Sticky half pass

[Destario]

Any ideas? Great half pass to the left. Sticky to the right. Pretty sure it's me - unless right half pass is well known for being sticky. I think it might be my left leg, but trainer hasn't mentioned anything. Or I may be blocking somewhere, but I'm pretty sure I would have noticed.

Currently training pony up and he's got the gist but struggling to the right. Rode an advanced horse at the weekend and similar problem, stickier to the right. As pony had no flatwork when he came I've been working hard with him but thinking it might be a me problem... His rein back is spot on and loosens his back up nicely but still sticky to the right in half pass.

 

[itroteverywhere]

When you say 'sticky' do you mean that you are losing forward momentum, bend or both?

Is pony always stiffer with that bend? Does he/she traver just as easily on the left rein as on the right? Are you riding with the same angle back to the track on both reins? Are you using same amount of leg?

Could be that you aren't straight, especially given that the same thing happened when you rode another horse, but equally could just be a coincidence. Maybe get yourself booked in to see an osteo or take up pilates?

Am interested to hear other people's comments.

 

[Wheels]

what about travers & renvers?

I would go back to the travers in this case, rider body position is the key here and we are all a little one sided as are our horses so use the fence line to help align your body and practise until you feel everything is going well, take a mental picture of your position and then go back to the half pass. You could be blocking slightly with your hips in the wrong alignment or maybe blocking with one hand

 

[ossy]

My horse looses rhythm in the half pass if I go from centre to track on left rein but is ok to moving away from track on right rein not sure why. But my trainer gave me a good exercise where on left rein I leg yeild off track and half pass back to the track and I seem to be able to keep rhythm that way, trainer says it's because in the leg yeild the horse is already accepting of the right leg which is established in that position for leg yield, so when you put your left leg on its easier to establish bend to the right round your right leg and therefore more rhythmical half pass.

Not sure I've explained that well but hopefully you get what I mean.

 

[Destario]

I'm generally deadly straight when I ride. Always get comments on it pony doesn't have renvers yet. Does have a bit of travers but still work in progress (50/50 travers or canter) his right travers is better than his left, so adding to the confusion. Definitely asking properly, but obviously I'm teaching him from scratch.
He can get worked up and just gives you more forwards when working on laterals but so much better than he was. His leg yields are both spot on almost parallel, but could cross over more (being super picky). He loses bend and lateral movement and gets all sticky and I tend to just push him into my hand and go forwards to get the quality back. His shoulder in is fantastic. He totally understands it and really sits on his quarters. He finds it easier to the left but it's still excellent to the right.

I'll have to check my seatbones tomorrow - I might be weighting the left instead of the right? I have a soft tissue therapist and a physio as I have a hyper mobile spine and I'm very flexible so try to keep on top of everything. My right adductor is tighter than usual at the moment but my left hp is fine. Hmmm. It could be a hand but I haven't noticed... Doesn't mean it isn't!

I do lots of zigzag with him leg yield to si to half pass to travers etc. To make sure he's on the ball with the aids. It's very confusing. Maybe he doesn't understand so well to the right yet. He does get very worked up sometimes when he doesn't get what you want and welshes out on my with big neck setting and just gives faster,but he just seems to end up stuck in not quite hp spring mode...

 

[milliepops]

Mine took a bit longer to crack travers to the right than left, and consequently the right half pass has been slower to improve than the left. They are often one sided so it's not a surprise that he finds one way more tricky.

From what you've said I'd spend more time in travers, you can go large round the school in travers until he really softens, accepts and gets it. If you ride HP after HP you are always running out of space, whereas if you travers large around the school you can go for as long as you need to.

Then I'd work on keeping the forwards-sideways impulse in your leg yield (I'd allow him to lead with the shoulders slightly to keep the forwardness for a little while) and then put the 2 together again and go for the half pass. Be patient - the travers is key IME because it's essentially the same movement as HP, so crack that and you'll find the rest comes much more easily.

 

[ossy]

Just picking up on a couple of comments you made above, I always teach mine traver first before half pass so I think in your situation I'd get those established a bit more first then go back to half pass

 

[Matafleur]

As above really, travers, travers, travers. Mine can get a little set in the neck so if I'm losing the forward or anything else actually then I move the neck a little, often changing the bend and leg yielding half way through the movement. Don't just stay in the hp if it isn't happening, change something a bit to help your horse.

I struggle with keeping enough bend as I am too obsessed with sideways so a good exercise for me is hp and then leg yield keeping the same bend, so hp left into ly right. That was an Anna Ross tip that I've found really helpful.

 

[Destario]

Thanks. We've got a 70m school so not too much of a space problem. We never lose impulsion I'd say, more it gets all coiled up and he goes stiff in the neck and rushes out of the nice trot! Doing more travers work for sure, I try not to do too much in one go as he has a tendency to keep his quarters in travers when I'm not asking so only really do short bits, I'll try for some longer.
He's a sweetheart and tries his heart out but does panic and charge on with forwards and faster is the answer when he gets confused. I might try a bit in canter and see if that helps. Canter is his most favourite thing next to jumping. We tend to think everything means canter but we get more elevation afterwards in the trot. Might be worth a shot. As he can't canter instead of travers if he's already cantering! Haha. He's on dressage schooling tomorrow so I'll update on how I'd all goes.

The left hp isn't amazing as he's only just got the hang of it, but I've been trying really hard not to focus too much on sideways parallel as that's a bit too tricky! The hp to ly in the same diagonal line is a good one, might help work out where it's going wrong if he doesn't ly so well after the hp - definitely a rider error somewhere if so. Can't wait to get him out and about first unaff novice of the year end of Jan then he'll go to an affiliated, hopefully some good scores! He's got to do a medium test in April at camp so plenty to work towards, just need this half pass sorting (oh and the dodgy simple changes - canter to jog right? and the weird flying changes - what pony changes behind but not in front?!)

 

[Destario]

Well today was awful. Started off badly with a menace trying to get to the arena so had to lead him. Warmed up nicely if a little inattentive. Then started hanging and tanking about but nothing major. Asked for a walk to canter got a nice transition followed by a micro buck but the saddle slipped forwards and this caused panic broncing 'sigh' head stuck between knees and saddle slipping further and further forward. Just as I decided to attempt a hop off we spooked at the poop scoop and my 'dismount' turned into a fall on my arse. Poor boy came over for a hug. Sorted the saddle out but he was not in the mood. Had a couple more mini broncs but nothing major and re did the saddle. Got some very good medium trot but he was not with me in the arena. First time under saddle with new clip coupled with being in for a few days I think. Silly boy. However before the upset (and my now slightly bruised arse) we got some OK half pass. Absolutely no travers though. Just not playing ball at all today. Was like sitting on a very springy piece of wood! Chucked a rug on him and shoved them both out in the field. Mare has been confined for a few days inside because she banged her leg. Nothing serious but didn't want her making it worse in the field so they've been in. I shall put it down to hijinks, new clip, a couple of days off, and lack of turnout. Fingers crossed tomorrow goes better. They were both abysmal today and had to lunge mare before riding as she lost the plot yesterday and I had to get off and lunge. Doesn't help my anaemia is playing up so my energy is non existent!

Tomorrow schooling will be better I hope. He completely ignored my request for travers so I'm going to try and go back to basic this is travers please and hope it sticks! Less sticky with the one hp each way I got - remembered to look up and where I was going!

 

[charlie76]

I did the leg yield in, half pass out exercise with mine yesterday and it worked a treat. Mine looses forwardness in the right half pass too.

 

[charlie76]

Well today was awful. Started off badly with a menace trying to get to the arena so had to lead him. Warmed up nicely if a little inattentive. Then started hanging and tanking about but nothing major. Asked for a walk to canter got a nice transition followed by a micro buck but the saddle slipped forwards and this caused panic broncing 'sigh' head stuck between knees and saddle slipping further and further forward. Just as I decided to attempt a hop off we spooked at the poop scoop and my 'dismount' turned into a fall on my arse. Poor boy came over for a hug. Sorted the saddle out but he was not in the mood. Had a couple more mini broncs but nothing major and re did the saddle. Got some very good medium trot but he was not with me in the arena. First time under saddle with new clip coupled with being in for a few days I think. Silly boy. However before the upset (and my now slightly bruised arse) we got some OK half pass. Absolutely no travers though. Just not playing ball at all today. Was like sitting on a very springy piece of wood! Chucked a rug on him and shoved them both out in the field. Mare has been confined for a few days inside because she banged her leg. Nothing serious but didn't want her making it worse in the field so they've been in. I shall put it down to hijinks, new clip, a couple of days off, and lack of turnout. Fingers crossed tomorrow goes better. They were both abysmal today and had to lunge mare before riding as she lost the plot yesterday and I had to get off and lunge. Doesn't help my anaemia is playing up so my energy is non existent!

Tomorrow schooling will be better I hope. He completely ignored my request for travers so I'm going to try and go back to basic this is travers please and hope it sticks! Less sticky with the one hp each way I got - remembered to look up and where I was going!

This and the changing behind and not in front sounds like he might have a pain related issue going on . I would have him checked out.

 

[Destario]

He's got weak glutes and stifle. Getting stronger with targeted work and get regular physio to help. Pretty sure the changing behind problem is his balance and collection in canter. As soon as you ask he loses the plot and charges forwards with a lovely plank of neck and head but has changed behind. Not certain he's got the idea yet! Canter is very exciting for him and it's hard to keep him from boiling over and getting confused. The canter to walk for eg is always canter to jog at the minute. He was so sharp on Tuesday that there wasn't much I could do with him. He probably needed a canter hack but the fields were very wet. I've been looking for a shorter girth too but saddle hasn't slipped before so look out more urgent now!

 

[milliepops]

I'm a little bit puzzled as to why you want to work on this kind of stuff (changes and half pass) when you know he is weak and when it doesn't sounds like the basic canter work is established or accepted enough? I'm not one for doing endless boring circles, they can always play with more advanced work as part of their general repertoire IMO but it needs to be in a constructive way.

From everything you've said I'd want to make the canter much more rideable by playing with working between straight/shoudler fore/travers/etc and get that all really calmly accepted and easily changeable with good transitions before charging on with half pass and changes Those will be easy to achieve when you get the essentials sorted and the basic work will help to make him stronger - strong enough to deliver the more advanced exercises easily.

 

[Destario]

His canter is rideable. It's balanced and we've got medium and collected as well and can transition in and out of them. He's got shoulder in in all three paces (loves his shoulder in) and his basic laterals are all good. He's even got good walk piris and a fabulous rein back.

The issue with the travers is the similarity in the aids to canter and when he gets confused he tends to give canter and go faster. I've been retraining him since he arrived and his canter aids still cover a larger area than I'd like and he often pre-empts them when we've been doing lots of transitions. His transitions are all spot on except the canter to walk (hence being worked on) and the flying changes are really asked very rarely but same issue as the travers, he feels the outside leg move and gives a change behind before I've actually asked for the change. I don't ask in the school anymore but we do get them on hacks sometimes when doing canter work and I ask round a corner. He really loves he's canter and can over boil a bit. He came from children and showjumping so canter is obviously the most exciting thing in the world!

Travers and half pass are next for him to learn and should help with building glutes up and with lateral flexion through the spine. It also gets him stepping through from behind and working over his back. He's very clever and although we don't just do trotting round in circles, he's pretty much there with everything he's learned so far so why not ask once or twice a week for something harder? He's exercised 5/6 times a week with a hack or two as well as an easy school session (running through a test a couple of times to check fluency) and a lunge over poles to build his muscles. He's 9 and we do easier things if he gets upset. So when we had our saddle slip problem and he got worked up we went back to medium trot and canter which he finds easy and relaxing and some walk piris before walking off.

 

[milliepops]

OK, well we can only go on what you've said, and from the bits I've quoted below it doesn't sound like you have the quiet acceptance of the easier work which you will *need* to be able to produce quality HP or changes.

I don't think the aids for canter are the same as the aids for travers, I give a canter aid with my inside seatbone and outside leg, whereas when I want to travers I ride the horse from the inside leg to the outside hand, add as much bend as appropriate for the stage of training and a little outside leg, sitting to the inside. It's totally different so I fail to see how other than as an honest mistake at the start, he would be getting confused by the aids for travers *unless you are confusing him* in which case neither of you are ready for this. It's the identical aid for HP so once again, it all comes back to the travers for me.

I will bow out at this point as it seems like you aren't getting the answers you want to hear.

Canter is very exciting for him and it's hard to keep him from boiling over and getting confused. The canter to walk for eg is always canter to jog at the minute. He was so sharp on Tuesday that there wasn't much I could do with him.

Asked for a walk to canter got a nice transition followed by a micro buck but the saddle slipped forwards and this caused panic broncing 'sigh' head stuck between knees and saddle slipping further and further forward. [...]Absolutely no travers though. Just not playing ball at all today. Was like sitting on a very springy piece of wood!

He can get worked up and just gives you more forwards when working on laterals but so much better than he was. His leg yields are both spot on almost parallel, but could cross over more (being super picky). He loses bend and lateral movement and gets all sticky and I tend to just push him into my hand and go forwards to get the quality back. [...]He does get very worked up sometimes when he doesn't get what you want and welshes out on my with big neck setting and just gives faster,but he just seems to end up stuck in not quite hp spring mode...

 

[Destario]

Our canter aid is inside leg with a supporting outside leg. The outside to support and indicate canter will be coming and the inside leg to state when.
He's relaxed and engaged but easily boils over if confused (which he is definitely getting with the travers). His original canter aids where pretty much wherever on him from trot so he's come on lots. The shoulder in works well but the travel confuses him and when he gets confused he gives faster - either to evade or because that's what he thinks you want. He's light and relaxed in the hand but he is sharp. He would probably give me renvers if I asked simply because he can get slightly crooked but I'd rather get travers sorted to help with lateral submission and straightness. The outside leg needed to get some of the quarter in from the travers is what gets him. We don't have an arena fence so the outside leg and hand and the inside leg have to do everything. I can't just push him into the fence to help him move. He gives travers sometimes but it hasn't settled in his mind yet that travers is a thing.
I'm happy for constructive crit and ideas on exercises to work on. If I was on the ground or had mirrors I'd probably be able to see some of the issues that make him somewhat sticky with the travers and half pass. His acceptance of leg yield and shoulder in are what prompted the next stage of training, he just hasn't quite grasped the whole of the concept.

All horses need to work on their relaxation and acceptance no matter what stage they are at, but I only ask for the more advanced movements when he is fully with me, focused, and relaxed. The stickiness is frustrating especially considering how much work has been done to get him sat on his hocks and responding correctly to aids.

I know the way I'm asking is correct as I visited my trainer yesterday for a play on one of her horses and we got what we wanted instantly after a vague disagreement about not wanting to flex left. The problem with green and baby horses is that you don't have an advanced one to ride to keep you from second guessing! She suggested rein back before travers as it loosens the back up so I'll try that tomorrow. She thought it could be lateral tension so he's blocking himself if that makes sense by getting tight and solid behind the saddle. I've also booked his physio to come out and check him over.

I really appreciate the thoughts everyone has given so far. All interesting and definitely going to use the hp leg yield exercise. He's Welsh so can go from soft and relaxed to tight and sticky in the blink of an eye.

 

[Destario]

Oh and changes - we are working on simple changes. Currently working on canter to walk transitions. The walk to canters help his glutes and stifle as well as the quality of his canter but he doesn't get one of those until the canter to walk is good and a solid walk created. Canter to walk definitely needs work but he's getting there. We're not actively working on flying changes as he is definitely not there yet (though he supposedly had them hence trying them a few times) so the only times he gets one is if he does one all by himself when we are jumping or in the canter field round one turn where I'll encourage a change but won't actively ask.

 

[amandaco2]

id agree to work on the travers.
I find swapping from the half pass to shoulder in helps and going into a medium after the half pass keeps them thinking forwards.

 

[Destario]

That's a good idea. I usually go from shoulder in to half pass, hadn't thought of going back to shoulder in. He loves his medium trot so that should definitely help keep him thinking forwards. Thank you

 

[Hallo2012]

i personally dont work on travers too much as i do find it can encourage a wiggly horse to push the bum in at any opportunity..........so i use renvers a lot more and i wont start HP until renvers is established as it really does set the horse up in lovely inside bend around your leg and correctly understanding your outside aids.

in a more established horse i do use travers more as suppling and strengthening but for HP prep find renvers more useful.