ktj1891
Well-Known Member
I am worried now. Presentation as in- head and legs first. If so not sure as loaner came out straight after having her, but she must have been the right way around as nothing was mentioned.
Stallion suggestions for my pony mare
- Thread starter ktj1891
- Start date
I am worried now. Presentation as in- head and legs first. If so not sure as loaner came out straight after having her, but she must have been the right way around as nothing was mentioned.
FreshandMinty
Well-Known Member
she is out on breeding contract to someone else though isnt she? presuming then the loaner will keep your mare for another 6 months at least you’ll be looking at next spring for covering anyway, so no hurry? Can I ask what was the reason she went out on breeding loan to someone else, was there something specific about your mare the loaner desired?
Maesfen
Extremely Old Nag!
I would seriously look at H Tobago, a full Arab. Your mare is nicely made and he would bring refinement to the mix coupled with good movement and temperament. I have had two Tobago's, both full Anglo Arabs and they have been delightful with exceptional movement and charisma; both will be aimed at an eventing career if it suits them. If you search on here there are lots of threads about him and his owner is one of the very nicest person I've ever met in the horse world who will bend over backwards for you. He stands at Cliveden but he is only by AI. Here's one of the threads on here and if you follow it all the way through you will see why so many breeders have used him on both their sport mares and different native crosses with such success. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?513073-H-Tobago
Spring Feather
Well-Known Member
Yes, head and legs first, with one leg slightly leading and head/neck the right way round lying alongside and above the second leg. So no-one saw the mare delivering the foal? I'd be furious with your loan person for not being there for the foaling. Not much gets my back up but I cannot understand why people do not attend births. So much can, and does, go wrong and if you don't see the actual birth then you can have absolutely no idea whether the foal presented properly or whether the mare had a traumatic time. Mares are good at appearing well after foaling, when sometimes they are not and have suffered internal damage. I foal out all of the mares here so I know exactly what has happened at the foaling and have a very good idea if there may be any potential problems heading our way.
ktj1891
Well-Known Member
No I know, it is worrying and her first foaling. I went up that evening to see her and she seemed okay but as you said they can present themselves that way. If it was my foal I would be there every night watching. So no I don't know exactly what happened as I have no experience with breeding I wouldn't have even thought of these things. I am going back at weekend to see her and will ask about how foal was born and clarify what the vet did when he came out. The sac hanging out of her bits then, does that not look right?
Spring Feather
Well-Known Member
The remnant of the amniotic sac has been hacked away at. I know no one who would do that and except for highly extraordinary situations no one would pull the placenta out of a mare without having tried everything else available over the course of many many hours. I very much doubt the vet used has the slightest clue about equine reproduction if we are to go on what he's done to your mare. Unless there's a very valid reason for what he's done I'd not be letting him within 100 miles of my broodmares!
Clodagh
Rage, rage, against the dying of the light.
I do hope your mare is OK, I think she is a lovely type. I would go for a pure bred stallion if you choose to breed again, H Tobago is stunning, or a pure tb perhaps.
All the best for the future.
All the best for the future.
ktj1891
Well-Known Member
The amniotic sac different to the placenta I take it? This is worrying, I need to confirm what vet did, I know she was doped though and had hand stuck up her bits and given an injection. Just didn't think much of it as thought it was a standard thing.
Rollin
Well-Known Member
That was the particular Arab I was thinking of!!
ktj1891
Well-Known Member
Would the foal off my mare be classed as Anglo Arab though? I thought that was just to x Arabs??
Equi
Well-Known Member
Check what actually occurred during and after the birth. The vet pulling the placenta out can seriously damage her uterus, so she may never breed again. A traumatic birth may have been down to inexperience, a large foal or just one of those things, but if it happens once it can happen again. Also what injection was given? Was it suitable for a lactating mare? Was the mare wormed after birth?
ktj1891
Well-Known Member
No one was there whilst giving birth, so don't think anyone can say what happened during. I don't understand why a vet should do that if they know that they shouldn't? She is a maiden mare so could have been inexperience. I don't know what injection it was just that it was to pass the placenta, also don't know about worming.
Equi
Well-Known Member
To pass the placenta it could have been an inducing jab which is common, but the vet would not have pulled the placenta from the mare it would have to be passed naturally. The vet would only pull it out if it was in too long and in danger of infecting the mare, and from the time scale you give i don't think that was the case.
As for the vet, could be his own inexperience too. I asked one equine vet who came to me about washing out and cultures and he couldn't tell me a damn thing tbh.
As for the vet, could be his own inexperience too. I asked one equine vet who came to me about washing out and cultures and he couldn't tell me a damn thing tbh.
ktj1891
Well-Known Member
Oh dear this does make me worry a lot. If it was my foal etc I would have been doing everything to the book. I have just bought a book in fact about foaling and I don't even have my own mare in foal for myself. He's the repo vet for this particular practice so you would think he would know what he's doing? I do believe it was an inducing jab but as you said the time frame doesn't seem long!
whirlwindhorses
Well-Known Member
The umbilical cord may have broken as soon as foal was born, so foal could be covered in blood for that reason, it does happen especially if a mare gets up as soon as foal is born. Blood is transfused from the mare to the foal after birth down the cord, that is why you try not to disturb the mare in to getting up to quickly. The jab would of been oxytocin (sp) and its quite normal for a vet to carefully remove the placenta, i've had a few mares that don't cleanse by themselves. If you were to put your mare to a homozygous App/Knab stallion be aware that you might get a white snowcap/fewspot coloured foal.
ktj1891
Well-Known Member
Thank you for your reply- this has helped me relax a lot with a different viewpoint! What does cleanse mean basically dispelling the placenta?
Equi
Well-Known Member
Basically. When it is passed, it should be looked at to ensure it ihas not broken off in bits. Pulling it out incorrectly or too soon can result in it breaking and the mare retaining parts in her uterus, which is where septicaemia comes in.
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
No, an anglo-arab has only TB and arab blood, so it's impossible for you to breed an anglo with your mare. You could however breed a Part Bred Arab (PBA) and as long as the foal has 12.5 % arab blood I believe it can be registered with the Arab Horse Society and could take part in PBA showing classes and the Arabian Performance Awards.
If you decide to go down the Arab route look at a wide selection of stallions. Arabs vary a lot and you will be able to find one that suits your mare especially if you widen the search to anglos and PBA's too (remembering that a stallion with only some arab blood needs to be at least 25% arab to ensure the foal is 12.5%).
Have a look at the AHS's Premium Performance Scheme stallions, as that would be a good starting point. If you really want dressage to be the main aim and you want a pure arab, then Dervatiw Gwyddion would be worth looking at, although he is tall for an arab.
My main advice if going for a pure arab is to not get swayed by a pretty head, the legs and the rest of the horse's conformation must be good too. Also the stallion must compliment your mare and be strong in her weaker areas.
It is also worth considering two things, 1, do you really need to breed in this economic climate? 2, would you be better of buying a weanling/youngster?
I hope that your mare is OK.
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Peregrine Falcon
Looking for the light
My mare foaled a few minutes before I got there last year. I kept the placenta etc to inspect in the daylight. I had two different reactions from my children when I showed them it. George (youngest son) went pale, William (who is the rider and loves ponies) stuck his hands in the bucket!
Equi
Well-Known Member
Lol everyone is different! I'd be the one who would stick their hands in and look at each part. I loved biology!
ktj1891
Well-Known Member
I didn't really consider if I could get a snowcap/fewspot foal. Although I would particularly mind. Nice to hear that all that seems to be the case with my mare may not be as worrying as I thought!?
ktj1891
Well-Known Member
Sorry spelling error, yes I meant TB x arab. I wouldn't be swayed by the head and I dont like them when their heads are too small and dished. I have to say arab is growing on me, my friend owns an Arab x tb x cob and he has to be the soundest horse I have ever know even now at 17. I think I know my mares weaker areas which is her short neck and how compact she is.
I wouldn't be rushing out to do it, but its something I really wanted to do especially as I 'thought' her first foaling experience had gone well and shes showing great motherhood. I am going to see her tomorrow and was sent a pic yesterday Mum and baby looking well.
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
You're right, she is compact. I would be wary of going for a stallion with a long back though, compact is preferable to weak.
I would however want a stallion with short cannons, the Polish Arab, Edeon springs to mind as does another Polish Arab, Zygmunt. You wont get a super extreme head from a crossing with your mare, even if you bred her to something with a typey head like Master Design GA (who's got some good performance stock that I'm very impressed with) although the foal will look very araby when born, the head will 'dry out' as it ages.
Also have a look at the results from the ridden arab stallion class at HOYS for the last few years. The Crabbet Arab, Silvern Prince is a really nice ridden horse and he was HOYS champion in 2010 and Khlassic Design (by the aforementioned Master Design GA) really impressed me at HOYS last year.
Maybe go to the Arab National Championship Show at Malvern and see some horses in the flesh?
Good luck with your visit tomorrow, I hope the problem was a minor one and that she and her foal are doing well.
I would however want a stallion with short cannons, the Polish Arab, Edeon springs to mind as does another Polish Arab, Zygmunt. You wont get a super extreme head from a crossing with your mare, even if you bred her to something with a typey head like Master Design GA (who's got some good performance stock that I'm very impressed with) although the foal will look very araby when born, the head will 'dry out' as it ages.
Also have a look at the results from the ridden arab stallion class at HOYS for the last few years. The Crabbet Arab, Silvern Prince is a really nice ridden horse and he was HOYS champion in 2010 and Khlassic Design (by the aforementioned Master Design GA) really impressed me at HOYS last year.
Maybe go to the Arab National Championship Show at Malvern and see some horses in the flesh?
Good luck with your visit tomorrow, I hope the problem was a minor one and that she and her foal are doing well.
twiggy2
Well-Known Member
why do you want to breed from this specific mare (apart from your attachment to her)?
i am not having a dig just curious, if you want a horse with a different body shape, movement and height she may not be the best breeding stock to use.
much cheaper/quicker and safer to buy what you want rather than trying to breed it especially from stock from unknown lines, you have no idea what she might throw back to
i am not having a dig just curious, if you want a horse with a different body shape, movement and height she may not be the best breeding stock to use.
much cheaper/quicker and safer to buy what you want rather than trying to breed it especially from stock from unknown lines, you have no idea what she might throw back to
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ktj1891
Well-Known Member
Its definitely got sentimental purposes but also would love to breed my own. My mare was my lifetime horse and just want to have something that has a part of her but potentially a bit bigger and longer. However, as its been stated that I may not even get a bigger foal its something to consider.
As I am curious what makes a mare worthwhile breeding from if you only want the foal to keep? I know you cannot predict the way things may turn out, but there are tonnes of horses out their that have unknown breeding but are fantastic horses, would I really be adding to the problem to breed 1 foal for myself?
FreshandMinty
Well-Known Member
thats understandable of course
Yes there are tonnes of horses out there with unknown breeding and yes they are fantastic but even really good, top level horses with good breeding are not selling at the moment. You only have to go to one of the sales to see what can happen. Im still curious, why did the loaner choose your mare for breeding loan? Im not being funny, genuinely interested!
ktj1891
Well-Known Member
that’s understandable of course
Im still curious, why did the loaner choose your mare for breeding loan? Im not being funny, genuinely interested!
I know her anyway and she is just setting her own stud, wanted to use some different mares to see what they throw, she had my mare, a SJ pony, a tradition cob and a welsh d.
Crugeran Celt
Well-Known Member
I agree with this. I bred from my pony mare many years ago and luckily she foaled perfectly and all was well with mare and foal except that foal wasn't exactly what I wanted her to be. Twenty one years on I still have her and always will but I would have been far better off buying the right horse for me. Three years ago I bought a miniature that was already in foal but the foal was still born a month early, thank God the mare was fine and healthy but traumatized by the experience. It was heartbreaking to loose the foal but I know of many who have lost their mares as well which must be devastating knowing they have chosen to breed from the mare. I would never breed again, my mares are way to precious to me.
Also when the miniature had a still birth, she cleansed pretty quickly but vet was called to make sure she was ok. He checked placenta which was whole and healthy and did examine her internally to make she there was nothing left. So perhaps that is what the vet did with your mare. Also my vet did inject my mare with an antibiotic and a pain killer so again that could have been the same as your vet gave your mare.
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whirlwindhorses
Well-Known Member
If both mare and foal are doing okay then no i would not be that worried. Yes cleansing is the mare passing the placenta also known as afterbirth.
I have one mare who has had fifteen foals, she has only cleansed by herself with five of them including this years which was a red bag delivery. The rest the vet has had to remove. With her i usually give her up to ten hours to cleanse and then call vet if she hasn't. Mares i don't know i usually give 7-8 hours to cleanse, quite a few will cleanse between 7-8 hours some will cleanse within 40 mins of foaling. If they haven't cleansed by ten hours then they usually won't cleanse on their own even with a jab of oxytocin. The vet gives them a jab of oxytocin and a pain killer (i have had mares colic quite badly when given oxytocin after foaling so i always ask them to give her a pain killer if they haven't already), then they slowly and carefully remove it. If a lot of the afterbirth was still in the mare and had been in there a while, then they will usually also put antibiotic straight into the mares uterus as well as giving her a few days of antibiotics.
If you are thinking of an Arab stallion look up the black Arab stallion Deemonstrator. He is an FEI level advanced Endurance horse. He also has a huge jump in him and a fantastic kind temperament which he passes on to his foals, i know because i used to own him! He is 15.2hh and is in Wiltshire too.
ktj1891
Well-Known Member
Thank you for the explanation, I wasn't particularly looking to use an arab but it has been suggested as a possible good cross.