Strange behaviour, vet stumped

[AWinter]

Just throwing this out into the forum in the hopes someone has come across this before.

12yo gelding, very well in himself, eating/drinking/droppings/urinating all normal and fine.

I keep catching him standing very camped out as if he is going to urinate, he will stay there for maybe 30 seconds then just walk off and go back to normal, doesn’t look to be straining and doesn’t drop. He can also occasionally get a bit tail swishy and stampy and drop his penis but this isn’t as often and may be unrelated. I initially thought he was colicing and we had the emergency vet but now we really don’t think this is the case.

He has had his sheath looked at under sedation and the vet could find nothing, all clean and normal no swelling, no beans, nothing, have taken a swab that came back normal but he just doesn’t strike me as itchy and irritated (which he is in the summer with his sheath). I am going to get a urine sample just to check.

Had bloods run and the only thing that was thrown up was raised livery enzymes, so they came back and ran a full liver panel on both of my horses as they have lived together and eaten the same forage etc. Just got results back and they both have very similar slightly elevated AST and bile acids, plasma fib is within normal range. They are now on a liver tonic to retest in a month.

Vet said this is likely showing a historical cause either viral or mycotoxins from forage, the yard they were on previously to November kept getting awful mouldy hay so I’m assuming/hoping this is the cause. They have both been through a lot of stress and 2 yard moves in a short space of time, the latest one being 3 weeks ago.

I also strongly query if this is new behaviour or it just hasn’t been noted as they were on full livery up until 3 weeks ago and it’s so brief and non-distressed you wouldn’t really notice it if you weren’t paying attention. I do recall a fellow livery telling me he was standing camped out in the autumn but I assumed that was related to his sore feet at the time. Just a bit of a puzzle I’m trying to piece together. Sorry it’s a bit disjointed there are many parts to it.

I have shown the video of the behaviour to my physio and she did query if he’s trying to relieve some sort of musculoskeletal/postural discomfort as he has ongoing issues with hoof balance and tension. Happy to PM anyone the video don’t really want to post him on an open forum.

 

[Mudfukkle]

I had this with one of mine. He had a recurring Herpes virus and did this when he was under the weather or in discomfort. Like you, I thought it was colic, the vet even did a peritoneal tap to check for peritonitis, but it was all clear.
Nothing could be done, just some pain killers when he was going through a bad patch.
I would definitely treat the liver problem going on with yours, and then it may resolve, fingers crossed. I hope your boy is better soon.

 

[Squeak]

I've known a horse with ulcers do this, which could fit if they've had a lot of stress recently.

 

[meleeka]

Don’t discount low grade colic, the definition of colic being abdominal pain. I’d treat the liver issue first then reassess too.

 

[Melody Grey]

Mine did this when he had a virus. It had looked colicky to begin with, though still eating and drinking pretty normally.

 

[AWinter]

So update, I’ve just spoken to a livery from my old yard who saw him doing this back in October, so this is not new at all. She told me at the time, I had the vet straight out it was when his feet were really sore on the track system so I just assumed it was to do with that and I never saw the behaviour myself.

I’m wondering if he’s just been struggling for a long time, they have been through a lot this year. Have spoken to the vet about ulcers and it is a road I will go down if things don’t resolve.

 

[Goldenstar]

You to treat what you know you have got, that’s horses with stressed livers
You need to find extra good extra clean forage and simple diet for them
You need to consider if they have grazed something in the paddock that they would not normally eat because grass is short atm. Check the paddock .
It’s likely that won’t find to cause but it’s worth a look.
Yes the horse might have ulcers, low grade colic All sorts of things but you know what the blood work tells you deal with that first .

 

[AWinter]

You to treat what you know you have got, that’s horses with stressed livers
You need to find extra good extra clean forage and simple diet for them
You need to consider if they have grazed something in the paddock that they would not normally eat because grass is short atm. Check the paddock .
It’s likely that won’t find to cause but it’s worth a look.
Yes the horse might have ulcers, low grade colic All sorts of things but you know what the blood work tells you deal with that first .

They were on a grass free track system with wrapped hay that I expressed concern about several times due to the mould in most of the bales so I think this is the cause of the liver issues, they haven’t been on any paddock with grazing until the last few weeks which the vet says is too recent given their blood results and that his symptoms started before this. They were not in a good state when I moved them from that yard, very sore feet and I assume now liver issues I didn’t know about.

They are on a simple, clean diet with good quality, not mouldy, tested hay now. Thanks

 

[Goldenstar]

They should fully recover given time

 

[Fransurrey]

Camping out but not urinating is also a classic PSSM symptom. It's one that prompted me to test my gelding. I had a blood test done on him a month or so before PSSM1 testing and he also had slightly raised AST.

 

[Muddy unicorn]

My retiree did this last summer for a couple of days - in his case it seemed to be something like a transient UTI probably caused by not drinking enough in a sudden burst of hot weather. After a couple of days he was absolutely fine and it hasn’t happened again

 

[poiuytrewq]

We had one at work that used to do the exact same.
No one else was particularly bothered but it used to worry me. He did it worst after coming back in from being exercised and I was on the yard most so I guess I saw it more.
I put it down to slight colicky ness at the time and he did go on to colic later after he’d left the yard.
I always wondered if it had been looked into more early on if that could have been avoided

 

[nutjob]

My horse with liver problems used to stand in that type of stance. He would also put his head between his front legs and shake it like he had something in his ears. It stopped when the liver recovered so hopefully yours will too.

 

[AWinter]

My horse with liver problems used to stand in that type of stance. He would also put his head between his front legs and shake it like he had something in his ears. It stopped when the liver recovered so hopefully yours will too.

It’s great to hear this, thanks. Spoken to a couple of very experienced bodyworker friends and they have mentioned a link between liver issues and visceral pain.

 

[Maxidoodle]

You’ve had a lot of really good replies. I just wanted to add my own experience just in case. My mare frequently stood camped out when I first got her, it turned out it was due to really bad mud fever, she’d obviously found that position gave her some sort of relief. As soon as the mud fever was sorted, it stopped and she’s never done it in the 4yrs since.

 

[PurBee]

They were on a grass free track system with wrapped hay that I expressed concern about several times due to the mould in most of the bales so I think this is the cause of the liver issues, they haven’t been on any paddock with grazing until the last few weeks which the vet says is too recent given their blood results and that his symptoms started before this. They were not in a good state when I moved them from that yard, very sore feet and I assume now liver issues I didn’t know about.

They are on a simple, clean diet with good quality, not mouldy, tested hay now. Thanks

I found the same with mine time and time again - musty or mouldy hay = sore feet, low-grade lami/abscesses
Even if i soaked the hay that had a musty smell with no visual mould, there’s still lingering spores they’re eating, the gut gets disturbed, immune system inflammation, which shows in the feet.

Clean, spore-free, well-made haylage diet since = great feet.
Eating lush grass - great feet. (I thought for ages it was the sugar in the grass causing lami, as the ‘online dictum’ declares often - but if theyre on grass AND musty hay, it’s the hay causing the inflammation issue, not sugars in grass. As soon as i switched to clean well-made haylage, they were fine on all lush and sparse grass paddocks. It took years to finally understand this was at play as the hay wasnt ‘terrible’ just musty and washed well/soaked…as im picky about hay anyway!)

Moulds are THE nemesis of a horses diet, and we have to do all we can to reduce/eliminate them, their overall health is sullied by moulds.

Good call for getting the liver results and are treating that.

With your horse, i’d take the cue from his stance and wonder about bladder infection/kidney infection. If his behaviour is to take moments to stand like he’s going to pee, but doesn’t - it makes me wonder if he feels the need to pee, but nothing happens? Like when we have a bladder infection, we get the urge to go, and attempt to go, but nothing comes out. A urine sample test could help.
Have you managed to see him pee close-up? Does it look slightly pink initially suggesting infection?

Cranberry pure juice (not supermarket pasteurised £1.20 ‘cranberry juice’, water, sugar and a bit of cranberry - health store pure squeezed cranberry juice £12/litre) - is excellent for bladder issues, as it makes the wall of the bladder slippery, stopping bacteria from sticking and irritating it, helping it to be expelled. Its well-known in the human world for bladder infection issues, and from equine educational sources online, is safe for horses to consume at reasonable doses.
Added to soaked beet, maybe 200ml, should be a good daily dose - i wouldnt give 1 litre all at once, its quite bitter than sweet, when pure as a juice unsweetened, but horses tend to like bitter stuff so likely no issue feeding it!

I’ve used cranberry juice with a very painful UTI years ago and it worked very quickly, within 24hrs, relieving painful urinating. Cleared up the infection within days - i had 250ml roughly daily) I was going to go get antibiotics if it didnt shift, but didnt need to after starting the juice.

Human studies show it to inhibit e-coli sticking to bladder walls and lessen inflammation (e-coli is a common urinary/kidney bacteria causing infections - could be found in soils/hay, and also growing out of control in the gut that naturally has a small population of e-coli. If equine gut health is compromised due to mouldy hay, there’s the potential for the natural e-coli gut bacteria to over grow causing issues. Aswell as short paddock grazing close to the soil can introduce more soil bacteria into the gut. Maybe your yard changes, he’s picked up a bacteria)

I could only find this mention of study on horses with cranberry doing a quick google search:

“We’ve conducted research on cranberry extract here at the Equine Exercise Physiology laboratory. A single dose of the cranberry extract had no effect on oxidative stress and antioxidant status in exercising horses, which was disappointing. What’s exciting though, is the extract’s effects on markers of inflammation. Lower concentrations of TNF-α were found in horses who had been fed the cranberry extract. TNF-α is a cytokine produced by the body during acute inflammation and thus, lower concentrations indicate a blunted inflammatory response in the body. Pretty cool, huh?”

Cranberries: More than a Sweet Treat? | Equine Science Center

esc.rutgers.edu

The above results on inflammation was after just one dose, so i am impressed to read that. They weren’t testing for bladder infection, more for the antioxidant effect as cranberry is sold often as a supplement powder for antioxidant properties for horses. The anti inflammation info is interesting and supports human studies too.

p.s - if you give pure cranberry juice their pee may turn a light pinky colour, and thats normal.
Light Pink urine usually means kidney/bladder irritation bleeding without cranberry juice, hence why i asked if you’d seen that.

If it is a bacterial kidney/bladder infection, and if you go down the antibiotics route, its a good idea to support the gut with pre and probiotics while he’s on them to aid the growth of beneficial bacteria which will be killed-off with the anti-b’s. Definitely continue after the round of anti-b’s with pre and probiotics to help repopulate the gut bacteria with beneficial friendly bacteria.

Fingers crossed its an easy fix whatever it turns out to be. Horses can only tell us whats wrong by using behaviour, and when you said he stands as if going to pee, but doesnt pee, suggests strongly to me that there may be bladder/kidney infection. Untreated, it can rumble on for months, as this strange stance symptom has. Especially as youve checked for beans/sheath health and all clear on that front.
I hope discussions with your vet on this angle helps.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Just throwing this out into the forum in the hopes someone has come across this before.

12yo gelding, very well in himself, eating/drinking/droppings/urinating all normal and fine.

I keep catching him standing very camped out as if he is going to urinate, he will stay there for maybe 30 seconds then just walk off and go back to normal, doesn’t look to be straining and doesn’t drop. He can also occasionally get a bit tail swishy and stampy and drop his penis but this isn’t as often and may be unrelated. I initially thought he was colicing and we had the emergency vet but now we really don’t think this is the case.

He has had his sheath looked at under sedation and the vet could find nothing, all clean and normal no swelling, no beans, nothing, have taken a swab that came back normal but he just doesn’t strike me as itchy and irritated (which he is in the summer with his sheath). I am going to get a urine sample just to check.

Had bloods run and the only thing that was thrown up was raised livery enzymes, so they came back and ran a full liver panel on both of my horses as they have lived together and eaten the same forage etc. Just got results back and they both have very similar slightly elevated AST and bile acids, plasma fib is within normal range. They are now on a liver tonic to retest in a month.

Vet said this is likely showing a historical cause either viral or mycotoxins from forage, the yard they were on previously to November kept getting awful mouldy hay so I’m assuming/hoping this is the cause. They have both been through a lot of stress and 2 yard moves in a short space of time, the latest one being 3 weeks ago.

I also strongly query if this is new behaviour or it just hasn’t been noted as they were on full livery up until 3 weeks ago and it’s so brief and non-distressed you wouldn’t really notice it if you weren’t paying attention. I do recall a fellow livery telling me he was standing camped out in the autumn but I assumed that was related to his sore feet at the time. Just a bit of a puzzle I’m trying to piece together. Sorry it’s a bit disjointed there are many parts to it.

I have shown the video of the behaviour to my physio and she did query if he’s trying to relieve some sort of musculoskeletal/postural discomfort as he has ongoing issues with hoof balance and tension. Happy to PM anyone the video don’t really want to post him on an open forum.

Just going on oner of my liveries who does similar and he had maggots in his sheath. When was sheath last cleaned?

 

[ester]

I too would treat what you have as it is a known symptom.

I think the stress can be what makes it come out of the woodwork. When I moved my oldie back ‘home’ from livery a couple of weeks later he had bad photosensivity and raised enzymes. Always had home grown forage, nothing in fields in either location, other horse was ok but had been at ‘home’ forever - so at least we knew home fields likely ok.

Had a very gradual improvement in bloods and though we did keep him on milk thistle he was on bute the last 2 years of his life (approx 2 years post liver flare) so he didn’t have any long term damage

 

[ester]

Just going on oner of my liveries who does similar and he had maggots in his sheath. When was sheath last cleaned?

She said it’s been checked under sedation

 

[shortstuff99]

I would also look into iron levels. Horses are prone to high iron which causes a lot of liver issues.

 

[I'm Dun]

It doesnt sound that likely given hes 12, but thats one of the symptoms of PSSM. I'd spent the £30 odd quid and rule it out just in case, esp as youve got raised AST as well.

 

[Irishcob6]

A friend’s horse used to do this when he had raised liver enzymes - only symptom he showed despite having the highest liver readings on the whole yard! Once he had completed the liver treatment and bloods were back to normal this weird behaviour stopped. I saw him do it out hacking, go into the full camped out position looking like he was going to wee but yet never did.

 

[AWinter]

It doesnt sound that likely given hes 12, but thats one of the symptoms of PSSM. I'd spent the £30 odd quid and rule it out just in case, esp as youve got raised AST as well.

It is definitely on my radar but as my other horse has exactly the same raised AST I’m going to treat the liver first and see where we’re at. I don’t want to change too many things at once. Thanks.

A friend’s horse used to do this when he had raised liver enzymes - only symptom he showed despite having the highest liver readings on the whole yard! Once he had completed the liver treatment and bloods were back to normal this weird behaviour stopped. I saw him do it out hacking, go into the full camped out position looking like he was going to wee but yet never did.

Really interesting thanks

 

[Marigold4]

Mine did this when he had a virus. It had looked colicky to begin with, though still eating and drinking pretty normally.

Mine also did this when he had a virus. Have you taken his temperature?

 

[santas_spotty_pony]

Not much help but a pony I know that used to do this turned out to have a cancerous tumour but doesn’t sound like this is the case with yours thank goodness.

 

[AWinter]

Just an update on this horse. He’s having an abdominal and trans-rectal ultrasound next week to see if we can at least start ruling some things out.

He’s definitely quiet in himself although eating/drinking fine, and not quiet in a way that you’d notice if you didn’t know him.

I’ve had more ideas from people who’s horses presented in this way, one with an enlarged spleen and another with a small impaction that presented with normal eating and droppings but found delayed stomach emptying on a gastroscope.

Looking into testing for PSSM and possibly scoping depending on the ultrasound findings.

Diagnostics are so hard when you don’t have much to go on.

 

[Melody Grey]

Just an update on this horse. He’s having an abdominal and trans-rectal ultrasound next week to see if we can at least start ruling some things out.

He’s definitely quiet in himself although eating/drinking fine, and not quiet in a way that you’d notice if you didn’t know him.

I’ve had more ideas from people who’s horses presented in this way, one with an enlarged spleen and another with a small impaction that presented with normal eating and droppings but found delayed stomach emptying on a gastroscope.

Looking into testing for PSSM and possibly scoping depending on the ultrasound findings.

Diagnostics are so hard when you don’t have much to go on.

I’m guessing you’ve had a blood test and tested urine already? Kidney stones were considered a possibility with mine. Just thinking of least invasive/ expensive options first, though ultrasound is fairly cheap.

 

[AWinter]

Update.

Ultrasound this morning found sludge in his bladder, also managed to grab a urine sample which looked to have a lot of sludge in. Vet not really seen it before and said she needs to read up on it but seemed to think treatment would be surgical Any experiences welcome.

 

[Melody Grey]

Update.

Ultrasound this morning found sludge in his bladder, also managed to grab a urine sample which looked to have a lot of sludge in. Vet not really seen it before and said she needs to read up on it but seemed to think treatment would be surgical Any experiences welcome.

I’ve not heard of this before, but would question if it can be diluted/ broken down and drained out via catheter? I’d be keen to consider potential non- surgical routes first!

 

[AWinter]

I’ve not heard of this before, but would question if it can be diluted/ broken down and drained out via catheter? I’d be keen to consider potential non- surgical routes first!

I have done a mad research/Google/call experienced professionals afternoon and come to the conclusion we are going to treat change a few things and wait and see. Putting him on a kidney tonic from trinity and we are in the middle of dramatically changing his hoof balance.

Interestingly found this which really fits with my horse as he’s had awful postural issues and NPA in his feet. Have discussed with vet and she’s happy to wait then retest the urine in a month and see where we’re at, as he is functional and not in continent I’m hoping we’ve caught it early.