charlie76
Well-Known Member
Are you sure it closing down and not just stopping doing exams ?
Stage 3 - horse wouldn't move
- Thread starter ReggieP
- Start date
Are you sure it closing down and not just stopping doing exams ?
Kokopelli
Well-Known Member
Nope as the first of November its shutting down, all the horses are being rehomed. It is a real shame, I was meant to start as a working pupil there this year. Have watched loads of exams there and ridden in the teaching exams and can honestly say its the best place around here. Horses are happy and normal, not stale like the ones from a very well known local centre and needless to say instructors are amazing. It is a real shame for the horsing world imo. 
Tnavas
Well-Known Member
It's they way of all the old big schools! We've lost Radnage House, Patchetts Green, Fulmer Equitation and now Huntley. Really sad.
Patterdale
Well-Known Member
If the candidates really were of a high standard of riding, they'd be able to get any horse to perform, especially at stage 2 level! All you have to do is show a forward, balanced and rhythmical walk trot and canter, and jump a very small course. If you can't get your average riding school horse (or ANY horse I work that's been broken longer than 6 months) to do that, then you deserve to fail IMO.
What a strange statement!
ReggieP
Well-Known Member
Hi all, it looks as if I triggered an interesting debate. Thanks for all your comments. To be clear my daughter did get to ride a 2nd horse on the flat. The 2nd horse was clearly unsuitable for the types test required (see previous comments on what is expected from the horse). In normal circumstances this could have been rectified by looking at the performance over the 2 tests. However the first was unsound (i.e lame). She told the assessor this, and her concern was ignored). We have an email back from BHS where the assessor has admitted that the horse was changed ( when the 2nd candiate complained ) "as a precaution", as it was deemed to be "unlevel" . I'm not sure of the semantic differences between "unlevel" , "unsound" or simply having 3 working legs, but we clearly feel that there is an issue of my daughter not having the same opportunity as the other candidates and hence we will be making a formal complaint. We are not seeking a "pass", but rather some form of offer in terms of a free or reduced fee re-examination. Afterall to shell out more than £300 and miss a day of school just to be handed a dodgy horse is in my view, and quite mildly, taking the mick.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
I wonder who assesses centres for their suitability for exams, particularly the higher ones (ie stage 3) and how many candidates they can therefore accommodate. Perhaps there would be something to be said for fewer centres with a good stock of horses.
Honey08
Waffled a lot!
I wonder re the level of horses, that its because students at centres nowadays seem to be really pretty novice and go down the NVQ then degree route, so the horses are of a lower standard?
When I did my AI, Brackenhurst was opening, and I wanted to take my 15.3 horse that had showjumped and hunted with me, they wouldn't take her as she had no official dressage experience. Nowadays they would snap my hand off, in fact there are always adverts for horses needed for colleges. I know a few people that have sent horses and they are not very high calibre horses.
OP did they say they would look into the matter if they have admitted that the horse was unlevel? And had she already not passed on the first horse?
When I did my AI, Brackenhurst was opening, and I wanted to take my 15.3 horse that had showjumped and hunted with me, they wouldn't take her as she had no official dressage experience. Nowadays they would snap my hand off, in fact there are always adverts for horses needed for colleges. I know a few people that have sent horses and they are not very high calibre horses.
OP did they say they would look into the matter if they have admitted that the horse was unlevel? And had she already not passed on the first horse?
ReggieP
Well-Known Member
to be clear we have had email from EQ ltd admitting the horse had a problem and that it was later withdrawn, but in the same mail refusing to acknowledge that anything was amiss in the examination procedure. This is their initial response. We now have to pay a whopping £75 to raise an "official complaint" , after which, if unsuccessful, we can raise the matter to OFQUAL.
AshTay
Well-Known Member
Confused. So she did ride 2 horses - the first was "unsuitable" on the flat - how? Assuming that one was sound then there's no such thing as an unsuitable horse, just an unsuitable rider and a good rider will get a tune of some sort out of any horse they ride and good/bad riding can be judged from the moment a rider gets on board and asks for walk.
Then the second wouldn't move and was ultimately found to be lame? If she fell well below expected standards on the first "unsuitable" horse then she would not have passed anyway so it's a pointless argument.
charlie76
Well-Known Member
Nope as the first of November its shutting down, all the horses are being rehomed. It is a real shame, I was meant to start as a working pupil there this year. Have watched loads of exams there and ridden in the teaching exams and can honestly say its the best place around here. Horses are happy and normal, not stale like the ones from a very well known local centre and needless to say instructors are amazing. It is a real shame for the horsing world imo.
that is sad . I did my four there. horses were fab and carol is lovely
ReggieP
Well-Known Member
On this I am afraid I have to disagree. As previously noted by other posters there are a number of things expected on the flat that you would not be able to do unless the horse has some basic level of training. E.g As devils advocate should a stage 3 candidate be expected to ride a just-backed youngster ? At what point is the horse suitable or not suitable ?
In any case this does not alter our argument, in that the candidate is supposed to be provided and assessed with 2 sound horses. This did not happen and so there was a clear unfair disadvantage vis a vis the other candidates. This is not even a question on ability. It is a simple matter of following proper examination protocol to ensure equality amongst all candidates.
BTW, EQ Ltd do not appear to have any process in place by which to assess the ability of the horses provided prior to examination, so it is simply the luck of the draw. Unfortunately I'm not prepared to play a £300 lottery for a qualification in which BHS have a monopoly ( we cant go elsewhere to get the qualification), and so they need to have system to ensure that the facilities and horses provided on the day are to a certain level of quality/ability thus providing the same conditions for all candidates.
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Patterdale
Well-Known Member
Look, I realise that when your own child is concerned, you will obviously be biased.
But (as I have already stated in this thread) ANY horse who has been broken longer than 6 months is suitable, and a decent rider should be able to get a tune out of it.
In my 3 one of my flat horses was a huge stiff cob who gets used for RDA lessons (I did my PTT at the same centre and did a lead rein RDA lesson with it). The rider before me tried riving it's head in and basically couldn't get it to move. I got on, and although it wasn't ready to work on the bit I got it going forward, stretching into a long contact and doing flexions and the beginnings of leg yielding each rein. I passed.
I'm a bit confused though about what's happened.
So, your daughter rode one horse on the flat, then rode this other horse? Who was lame but they refused to swap it for her?
Someone else then got on the horse, and they did swap it for them? HOW could someone else have got on it afterwards, as each person rides 2 horses only, and they would have all been on their second horses by then?
This just doesn't ring true to me at all I'm afraid. I think your daughter should just suck it up, be philosophical, ask for feedback, go away and work at it then put in for the exam again.
If you really think about it, can't you see that if she couldn't get the first horse going well, she just needs to improve? No one should ever be ashamed of not making the grade, but surely she needs to admit to herself that she just needs to improve? It happens to us all now and then!
AshTay
Well-Known Member
I see your point and agree that it was unfair to be given a second horse that was lame but I was confused that initially you stated she was only allowed to ride one and then later on that she had already ridden one "unsuitable" horse. If EQ Ltd are looking into the issue of the second horse then that's a good outcome.
Why should a stage 3 rider not be capable of riding a just-backed youngster??? I just looked at the Stage 3 syllabus and what they're looking for is an "effective" and "sympathetic" rider who can ride "independently" in a group and can demonstrates understanding and knowledge about how to train horses to novice dressage level - what sorts of horse should individuals of that level NOT be riding. Even if the horse was not fully proficient at, for example, leg yield, I would expect a stage 3 rider to know how to ask for it, how to correct it and exercises to help improve it (hell, I do and I have no stages and am pretty numpty but I have regular lessons with someone who knows so I've picked that up). My only exception would be a known nutcase who was a danger to himself and others and those horses shouldn't be ridden by anybody. How was the first horse unsuitable?
ReggieP
Well-Known Member
Clearly I have not expressed myself very well. The issue for me is not how good or how bad the riding ability. It is about being provided with the same examination conditions. Moreover, and irrespective of what happened in this case, if BHS have no mechanism to assess the quality of the horses being used how can there be a level playing for all candidates. The result (as per comments of experiences from previous posters) is that you can have very good riders fail because they have "mad" or "bad" horses and you can have lesser able riders pass because they happen to be given a school master. I agree that this is not easy to solve, and it can probably never be perfect but my view is that considering the substantial cost of these exams EQ LTD need to do a lot more to remove some of the inconsistencies.
Patterdale
Well-Known Member
Sorry but this just isn't true. Unless the horse goes nuts and bucks you off for no reason (which I've never heard of happening!) it's NOT a mad or bad horse. However I think we've established now that most broken in horses are in fact suitable.
You also ride 2 horses for a reason. You will be given contrasting horses, ie if you have a slow, stiff horse first you'll be given a more forward one next.
And you haven't addressed my point asking how the lame horse could possibly have been given to another candidate, who was allowed to swap it, if everyone was already on second horses?
As you're trying to publicly discredit the BHS I really think you should answer this.
galaxy
Well-Known Member
Op. Horse are living animals. It would be impossible for them to all be absolutely identical to provide a 'level playing field'. What you seem to be discounting are that the examiners are very experienced horse men/women and instructors. They will be able to see and assess what the horse is capable of and whether the rider is getting the most that the horse is able to give. There is no requirement that the candidate has to be able to perform a perfect x y or z out of the horse.
In my stage 3 I had a very green cob that struggled to relax. I only cantered it once on each rein then spent the rest of the time in walk and trot getting it to stretch and relax. I explained what I was doing to the examiner. They saw that I had assessed it correctly and agreed with what I did. The second horse was a huge stiff board. Was very hard work to get to flex but eventually I got there. Again I discussed with the examiner what I felt and what I was doing. They could SEE what the horse was like and agreed with my analysis.
The fact that your daughter did ride 2 horses unlike what you says earlier, makes me conclude she was likely not up to standard. Have you considered going elsewhere for a second opinion. I failed my stage 3 jumping first time. I had taken it at the centre I had trained who were shocked and told me to appeal etc etc the examiners were wrong. I decided to get a 2nd opinion.... Had my position pulled apart and passed a few months later.
In my stage 3 I had a very green cob that struggled to relax. I only cantered it once on each rein then spent the rest of the time in walk and trot getting it to stretch and relax. I explained what I was doing to the examiner. They saw that I had assessed it correctly and agreed with what I did. The second horse was a huge stiff board. Was very hard work to get to flex but eventually I got there. Again I discussed with the examiner what I felt and what I was doing. They could SEE what the horse was like and agreed with my analysis.
The fact that your daughter did ride 2 horses unlike what you says earlier, makes me conclude she was likely not up to standard. Have you considered going elsewhere for a second opinion. I failed my stage 3 jumping first time. I had taken it at the centre I had trained who were shocked and told me to appeal etc etc the examiners were wrong. I decided to get a 2nd opinion.... Had my position pulled apart and passed a few months later.
ReggieP
Well-Known Member
This is exactly what we are trying to understand also. Candidate 1 complained the horse was unsound but was ignored. Candidate 2 took the same horse, complained it was unsound and it was changed for her. Clearly they were not all doing the flat tests at the same time!
I'm absolutely in no way trying to discredit BHS. I do not have an issue with BHS. This is an EQ Ltd examination procedural issue concerning equal treatment of candidates, as they are required to do under the OFQUAL regulatory framework in which they operate. If it is deemed that, whether in this particular case, or in future exams that there is a possibility of unequal treatment then EQ Ltd will need to address the issue and make improvements. My understanding is that EQ Ltd are relatively new to the area of exam (any exam) regulation where there is now much more emphasis on ensuring that procedures are very clearly described and followed so that the exam result becomes much more objective and rigorous with less left to chance and subjective assessment. It is hence perhaps not so surprising that there will need to be some tweaking of their system.
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Patterdale
Well-Known Member
That makes no sense.
They rode first horses. Someone else obviously ride the 'lame' one and your daughter rode a different (and you say 'unsuitable') one. I can safely assume this, as they don't suddenly bring different horses in halfway through.
They swap.
Your daughter can't make her horse move and it later turns out to be unlevel. Your daughter is not given another horse, presumably as she is not deemed fit to continue to the jumping.
2 horses ridden by each candidate, flatwork section over.
So HOW can you claim that the horse was then given straight to another rider who was allowed a swap?
Disappointment, fine. But bending the truth the meet your own ends gets my back up I'm afraid.
galaxy
Well-Known Member
I THINK the ops daughter rode the 'lame' horse first. Didn't go well... Then was moved onto her 2nd horse and someone else got the 'lame' one which was then taken out the exam.
I would conclude that the ride on the 2nd horse was not up to standard. If the other horse had since been pronounced lame the examiners would have allowed for that.
ReggieP
Well-Known Member
Firstly I am not bending any truth and secondly I'm finding it a bit difficult to understand where I am unclear. My daughter rode 2 horses in the flatwork. One was lame. She raised her concerns to the examiner but was ignored and had to continue on it. when she had finished the same horse was subsequently given to another candidate (also for the flat work) who also complained but this the time horse was changed ; consequently the other candidate did her test on a different horse.
Kokopelli
Well-Known Member
But your daughter still rode another horse who wasn't lame and suitable for being assessed on before the lame one? If so then they would have assessed her riding on this horse which was from what you're saying not up to standard.
ReggieP
Well-Known Member
Yes correct, but the effect of having an unsound horse in the first test and the refusal of the examiners to listen to her concerns had quite a detrimental impact on the 2nd ride. She is a teenager, a little shy and not a hardened person of the world like me and many on this thread who would perhaps put the first ride behind them, take up the issue with the assessor and focus on the next part. It is precisely for these types of reason that OFQUAL requires that candidates must be given a level playing field and equal opportunity. In terms of her ability all I can say is that she has ridden every day since the age of 5, competes regularly in BE and BS and her trainers have included and do include a number of BHS Fellows, and riding "superstars" all of whom would attest to her ability. Clearly she was not able to demonstrate her ability on the day, but we believe that a great part of this was as a result of being given an unsound horse and treated unequally vis a vis other candidates.
siennamum
Well-Known Member
I know I am just a compulsive liar, as presumably is the OP and anyone who doesn't adhere to your world view.
Patterdale
Well-Known Member
But if she couldn't do this on the day, then she clearly didnt have the skill or maturity to pass.
I feel like we're going round in circles. I do not believe that this is the centres fault, but I think that you refuse to see this as you are very biased.
If she were my child, I'd like to think I'd get her some feedback, talk about where she'd gone wrong and get her some lessons so that she can go for the exam again with more confidence and an increased skill set. Not just blame everyone and anyone but her.
But hey ho.
Patterdale
Well-Known Member
Could you please quote where I've called you a 'compulsive liar'? Or indeed, accused you of lying at all?
Thought not - as I haven't.
All I said is that at stage 2 you should be able to get a horse going forward in walk trot and canter, in balance, and that if you can't then you don't deserve to pass??? V confused.
Did you quote the wrong person?
siennamum
Well-Known Member
I and others of the 8 other failed candidates were all able to get a horse going forward in walk trot and canter, in balance. We were all able to have the horses jump sweetly round the small course of jumps. If we couldn't do that we should definitely have failed but that wasn't the case on the day I took my exam.
I think you may have taken your exam a long time ago & lost track of what is expected now.....
I think you may have taken your exam a long time ago & lost track of what is expected now.....
Patterdale
Well-Known Member
Your examiners must have all been drunk and/or blind then. If ever i fail something I can accept that I just wasnt up to scratch. Whatever.
And FYI I took my exams 7 years ago, but to this day coach people (successfully) through stages 1,2,3 and PTT. So I don't think I'm tooooo out of touch
siennamum
Well-Known Member
No, as I explained earlier, the horses weren't up to scratch. Riding a horse assertively when it is stale, sore, poor and tired isn't my thing. I rode my horse a bit too sympathetically, allowed it to lob along rather than dumbing down my riding and chasing it along. I also had a light contact rather than a stranglehold. These things were mistakes. I was riding sympathetically, rather than riding it in the style expected by the examiners. At stage 3 I could have explained at stage 2, you really need to not over think stuff.
Patterdale
Well-Known Member
So the horses were welfare cases and the examiners wanted to see you riding the horses in a 'stranglehold' and not sympathetically?!
Whatever.
Have it your way then - but if the horses were so poor you felt bad even riding them I hope you reported it to the authorities.
None so blind as those that will not see.......
siennamum
Well-Known Member
quite