Stallion owners that aren't picky

[Kaylum]

Never understood why stallion owners arent picky what mares their stallion covers. We vetted every mare first. But looking at some of the threads on here accessing mares whether they are good enough to breed from if the stud does t think they are good enough they shouldn't cover using their stallion. Be more responsible from a stud point of view? Would this help in you deciding if the mare is good enough to breed from?

 

[brighteyes]

Money? I have seen some shocking examples of brood mares and know of two which have never produced a decent, useful all-rounder yet!

Money HAS to be the only reason.

 

[hippomaniac]

Money is the reason, Stud owners have a business to run, Horses to feed, vet bills to pay etc etc It would be wonderful if all the Mares that came to a stallion were world class, but this is real life and a stud is a business. I am not saying this is right, just stateing the facts

 

[AmyMay]

I must say that I was surprised at this too, when researching stallions for my very, very ordinary little mare. But it is of course about money - and the fact, I suppose, that there are less 'hobby' breeders around than those doing it in a more professional capacity. So theoretically you're always going to get good stock on the ground.

 

[Kaylum]

So why are there so many unsuitable mares for breeding regarding passing on their qualities and looks? How have these been bred? Bad mare with a good stallion or bad mare with a bad stallion or good mare with a bad stallion?

I could go on but its another thing to think about.

 

[AmyMay]

So why are there so many unsuitable mares for breeding regarding passing on their qualities and looks? How have these been bred? Bad mare with a good stallion or bad mare with a bad stallion or good mare with a bad stallion?

I could go on but its another thing to think about.

Sometimes it's just plain bad luck. You can put the best horses together, and still come out with a donkey.

But you can put an average mare to a very good stallion and come out with a world beater.

 

[Capriole]

I was looking at a stallion from one of mine, he had been at private stud covering mares by invitation only, in his last home.
The lady at the place I saw him told me anyone who can afford the stud fee can use him, and I must admit I saw some poor specimens of mares on the yard that were there to visit him.
I was a bit taken aback by her attitude, although I do realise she has to make her living.

 

[Kaylum]

I was looking at a stallion from one of mine, he had been at private stud covering mares by invitation only, in his last home.
The lady at the place I saw him told me anyone who can afford the stud fee can use him, and I must admit I saw some poor specimens of mares on the yard that were there to visit him.
I was a bit taken aback by her attitude, although I do realise she has to make her living.

Exactly irresponsible breeding for the money which is why we have so many poor examples of mares wanting coverings.

Its a shame it really is. Same with some stud dog owners. Dont always blame the owners of female animals when the owners of the male ones are just as bad.

 

[Capriole]

*oops that was stallion FOR one of mine, not from btw.*

 

[Maesfen]

There's also the view that if the owner is going to breed anyway whether it's your stallion or another's and in this day and age, why would you give money away to someone else when it could be lining your pocket.

 

[Fahrenheit]

I can see why it would be differcult for the stallion owner in the world of AI, when they are shipping chilled and frozen semen out, it must get to the stage where the mare could be just a piece of paper with her details on to them. I just had a mare scanned infoal to a well know stallion (quite excited as have wanted to use this stallion for a few years and finally have) and all the stallion station know about the mare is her name, age, height, colour, pedigree and breeding history. They don't know what she looks like, how she is put together, what her competition records are.

 

[jamesmead]

I was speaking years ago to a stallion owner about selecting mares. His view was that his job was to help the mare owner achieve the foal they wanted, not to pontificate on whether or not their mare matched his view of an ideal horse. The mare owner was the client; he was the expert and put his expertise at the client's disposal. He felt strongly that his stallions were good enough to improve on what they covered and that the next generation would therefore be a step forward. If they were not able to improve on most mares, they were not suitable to be left entire.

He wouldn't cover a mare that would herself be put at undue risk by covering or by carrying a foal, but otherwise, it was the client's call.

I think he got it right.

 

[Blacklist]

In a perfect world yes. But studs have to earn a living and cannot afford to be too choosey, if the mare has the appropriate certificates i.e. for CEM etc. I have known mares who are not particularly pretty or talented but have bred many talented, good-looking offspring to different stallions.

QUOTE=Kaylum;10704261]Never understood why stallion owners arent picky what mares their stallion covers. We vetted every mare first. But looking at some of the threads on here accessing mares whether they are good enough to breed from if the stud does t think they are good enough they shouldn't cover using their stallion. Be more responsible from a stud point of view? Would this help in you deciding if the mare is good enough to breed from?[/QUOTE]

 

[angrovestud]

jamesmead that so true, and one mans drink is another mans poision we as a stud have to have our standards of what we want to breed to meet the criteria, but do tescos look at the poor woman who wants value beans and say no go to the corner shop! I am afraid its survival of the fittest right now those who stand on the high ground may well go hungry.wont take booking or sell foals.
I wouldnt have choosen some of the mares that were bred at our stud as they wouldnt have suited my taste, but thats so personal,not because there was anything wrong but they were not for me Tbs 100% at least the horses that were bred the people are very happy with them and I am in touch with the vast majority of the owners who keep me updated and it will be the same now with the young stallion he has improved the progeny of a mare that was not to my taste.

 

[wits end]

I personally am picky. Right now the only stallion I have is 4 y/o and I want his first couple of crops to be using really special mares so that in future people wanting to use him can look back and see what they could potentially get.
This year we're due 3 by him each to exceptional mares with great conformation and competition records, and for the 2013 season we will be using outside mares who have been 'vetted'.
I can see why bigger stallion owners would be more interested in profit that using the best mares possible, they want the money to make their investment worthwhile.

 

[angrovestud]

I think its a very hard call we had a heavy weight mare here that had won loads of Chaps champs 2 blue eyes and a piebald heavy cob, now I would not breed a show cob, do I a say I dont breed heavy weights so you cant come here? I was happy with what our ex stallion would do for my customers mare's and they were very pleased with the progeny good job all round also we had people with clydes same again we would not breed one, but we are a (public stud) I think there is far to much emphasis on breeding for the top end all the time and not enough people breeding giving consideration for the average rider who when has a well bred sports horse has to get someone else to ride it.

for me its about having a stallion that will give the stud what it wants to breed, as well as giving the customer a foal - young horse they can deal with and that can in the right hands do a job it was bred for. when this does not happen we end up with horses on the junk heap, this is why we have to many horses it comes down to great customer service and caring about the customers needs and meeting that expectation with excellence.
edited to add I do however very much regret not using our young stallion sooner

 

[hippomaniac]

jamesmead that so true, and one mans drink is another mans poision we as a stud have to have our standards of what we want to breed to meet the criteria, but do tescos look at the poor woman who wants value beans and say no go to the corner shop! I am afraid its survival of the fittest right now those who stand on the high ground may well go hungry.wont take booking or sell foals.
I wouldnt have choosen some of the mares that were bred at our stud as they wouldnt have suited my taste, but thats so personal,not because there was anything wrong but they were not for me Tbs 100% at least the horses that were bred the people are very happy with them and I am in touch with the vast majority of the owners who keep me updated and it will be the same now with the young stallion he has improved the progeny of a mare that was not to my taste.

Well said Angrove, couldnt have put it better

 

[s4sugar]

There is a big difference between a mare of a less preferred type and one that is poorly put together.
When I was looking four years ago I short-listed about a dozen stallions. I removed any that were being used on poor mares / producing cheap foals. I also discarded two who were associated with puppy farming.
Of the final three all owners wanted details & pictures of my mare. All were happy with her and I booked the second stallion I viewed.

If I were considering another foal I would expect the stallion owner to be a bit selective. A rubbish foal is a poor reflection on both parents but it is the sire that gets more blame.

 

[Enfys]

Exactly irresponsible breeding for the money which is why we have so many poor examples of mares wanting coverings.

.

If someone is determined to breed their mare, then breed her they will, to anything with the equipment if they have to.

So, does a stallion owner take the cash, give them a chance to breed something that could be an improvement on the mare, or do they shrug their shoulders and send the mare off to the nearest cow coloured cart horse (for example) on the common to beget another cow coloured carthorse? It is a vicious circle.

As someone said, the best bred animals can produce an absolute 'donkey' whereas less aristocratic/fashionable pairings may produce something quite spectacular, in looks, temperament, performance etc.

Jamesmead and Angrovestud both make very valid points I think

 

[Kaylum]

I was speaking years ago to a stallion owner about selecting mares. His view was that his job was to help the mare owner achieve the foal they wanted, not to pontificate on whether or not their mare matched his view of an ideal horse. The mare owner was the client; he was the expert and put his expertise at the client's disposal. He felt strongly that his stallions were good enough to improve on what they covered and that the next generation would therefore be a step forward. If they were not able to improve on most mares, they were not suitable to be left entire.

He wouldn't cover a mare that would herself be put at undue risk by covering or by carrying a foal, but otherwise, it was the client's call.

I think he got it right.

and then we see there are people asking on here what stallions to use and others saying the mare is not good enough to breed from. Sorry but a stud is a business but it's also got responsibilities. It's a shame it really is.

 

[Cherrygarden]

My main concern when talking to potential breeders/mare owners on behalf of my stallions and the ones that I work for so to speak is what kind of people they are as I feel responsible for any foals that are born. I am probably not cut out for breeding my own to sell or standing any at stud. I have not licensed my nearly 4 year old WPB yet mostly because I think the license is too weak and it doesn't give him a right lot of credence but also because I am not sure I can cope with babies going to idiots and what if I make the wrong choice? However on the subject of people will breed if they want to that is why I stand or promote anything at all locally as I only deal with horses that have positives to bring forward and think that giving people more options than the one eyed coloured cob that advertised no restrictions a couple of years ago. That said there are now some really nice stallions about locally but people don't always find the time to go further than the local tack shop to look for adverts. I gave a mare owner who came to look at mine several stud cards to take home and a copy of horse deals with stallions marked in it. She had never thought of looking in Horse Deals and hadn't heard of the SPSS stallion list but at the end of the day wanted something local that didn't involve her much loved mare running out with a coloured cob that had no health papers and Amour G was a tad too big for a 13.1. If I had thought the stallion had too much work to do I may have turned her down but as it goes the mare that had the best breeding so to speak is the one he has had the most work to do with so it isn't ever quite like it looks on paper.

 

[cruiseline]

Before I begin, I would like to point out that I do not agree to mares who have known hereditary or genetic flaws, chronic conformational faults, serious temperament issues etc. etc. being used for the purpose of breeding. When I refer to mares in my following comments, one should assume that none of the above characteristics are presented.

A stallion with correct conformation, a good temperament, an ability to perform, a sound pedigree, no hereditary or genetic faults and one who is proving that he passes these qualities on to his offspring, will always have a positive influence on a visiting mare no matter what she is. I have never refused to discuss the possibility of using my stallion with any mare owners. I have however, had clients who have chosen to either not breed from their mare, or move on to another stallion as a result of our discussion. For me it is all part of educating the equestrian community, if you think about it, it probably costs less to keep a correct horse than it does one with faults.

We are all different, we all want different things from our horses. Some really do want to breed for an Olympic gold, but there are many many more who want to breed a local show winner, or a horse that they can hack straight from the field because that is just about as much time as they can dedicate to their hobby. I actually find it very refreshing when a mare owner feels the need to seek out a quality stallion to improve on their mare, even if the resulting foal is aimed at lower level competition, or even none at all. If someone wants to spend the rest of their life hacking, why do so many make it sound like a sin if the horse they are doing it on is of quality!

If we are too improve British Breeding, then we should be educating mare owners regarding the benefits of using a quality stallion, rather than turning them away, quality will never be improve unless quality is used. There are literally thousand of riders in the UK who have no idea what the breeding means in their horses passport and it would make no difference to them if they did either.

Yes, stallion owners have a duty, but for me it is a role of educating not judging.

 

[templewood]

People have to take responsibility for their own decisions. They can't go blaming someone else all the time. If the mare owner wants to use a certain stallion, then that's their choice. Many top performers haven't had the best conformation, in fact some have been terrible. As others have said, a great looking mare can carry genes which will result in a donkey and a bad mare can carry good genes and produce a good foal. Many old and successfull studs choose their own stallions and mares on what they produce and not how they look themselves.
There's an old saying, that a good stallion will produce offspring as good as his self, but a great stallion will produce offspring better than himself.

The real problem is not mare owners who want to breed a foal for themselves, but people who think that they are going to breed the next Totillas and use stallions who they have never seen. The result is too many average, highly bred horses that most people can't manage and don't want, flooding the market.

 

[templewood]

I have to add, that I personally would only breed from a mare or stallion with good conformation and temperament, as I'm very fussy about that, but I'm just pointing out that it's not all cut and dried.
Also, one of the studs I'm thinking of, destroys anything with bad conformation or temperament that it produces!

 

[Enfys]

Before I begin, I would like to point out that I do not agree to mares who have known hereditary or genetic flaws, chronic conformational faults, serious temperament issues etc. etc. being used for the purpose of breeding. When I refer to mares in my following comments, one should assume that none of the above characteristics are presented.

A stallion with correct conformation, a good temperament, an ability to perform, a sound pedigree, no hereditary or genetic faults and one who is proving that he passes these qualities on to his offspring, will always have a positive influence on a visiting mare no matter what she is. I have never refused to discuss the possibility of using my stallion with any mare owners. I have however, had clients who have chosen to either not breed from their mare, or move on to another stallion as a result of our discussion. For me it is all part of educating the equestrian community, if you think about it, it probably costs less to keep a correct horse than it does one with faults.

We are all different, we all want different things from our horses. Some really do want to breed for an Olympic gold, but there are many many more who want to breed a local show winner, or a horse that they can hack straight from the field because that is just about as much time as they can dedicate to their hobby. I actually find it very refreshing when a mare owner feels the need to seek out a quality stallion to improve on their mare, even if the resulting foal is aimed at lower level competition, or even none at all. If someone wants to spend the rest of their life hacking, why do so many make it sound like a sin if the horse they are doing it on is of quality!

If we are too improve British Breeding, then we should be educating mare owners regarding the benefits of using a quality stallion, rather than turning them away, quality will never be improve unless quality is used. There are literally thousand of riders in the UK who have no idea what the breeding means in their horses passport and it would make no difference to them if they did either.

Yes, stallion owners have a duty, but for me it is a role of educating not judging.

...

 

[AdorableAlice]

Before I begin, I would like to point out that I do not agree to mares who have known hereditary or genetic flaws, chronic conformational faults, serious temperament issues etc. etc. being used for the purpose of breeding. When I refer to mares in my following comments, one should assume that none of the above characteristics are presented.

A stallion with correct conformation, a good temperament, an ability to perform, a sound pedigree, no hereditary or genetic faults and one who is proving that he passes these qualities on to his offspring, will always have a positive influence on a visiting mare no matter what she is. I have never refused to discuss the possibility of using my stallion with any mare owners. I have however, had clients who have chosen to either not breed from their mare, or move on to another stallion as a result of our discussion. For me it is all part of educating the equestrian community, if you think about it, it probably costs less to keep a correct horse than it does one with faults.


We are all different, we all want different things from our horses. Some really do want to breed for an Olympic gold, but there are many many more who want to breed a local show winner, or a horse that they can hack straight from the field because that is just about as much time as they can dedicate to their hobby. I actually find it very refreshing when a mare owner feels the need to seek out a quality stallion to improve on their mare, even if the resulting foal is aimed at lower level competition, or even none at all. If someone wants to spend the rest of their life hacking, why do so many make it sound like a sin if the horse they are doing it on is of quality!

If we are too improve British Breeding, then we should be educating mare owners regarding the benefits of using a quality stallion, rather than turning them away, quality will never be improve unless quality is used. There are literally thousand of riders in the UK who have no idea what the breeding means in their horses passport and it would make no difference to them if they did either.

Yes, stallion owners have a duty, but for me it is a role of educating not judging.

Superb post and this comment and thread should be read alongside the thread recently started by MouseInTheHouse.

 

[Kaylum]

Before I begin, I would like to point out that I do not agree to mares who have known hereditary or genetic flaws, chronic conformational faults, serious temperament issues etc. etc. being used for the purpose of breeding. When I refer to mares in my following comments, one should assume that none of the above characteristics are presented.

A stallion with correct conformation, a good temperament, an ability to perform, a sound pedigree, no hereditary or genetic faults and one who is proving that he passes these qualities on to his offspring, will always have a positive influence on a visiting mare no matter what she is. I have never refused to discuss the possibility of using my stallion with any mare owners. I have however, had clients who have chosen to either not breed from their mare, or move on to another stallion as a result of our discussion. For me it is all part of educating the equestrian community, if you think about it, it probably costs less to keep a correct horse than it does one with faults.

We are all different, we all want different things from our horses. Some really do want to breed for an Olympic gold, but there are many many more who want to breed a local show winner, or a horse that they can hack straight from the field because that is just about as much time as they can dedicate to their hobby. I actually find it very refreshing when a mare owner feels the need to seek out a quality stallion to improve on their mare, even if the resulting foal is aimed at lower level competition, or even none at all. If someone wants to spend the rest of their life hacking, why do so many make it sound like a sin if the horse they are doing it on is of quality!

If we are too improve British Breeding, then we should be educating mare owners regarding the benefits of using a quality stallion, rather than turning them away, quality will never be improve unless quality is used. There are literally thousand of riders in the UK who have no idea what the breeding means in their horses passport and it would make no difference to them if they did either.

Yes, stallion owners have a duty, but for me it is a role of educating not judging.

It is exactly. Educating about breeding and about the breed. Showing why a mare is not the best to breed from. Educating those that dont understand what to look for. We all think our mares are the best thing ever whatever they look like, but being a bit more choosey what you cover with your stallion will bring British Breeding back into its own. This is how stallion owners can make a difference. Keep good conformation therefore helping what your breeding to be of a good standard, whether you just hack or want to do more, stamping out health problems and giving a horse a good start in life.

 

[Enfys]

It is exactly. Educating about breeding and about the breed. Showing why a mare is not the best to breed from. Educating those that dont understand what to look for. We all think our mares are the best thing ever whatever they look like, but being a bit more choosey what you cover with your stallion will bring British Breeding back into its own. This is how stallion owners can make a difference.

I agree with your comments Kaylum, but it still isn't going to make the slightest bit of difference to those who are hellbent on breeding a foal, regardless of what anyone else thinks of their mare.

I explained to friends why I wouldn't use Zeus on their pony mare (12 hand miniature/hackney cross - the sheer size difference, he's 15h and weighs over 1200lbs) they were not amused as they thought they'd get a free covering as I was/am a friend, so they took her up the road to another stallion and threw them in a paddock together, that horse is a good 400lbs heavier and is almost 16h. Actually they got a cracking colt, I was damned if I did, damned if I didn't - if they'd got the palomino they wanted (which they didn't) I would have been flavour of the month, if the mare had had a bad time, died, lost the foal etc, etc that would have been my fault.

 

[Kaylum]

I agree with your comments Kaylum, but it still isn't going to make the slightest bit of difference to those who are hellbent on breeding a foal, regardless of what anyone else thinks of their mare.

I explained to friends why I wouldn't use Zeus on their pony mare (12 hand miniature/hackney cross - the sheer size difference, he's 15h and weighs over 1200lbs) they were not amused as they thought they'd get a free covering as I was/am a friend, so they took her up the road to another stallion and threw them in a paddock together, that horse is a good 400lbs heavier and is almost 16h. Actually they got a cracking colt, I was damned if I did, damned if I didn't - if they'd got the palomino they wanted (which they didn't) I would have been flavour of the month, if the mare had had a bad time, died, lost the foal etc, etc that would have been my fault.

I know its just the way I feel about things. I wont go on about it anymore. LOL!

 

[jamesmead]

It is exactly. Educating about breeding and about the breed. Showing why a mare is not the best to breed from. Educating those that dont understand what to look for. We all think our mares are the best thing ever whatever they look like, but being a bit more choosey what you cover with your stallion will bring British Breeding back into its own. This is how stallion owners can make a difference. Keep good conformation therefore helping what your breeding to be of a good standard, whether you just hack or want to do more, stamping out health problems and giving a horse a good start in life.

This sounds hunky dory, but stallion owners should surely not be expected to act as police officers, or rather as judge and jury in this way. For a start, whilst we would hope they are knowledgeable, they are not omniscient. The mare owner is almost certainly going to know the mare better than the stallion owner does and is also going to know what he or she wants to breed; and as Angrove pointed out, that might be something which is anathema to the stallion owner without being bad in itself.

My stallion owner eventually retired (sort of; his retirement still seems to involve a few dozen youngstock and a pedigree herd of cattle) partly through age but partly through disillusionment, I think, with the way breeding was going; he was an old fashioned, TB, ID type guy; but the growing fashion was for imported warmbloods and he could not compromise his principles to embrace those early warmbloods, some of which were dire; big moving and pedigreed to the nth degree, but coarse, with conformational faults that we had all but weeded out in this country at that time due to our heavy reliance on TB blood and the need for the (lightweight) TB to be mechanically correct. I'm talking upright shoulders, upright pasterns, tied in below the knee, back at the knee, too little bone below the knee for such big horses, shallow through the body... He felt it was a backward step. He saw not just mares, but stallions at stud with faults which he would never accept in his own stock. If anyone said "Hey, what are we doing?" they were quoted the superiority and reliability of continental grading systems...

Clearly these horses also had positive qualities; someone bred from them and had sufficient vision to create what we see today. So who was right?

But I would say that the conflicting idealogies still remain to the point where I would defy anyone to successfully define good conformation. Even something as basic as "The feet shall point forward" has been shown to be debatable. (Young TBs are apparently more likely to stay sound on the track if their feet turn out a bit). Dressage conformation particularly seems IMO to demand features which must ultimately contribute to unsoundness; but that's probably true, to some extent, of every discipline.

Meanwhile, I would guess most "family friend" type horses are pretty sound in themselves relative to the work they have to do and their main problems are those of managing a horse with a "good-doer's" constitution on modern grazing.