, same as I admired my own dog ratting, becuase she was so damn fast and clever. Some people rode to and followed hounds for the same reason, some for the kill, some to network and show off new equine purchases, some to get laid, and a few to demonstrate that they could have their demands met - a kill.

 

[Pale Rider]

My word, these hunts sound absolutely awful, the people involved sound like they should be on some register, so we know where they are.

 

[RuthM]

PR, IMO there were good people too. One of my dearest friends still works with horses aged 81! He loved to follow on foot and you'd never meet a kinder man, but for him it was about seeing dogs (no, I know they're called hounds ).Like I said, I loved watching my dog rat and always felt hunting had the potential to be positive, but it always had too many pipers to pay.

I guess what I'm saying is it met out it's own doom by trying way too hard to avoid it.

 

[Pale Rider]

I know animals have to be killed, part of life isn't it. What I don't like is the ritualistic rubbish around hunting. If you need to kill something, it should be done as quickly and humainly as is possible. Dressing up and poncing about all day is perverse, and cruel. If 10 chaves chased a cat all round the estate and let the bull terriers kill it, no one would support that.

 

[RuthM]

You're right, especially about if the working classes did it. But the ban isn't against killing a fox, it's againstusing hounds to do it and of the ********"s, well the alternative means aren't exactly savoury!

PR - do you think I was wrong to love to see my magnificent bitch rat? It was exquisite, her skill and speed, not to mention humane in comparison to the poisoned rats that drown themsleves in water butts!

But, just to clarify, the above had little to do with the hunting world I saw as a 16yr old groom. By the time it's death knell was ringing I was all but out of it. Land owners, members, young huntsmen, and those members hunts just die for, like I said, too many pipers and ethics came second to 'it' the glorious hunting surviving. 'it' was one Hell of a sacred cow.