Stopping to poo in a test

I'm with MP on this one. I dont want poo spraying right across my arena when a pile left in one place can be easily avoided until I'm ready to get off and clear it.

If they spray it around, you then either have to get off to clear it straight away , (which is an even worse message to give them, poo and I'll get off), avoid a huge area of the arena, or grind it into the surface. All bad options, imo.

I understand Red's point but I haven't found it any problem to keep the 'go means go' command separate from the 'stop and do one pile right here' command and if I told my horses to move when they were pooing, they would.

I'm really struggling to remember a horse ever pooping in a dressage test, though. They've usually left it in the lorry, in vast quantities!

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bouncing_ball said:
Yes but if he was truly in front of your leg he’d keep trotting. As your aid would take precedence.
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To add, my horses are allowed / encouraged to stop in the home arena for easy collection. They arent allowed to stop out hacking or in a test environment / or in a warm up environment. They seem to understand the difference.
 
ycbm said:
I'm with MP on this one. I dont want poo spraying right across my arena when a pile left in one place can be easily avoided until I'm ready to get off and clear it.

If they spray it around, you then either have to get off to clear it straight away , (which is an even worse message to give them, poo and I'll get off), avoid a huge area of the arena, or grind it into the surface. All bad options, imo.

I understand Red's point but I haven't found it any problem to keep the 'go means go' command separate from the 'stop and do one pile right here' command and if I told my horses to move when they were pooing, they would.

I'm really struggling to remember a horse ever pooping in a dressage test, though. They've usually left it in the lorry, in vast quantities!

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Ah, I said my horse is not allowed to stop to poo, ever, and that is correct. However, I am allowed to tell them to stop when I want, so if the arena is a hire one or if mine is freshly harrowed, I do sometimes TELL them to stop so it is easy to collect.

If that meant they started to make a unilateral decision to simply stop than they would be corrected, as they would be initially corrected to go, and if the go did not work then that would mean they went forward very positively.
 
Red-1 said:
Ah, I said my horse is not allowed to stop to poo, ever, and that is correct. However, I am allowed to tell them to stop when I want, so if the arena is a hire one or if mine is freshly harrowed, I do sometimes TELL them to stop so it is easy to collect.

If that meant they started to make a unilateral decision to simply stop than they would be corrected, as they would be initially corrected to go, and if the go did not work then that would mean they went forward very positively.
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That suits you, a very experienced rider/ trainer, your horses and has obviously never caused an issue with tension, the OP has a pony that is showing signs of tension, has gut issues that may be contributing to the tension or causing the pony to need to go more frequently than normal so I feel she needs to work towards finding a solution rather than insisting he keeps moving and possibly creates a more serious issue.
I know mine will keep going but from having one that really struggled mentally for most of his working life I have a bit more flexibility when I am working with them, I cannot think when one had to go during a test but have had a few go immediately they finish and leave the arena having held on until they are on a long rein walking out.
 
be positive said:
That suits you, a very experienced rider/ trainer, your horses and has obviously never caused an issue with tension, the OP has a pony that is showing signs of tension, has gut issues that may be contributing to the tension or causing the pony to need to go more frequently than normal so I feel she needs to work towards finding a solution rather than insisting he keeps moving and possibly creates a more serious issue.
I know mine will keep going but from having one that really struggled mentally for most of his working life I have a bit more flexibility when I am working with them, I cannot think when one had to go during a test but have had a few go immediately they finish and leave the arena having held on until they are on a long rein walking out.
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This post struck a chord with me because I also have one that's always on a mental tightrope and I allow her to choose to stop.
I don't generally allow her to choose other things but this is something I have always let pass. It's a small thing to keep the equilibrium in the right place. The effect on me is minimal (i can remember 2 occasions in 5 years of regular competition when I've had to take a bad score on a movement because she needed a poo ;))
I think BP is right and this isn't just a case of a rude pony ignoring the rider, something deeper appears to be going on and probably when that is addressed it will become a non-issue as it does for many horses.
 
OP I am assuming he also stops to poo on hacks and when schooling and jumping? I would attack the problem under these circumstances too- dont let him stop, back your leg up with a whip if necessary. Then when he has moved on stop him, relax and allow him to poo. So he is doing it on your terms not his.
 
My issue is that using my leg , while it has the desired effect of moving him forwards, also has the effect of stopping him pooing. As mentioned in my OP he then just tries again, but never poos in trot and doesn't seem to learn.
 
stormox said:
OP I am assuming he also stops to poo on hacks and when schooling and jumping? I would attack the problem under these circumstances too- dont let him stop, back your leg up with a whip if necessary. Then when he has moved on stop him, relax and allow him to poo. So he is doing it on your terms not his.
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He doesn't understand the concept of his feet leaving the ground so we don't jump. Hacking and schooling he will poo in walk but as above just doesn't seem to understand the concept of pooing at a faster pace.
 
Use the same tactics if he slows from a trot to a walk to poo. Keep him trotting then stop on your terms. Especially out hacking.
Maybe try a bit of jumping, it usually get them thinking more forward, even if just over little logs and stuff when you are out.
It seems this mhorse is backward thinking and needs to get enjoying his work more. Have you tried a bit of baby xc? Maybe in a pairs class with more experienced horse, this is a good way to get them thinking forward and in front of the leg.
 
He's not backwards thinking at all and really enjoys his schooling as it keeps his pony brain busy.

I also don't think he's pooing more because he's tense. When he's tense he has a tendency to rush and will nap. On Saturday he was nice and relaxed. I Do think he just poops more often than some horses as it's his natural cycle.
In the summer I seperate my horses as my mare needs restricting and she does fewer poos than him, but they are much bigger so I just think that's his natural bodily functions.
 
JulesRules said:
He's not backwards thinking at all
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I agree with others that he is not clearly off your leg though. If he was he would neither stop to poo when you don't tell him to nor nap. I think you are overthinking. This is a simple obedience issue. He has particular times when he feels able to ignore your forwards aids. I would work on that if I were you.
 
JulesRules said:
So my issue is less that he won't go off my leg, and more that as soon as he does he refrains from pooing, but only for a moment and then he tries again so he'll either poo or trot but not together.
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I dont think his reaction to your aids is the right one. If he is truly reacting correctly to your leg, when he is asked to trot he should stay in trot until you ask for a transition up or down. Yours stops, which he shouldnt do unless asked. It seems to me you have closed uour mind to any of the sensible suggestions on here that are trying to help you.
 
JulesRules said:
He doesn't understand the concept of his feet leaving the ground so we don't jump. Hacking and schooling he will poo in walk but as above just doesn't seem to understand the concept of pooing at a faster pace.
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I wonder if working over trotting poles on the ground would help him figure it out. As needing to think about where he puts his feet, might break the habit pattern.
 
be positive said:
That suits you, a very experienced rider/ trainer, your horses and has obviously never caused an issue with tension, the OP has a pony that is showing signs of tension, has gut issues that may be contributing to the tension or causing the pony to need to go more frequently than normal so I feel she needs to work towards finding a solution rather than insisting he keeps moving and possibly creates a more serious issue.
I know mine will keep going but from having one that really struggled mentally for most of his working life I have a bit more flexibility when I am working with them, I cannot think when one had to go during a test but have had a few go immediately they finish and leave the arena having held on until they are on a long rein walking out.
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JulesRules said:
He's not backwards thinking at all and really enjoys his schooling as it keeps his pony brain busy.

I also don't think he's pooing more because he's tense. When he's tense he has a tendency to rush and will nap. On Saturday he was nice and relaxed. I Do think he just poops more often than some horses as it's his natural cycle.
In the summer I seperate my horses as my mare needs restricting and she does fewer poos than him, but they are much bigger so I just think that's his natural bodily functions.
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Of course, if the horse is thought to be uncomfortable from a veterinary point of view, then this would need addressing with the vet, as I believe you have with ulcers.

I am speaking from the perspective of knowing how quickly you can train a horse to do something that you never intended. For example, we had a lovely, thickset, Police Horse who trained up nicely and became suitable for the less experienced rider to go out and learn their job on.

Sadly, he got a rider who really wanted to be 'nice' to him, and because we were sometimes out for many hours, he decided to let the horse have a little graze where suitable.

Sadly, said thick-set horse soon got the message that the rider would 'let' him eat, and started to drag the rider to grass when he saw it and was hungry. It remained unknown to me, until it was bad enough that the dratted horse was dragging people into bushes for a snack, he was setting hs neck and doing... what he wanted.

It took some correction, as the horse really thought he was entitled to stop and eat when he wanted. He was a strong so and so, and it took a change of rider as the rider who had unintentionally initiated the issue was not able to sort it out. Not the horse's fault at all, he was merely doing what he thought he was entitled to.

I do have experience, but have suddenly become old, creaky and less effective. I have curtailed my plans somewhat to no longer work professionally with horses in any capacity, and have a nice young mare that is half ID just to have fun on. I have to laugh at myself at some stuff that I have unintentionally taught her, and she has learned very quickly.

1. Getting up in the morning. I liked to have a morning cuddle, would fuss her. Initially she did not like it and would get up, but as time has gone on she started to raise that cuddles in bed were nice. So far so good. Then I took a couple of videos where I 'pretended' to try to get her up. Then I thought it was sweet when she would groan and lie fast in the bed. Yeah, now I actually have a PROBLEM! She steadfastly refuses to get up if it is early. I have had to be a bit sharp with her, I feel bad about this as it is my fault, but there we are, no one is perfect and I do need to turn her out before work and I don't suppose my boss would accept the excuse that the horse was not ready to get up for my lateness! The horse is in fine health. She is just doing what I unintentionally let her think she was allowed to do.

2. Old habits die hard. I like to teach them to wee on command. I like her to have a wee before getting on the box. I therefore practiced whistling until she wees on a regular basis, every day in the stable before she comes out. She has got quite good at this, will take the pose and squeeze one out on a whistle. I have been very patient. Only... somedays, she is not keen to go outside. When it is raining or cold or windy or I am early, she kind of refuses to leave the stable, a habit I did not initially notice as she also 'took the position' and would look like she was going to wee. It has become a right old time waster in the morning! No, I think she is in perfect health. That one has not taken much correcting at all, she has opportunity to wee, if she does not I ask her forward again, and on second time of asking she has to come.

I had to laugh at myself, my morning routine made slow by firstly being unable to get the horse up, then not being able to propel her out of the stable!



So, what I am saying is that it is very easy to teach them an unintentional thing and, sadly, if it becomes ingrained, it can actually be quite hard to unteach it. OP did say that the horse was relaxed at the competition, and also that this is a daily struggle, not just when the horse is nervous at the competition. Therefore, I have presumed that this is an unintentionally taught thing, that it is OK to stop, whenever, to poo.
 
I can see this from both sides! My horse is 6 and although outwardly calm Im pretty sure he feels some tension/nerves/whatever in a dressage test. He used to stop to poo indoors far more frequently than he does now... often not even producing anything. :rolleyes: Maybe it should be a gradual "learning" process? No stopping to poo while schooling or hacking? Do what you have to do to keep the horse moving, even if thats circles on the spot. They are, after all, creatures of habit. Mine will now poo on the move while jumping or when hes revved up while hacking but still insists on stopping to do it during the first couple of miles. When I had just backed him he used to stop much more often and frequently didnt produce any poo for the first couple of stops. But atm I know that its better to sacrifice marks for one movement (poo stop) and have a relaxed and more co-operative horse for the rest of the test. Its probably not a totally consistent approach but seems to be slowly achieving the goal.
 
We now teach the horses to pee under saddle, after losing a hunter class at Royal Windsor because the horse was desperate to pee and never would until back on the lorry, we learnt the hard way. Our routine now is off the lorry, 15 minute wander/trot and then over to a grassy spot for a pee and a little treat for weeing, followed by being got ready for whatever class they are doing and proper warm up.

The feral carthorse picked up the training very quickly and almost immediately used it against us. He will do his 10 minutes and then stop and stretch out wherever he is, grass or not, but not do a wee. He simply stands there stretched out, and watches the world go by. Out hacking he has set wee spots on each route and will always produce a huge wee, there is no doubt his bladder is a vast vessel ! We have had to be diplomatic in dealing with his 'naughtiness/intelligence' in the wee department. As a baby he would hold himself until he was uncomfortable and very anxious, not great given his huge anxiety levels about life in general.

We dealt with it by not allowing him to ask to stop and by us stopping him and removing him to grass. No random stopping allowed, planned stops acceptable and weeing must commence quickly. Sight seeing not allowed !
 
AdorableAlice said:
We now teach the horses to pee under saddle, after losing a hunter class at Royal Windsor because the horse was desperate to pee and never would until back on the lorry, we learnt the hard way. Our routine now is off the lorry, 15 minute wander/trot and then over to a grassy spot for a pee and a little treat for weeing, followed by being got ready for whatever class they are doing and proper warm up.

The feral carthorse picked up the training very quickly and almost immediately used it against us. He will do his 10 minutes and then stop and stretch out wherever he is, grass or not, but not do a wee. He simply stands there stretched out, and watches the world go by. Out hacking he has set wee spots on each route and will always produce a huge wee, there is no doubt his bladder is a vast vessel ! We have had to be diplomatic in dealing with his 'naughtiness/intelligence' in the wee department. As a baby he would hold himself until he was uncomfortable and very anxious, not great given his huge anxiety levels about life in general.

We dealt with it by not allowing him to ask to stop and by us stopping him and removing him to grass. No random stopping allowed, planned stops acceptable and weeing must commence quickly. Sight seeing not allowed !
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My friend's cob stops to wee as soon as he goes into the school. 99% of the time it's to avoid working but he also seems to be a bit shy so even on the 1% of times he needs a wee he'll stop 5 or 6 times before he actually wees. You know when it's real as his tail starts swishing. If he doesn't swish his tail within a few seconds of stopping, he gets moved on pretty quickly. Luckily he hasn't learned the link between no tail swishing and being moved on or he'd fake that too!
 
I think you can train them to not poo / only poo on the move, certainly daughter's pony got booted on and gave up trying to stop. Current horse in 7 years of ownership has never ever pooed in any arena, admittedly does several bowel evacuations as soon as she thinks she is going somewhere. Causes grief in shared arenas though, when people insist it is your horse that's done a poo not yours in a 'I'll leave you to pick up your horse's poo' as they exit the arena and refuse to believe it's theirs.
 
I've love to teach my horse to wee into a bucket to help keep his bed drier (and help his feet). Any tips? Or step by step guide? He's highly treat cube motivated, but not to keen on me moving to whip a bucket under him whilst he's weeing.
 
bouncing_ball said:
I've love to teach my horse to wee into a bucket to help keep his bed drier (and help his feet). Any tips? Or step by step guide? He's highly treat cube motivated, but not to keen on me moving to whip a bucket under him whilst he's weeing.
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I don't think this is a good idea; it can cause problems because horse doesn't wee when it needs to if no one is around with a bucket.
 
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