Stallion choices

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Anna123

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ok so I'm brand new to breeding and have never handled a foal before, never mind bred one and all this is likely to change when (hopefully) I breed from my mare next year.
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I love Grafenstolz but I think he'd produce something too much for me so I've been putting together a shortlist of stallions and apart from one have now pretty much been to see the ones I like best BUT I just don't like them as much. Does anyone else find this?! I guess it's a first time breeder thing?
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Firstly, think about the mare....you need to like the stallion but he must suit your mare! Why don't you post a pic of her and tell us a bit about her, we may be able to give some constructive advice about your stallion choice?

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Agree. Just because a mare can be bred dosen't mean she should be.
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Did you not like PP/FI Anna123? I think either would go really nicely with your mare as you've said before you'd like to refine her and both have by all accounts lovely temperaments.

Don't get too hung up on Grafenstolz. There are so many lovely stallions out there. I only used G as Heraldic XX who I was planning to use (also at Birkhof) croaked at the last minute. (Not sure what it is about me and stallions - I was hoping to use McGuigan next year
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PS re G and sharpness, ok our two haven't been the most chilled babies but my 2yr old has really grown up this year and provided I handle her (this I think was a little the trouble with G - it took several riders including Ingrid before he took to Michael) she's a good girl, v mature in her backing and extremely forward going and bold (albeit a tiny bit opinionated
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Sorry - she is my husband's hunter and stands at 17hh. I'd like to produce a foal for me (I'm only 5ft 2) so would like a smaller stallion to put her to. She is by Fleetwater Opposition and out of an ID mare and has a lovely temperament which I'd like to retain in a foal. I'd like to produce a riding horse to do local shows and maybe some showing and hunting and would like to improve on her movement. Is suppose I've got tunnel vision for Grafenstolz seeing what he produced from ASM's OH's hunter mare who is very similar to mine.

ASM - I didn't think Primitive Proposal moved especially nicely and is the size I'd actually like the foal to be so presume I need to go smaller? I haven't been to see Future Illusion yet.

(BTW I saw you on board your lovely filly yesterday
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I just so want her!!)
 
If you mare stands at 17hh it's highly likly that she will throw a big foal, I would expect the foal to mature to a height of 16.1 to 17.2.

I don't think that using a small stallion will have any impact on the size of the foal been produced as this will normally be dependant on the size of the mare. ie small mare - small foal - small horse, Big mare - large foal - large horse.

good luck with search
 
I'd definatly be looking for a Trakehner or Tb too. I love Grafenstolz, really versitile and such a superb mothe rline.

In the UK, there are a few Trakehners aimed at the eventing market. Contis at Godington Stud - not seen him in the flesh, but he has some nice foals at the Trakehner breed show, and they have the advanced stallion hannibal, who is on the smaller side. http://www.godingtonstud.com/
Then Singing Horatio is being aimed at the eventing world too.

In Germany I would look for something from the Sixtus line - very good jumper producing line. Axis might be a little bigger than you'd like - really lovely horse, both in movement and temperament, and produces very nice jumpers. ww.trakehners.co.uk

Kasparow, super temperament, and really versitile and owned by a lovely lady http://www.stall-eicke.de/en/stallions/kasparow.php

Connery had some super offspring at the Bundeschampionate, including one out of a Hanoverian mare that looked really smart across country http://www.hoerem.de/hengste/connery/
He's quite a tall stallion, but very elegant and modern in stamo.
 
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If you mare stands at 17hh it's highly likly that she will throw a big foal, I would expect the foal to mature to a height of 16.1 to 17.2.

I don't think that using a small stallion will have any impact on the size of the foal been produced as this will normally be dependant on the size of the mare. ie small mare - small foal - small horse, Big mare - large foal - large horse.

good luck with search

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That is almost always true - but there are exceptions. It really depends on the bloodlines. Very common when WB is mixed in to produce sport ponies. Might be good in the first generation but then it can pop up a few oversized horses...

Just one example:
A young colt (connemara) that matured at 14.2 covered a mare that was about 13.1. I don't think that there were any papers for the mare but she obviously had some Arab in her. The foal matured at about 15.2-15.3...

The mare in this thread was by Fleetwater Opposition who was not that big himself. He does have some horses around or below 16.0 in his pedigree. I don't know the size of his progeny as I haven't seen any here in Sweden, but I'm sure that some forum members know?
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The mare's dam was an ID. I don't know that breed well enough to say too much about height, but aren't those quite big horses?

I'd say that this mare seems to carry medium/small size genes from her sire and bigger genes from her dam. She's big herself but that does not guarantee that she'll produce only big foals.

I do have many examples with WB mares that have a good size themselves (16.2 or bigger) but more or less produces foals below 16 hands just because their pedigrees include "smaller blood".

But of course, in most cases big mares produces big foals.

Best wishes,
Cissi the pedigree nerd
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How many eventing stallions have actually proven themselves in the sport? I had a look at Grafenstolz on the Birkhof website, he is a beauty and has won at 3* level, that's cool. But I also looked at his results as a six year old, and he was/is the first horse in German history to qualify for the six year old jumping, dressage and eventing Bundeschampionats. Bearing in mind the German standards for the jumping and dressage, that's seriously impressive.

Is Future Illusion graded yet, I'm sure he must be? He looks nice and he has made some pretty foals, but how tall is he?
 
And when you add in the strenth of Grafenstolz's motherline - he really is a superb all rounder - everything an eventer should be.

It is still less common to find stallions eventing at the top level, not sure why. I know stallions are the 'trend' in dressage for the perceived extra spark and topline, and in show jumping it is more and more common for stallions to be expected to prove themselves in sport as well as the breeding shed. Maybe as Ireland and Britain have been leading breeders of eventing stock for many years, but dont have that same legacy of proving stallions in sport (or through grading for that matter), that it is still harder to find stallions that event at the higehr levels.
Windfall is another Trakehner who events at 4 star level, with a lot of blood in his pedigree. No idea if his frozen is available over here or what he passes on to his offspring, but there are some at 3 star level I believe. Windfall is from the same sire line as Axis, that of Habicht who competed at Burghley, hence why I like that sire line for eventers.

Another stallion that evented for Ingrid Klimke was Grand Prix , who is by the TB stallion Swazi - who is the sire of Consul. I love Consul and he appears in Herszendieb's pedigree. Consul is also the grandsire of Eos, who was at 4 star level before she was injured. Another Consul grandson that competed himself to 3 star level and has offspring winning at the Bundeschampionate was Fontainbleu. And another 3 star horse with Consul as damsire this time was Herakles TSF, who won at both Bokelo and Saumur

There is a superb young show jumping stallion called Sir Graditz that as far as I know is still in the UK but doesnt seem to be breeding since the death of his owner. Was winning on the Spanish sunshine tour last year, he is a really neat blood type of horse, and I would love to use him. His sire Inster Graditz was described as a cross country machine and twice went to the Bundeschampionate till he was injured and switched to dressage. I think with larger mares, Sir Graditz would be very interesting indeed.

Amelia - Elf is in foal to him, for a pure bred foal next year. I would love a really elegant filly from her but think she's going for a colt! At least the foal should have a superb canter! Elf is by Tycoon who really jumped, but he is a bit too big I think for the OP's mare, so by putting her to Herzensdieb I hope to keep the jumping ability but also improve the paces, and keep a lighter modern type
 
Volatis, I really agree in all you say about the Trakehner lines
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A little thought about stallions and eventing - keep in mind that I live in a country where eventing is not as popular as in the UK.
I have heard from stallion owners that have stallion that would make excellent eventers that they would not let them compete in eventing since there is too much of a risk for injuries. Of course, a stallion can get injured in showjumping or even dressage, but if injured they are usually fit enough for breeding. (And often, injuries might not be severe enough to stop a competition career).

In Sweden, and in many other countries aswell I think, eventing results don't bring that many mares. Results in showjumping or dressage do.

Just my thoughts...
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Best wishes,
Cissi
 
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The mare in this thread was by Fleetwater Opposition who was not that big himself. He does have some horses around or below 16.0 in his pedigree. I don't know the size of his progeny as I haven't seen any here in Sweden, but I'm sure that some forum members know?
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Tyke has produced every single size you can imagine from little tiny 15hh up to monterous 17hh there seems little rhyme or reason to the size his foals turn out but I have seen more small than large. He himself was 16.1
 
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Well you won't be able to use Future Illusion as he is by Fleetwater Opposition
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Illusion is not graded (yet
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) another forum member had said that he was small. I have not seen him out & about as a performance sire/eventer, although i have seen him showing in-hand. Pretty foals but it would be nice to see what he can do out eventing especialy as he is being produced (i think i am right in saying) by JB.
 
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Amelia - Elf is in foal to him, for a pure bred foal next year. I would love a really elegant filly from her but think she's going for a colt! At least the foal should have a superb canter! Elf is by Tycoon who really jumped, but he is a bit too big I think for the OP's mare, so by putting her to Herzensdieb I hope to keep the jumping ability but also improve the paces, and keep a lighter modern type

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Wow ! I bet that will be a super foal V
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- cant wait to see that one ...... and keeping my fingers crossed for you that its a filly !! I am also a Grafenstolz's fan
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and boy can he perform
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The few foals I have seen by him have all been a little sharp - but if they perform half as well as thier sire it will have been worth it
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I used to work for a top international eventer and she believed that often stallions wouldnt "try" that little bit extra which is often needed in eventing. She did have a very nice stallion which she competed very succesfully to advanced however that was still what she believed
 
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I am also a Grafenstolz's fan
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and boy can he perform
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The few foals I have seen by him have all been a little sharp - but if they perform half as well as thier sire it will have been worth it
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Let's hope so
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I'm not sure I totally agree with the large mare large foal part of this thread - my 17.1hh broodmare has been bred to a small tb and to Grafenstolz and all foals have come out lighter mid way between the two. Coincidence maybe but I would always go for a smaller sire to refine her and it's worked so far!
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Anna123 - Volatis, Amelia and others have given you some lovely suggestions - I especially liked Contis when I saw him and Axis is one of my top choices when I come to breed from Heidi (though a larger stallion as Volatis says). Good luck - you've got all winter to decide at least and in time to go to the odd stallion show (though I'd stay clear of Birkhof.s.......
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Gosh thank you so much everyone for all your suggestions. Really so far I've just been looking at local stallions as to go further afield becomes a minefield to me so thank you for your suggestions as I can now start looking with a purpose.

I am a bit concerned though about the large mare likely to produce a large foal. My mare has never had a foal before (as far as I'm aware) and so have nothing to go by with her. I really wouldn't want to produce a foal as big as her (not for me anyway!). Surely if I bred her to a tiny pony stallion the foal would be smaller - or is this not so?
 
I think if you stick to lighter, modern framed stallions, and who dont have a history of throwing very large foals, or have very large ancestors, then you should be OK. Yes if you breed her to a pony stallion, you should get something smaller, but height genes dont merge if you see what I mean (ie, small plus large equals medium) but it depends which parent passes on which genes responsible for the height and size. Some stallions are very dominant in throwing their size onto their foals, some are not, so thats something to consider.
 
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Well you won't be able to use Future Illusion as he is by Fleetwater Opposition
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I said not to use Future Illusion as the OP's mare is ALSO by Fleetwater Opposition....thats some fairly close in-breeding!
 

I was agreeing with you Touchwood
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- I am just cr@p at using smilies lol and had intended them to mean/read ..... that I was confussed as to why the poster had returned to this stallion as a possibility x
 
The difficulty we found in eventing a stallion was balancing the cost, the ability to keep him fit and free from injury and having available at the right time for mare owners. In the end there was very little to gain and a lot to lose by keeping competing.
I have heard people say this about stallions and joking about them being precious about their parts! But we found it was only about gaining their trust about leaving what they deemed to be their herd. The same problem can appear with mares as well as they are entires as well.
 
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I was agreeing with you Touchwood
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- I am just cr@p at using smilies lol and had intended them to mean/read ..... that I was confussed as to why the poster had returned to this stallion as a possibility x

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Not quite sure what you mean Amelia - I hadn't looked at FI's pedigree yet, ASM had recommended him to me as a local stallion (at the time I didn't know my mare's breeding as hadn't looked in her passport). So of course I wouldn't think of him now that I know they share the same sire!
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