Stubborn pony napping badly for my daughter

I would be concentrating on building up your daughters confidence again by hacking her out with another horse on a regular basis rather than doing school work for a while. If your horse cannot hack at the moment maybe you can borrow one to accompany her. Ponies often get quickly sickened of school work and if she is taking advantage of your daughter in the school I would take the pressure of your daughter for a while and just let her hack out and maybe get her instructor or similar person to do some school work with the pony instead. She could then have lessons with the person so they can work on the problems together. I do agree with other people though who have said that the pony may just be too big and strong for your daughter; a Welsh Cob is a considerable amount of horse for a small person.
 
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How big is the pony? For a 10 year old, when you said a Welshie, I though you meant an A or B, maybe a C. But if it is a Welsh D, the chances are that this is far too much for your daughter. They are renowned for being quirky and having a quirky one myself, there's no way a 10 year old would be able to ride him no matter how good a rider they are.
 
debserofe said:
Sounds like you have a smart little pony who has got a little arena sour and knows how to get a rest - you could try letting the pony go to the gate, side, pony, person, etc., and then when it gets there start moving its feet in circles, working on transitions, leg yield, back up, etc., just keep its feet moving - when the pony moves away, take the pressure off and let the pony rest when it offers to move away (initially it might happen by mistake). The distance should increase to the point where you should find the pony moves away on request, without protest or having to resort to hitting with a stick - on said note, I would take away the stick and get your instructor to help you with getting the pony off the leg, a stick should be used as a schooling aid not as a punishment - every time your daughter turns her hand to use the stick, it upsets her balance, the pony's balance and the bond! Good luck and hope your lovely pony will soon return so that your daughter is soon enjoying the ridden work again.
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great ideas, thanks debserofe.
 
Hi Gloi, good idea thanks. Gloi and Muckypony - in hindsight yes a Welsh D is a lot for her to take on, but whilst they are still having some successes we will persevere. We went XC training the other day - although the instructor had pony following me on my horse a lot of the time, she also had her do a couple of things herself which went ok. Pony Club ladies think the pony is cracking and at least looks after her rider and has a good bond with her on the ground. I do think we have something to work with here. Also of course my daughter is bonded with the pony now (despite her naughtiness I do believe the pony is fond of my daughter). With the first pony we had on loan - they were well matched for size but he had underlying problems that caused him to be unsuitable. With this one - we took (perhaps misguided) advice that the pony would be suitable despite her larger size. Changing ponies again would be a huge wrench, and given her stubborn nature I doubt would be easy to sell (at least to a decent home). Bearing in mind my daughter is a chunkier 10 year old, but even so I do realise the pony is a bit large for her. Yet it's more about the nature than the size in my opinion - my 15.2hh horse is an absolute gent for my daughter (he is 17 though) and she can canter him round the school and jump him no problem... Obviously it's a massive disappointment that L's progress is being blocked by the pony. As I said I am wondering if we need to try a different pony but my daughter is determined to make it work with this pony (who can be absolutely cracking some of the time for her, even now).

I had a lady on FB offer her services for behavioural work (she messaged me based on something I said in passing on a horse group). It turned out she was quite far and I knew nothing about her credentials. So I said no. Also can be problematic with the different approaches confusing my daughter and the pony (instructor feels the pony needs a firm assertive hand, natural horsemanship people will often feel the reverse??). So I am keen to seek help and support (before moving on to a new pony) - but how should I do that? More intensive lessons with existing instructor? Or find someone very different in their approach? We are very keen to put the effort in here.
 
I wonder if it's worth mentioning too - some of the things she used to be naughty at she is now very good. Like standing still for my daughter to mount. Used to take several attempts - now she just does it. She is also very fond of praise and attention.
 
It really won't hurt your pony if you get on board and school her/give her a reminder. My trainer rides my horse for me quite regularly and it really helps. He isn't the most confident but doing it this way saw his education come on leaps and bounds. It also has really helped how I ride him. As others said, get your basic checks out of the way. Make a note of how your pony behaved after having time off for next year. Up the work (lunging, long reining) and yes, do ride the pony as well. Once pain has been ruled out, the best behaviour improvement I have ever seen is a proper work regime. Really sounds a lot like time off, bored pony, possibly didn't fit her tack so tried her luck. My boy will change shape quickly and when he went from proper work to 2 weeks walking in hand due to a knock...I had to pad out his saddle when I rode again. That is how quickly he had lost sufficient top line and specifically muscle around his wither.
 
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3Beasties said:
Another tip which I use with my nappy horse (not a confidence issue!) is if she won't go forward when I ask I turn her tightly in a circle repeatedly until she will go forward (usually only have to turn her a couple of times!). If you are sure there are no physical problems this might be worth trying (although it may not be a suitable exercise for your daughter!).
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3B we did this with our pony when he started testing my daughter ( she was only 12 at the time with a sharp NF) he was not very confident, but he had also started to do half rears as well, and she was losing her confidence quickly - this method was very very effective. He had stopped napping within a week , and later if he considered not going forward she would only need to turn him once and he would go forwards again - very good strategy to know about. (works for rearing too)

Also what about pony club. Is she's not a member she could join and they would help her (and you)
 
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Luci07 - good reminder - I'll actually give our excellent saddle fitter a call and get this ruled out. She has lost weight over the winter (but nowhere near underweight as she lives on fresh air!). Good point about work regime too - we need to get up there more often. Now we have lighter evenings this is getting easier.

Smurf's Gran - great! Glad it worked for you. With the first pony we had, once he started rearing we decided to give up - was too afraid of him toppling backwards and squashing Laura. But that was the last in a long line of problems and I truly believe that despite all his checks saying he was good to ride, he had some underlying stiffness issues (never tracked up properly). He came wearing this awful plastic saddle that was way too narrow on his spine so this probably caused the damage. Doubt that little pony would ever want to work again :( I really hope he has been given an early retirement but his owner seemed to take the huff with us (whenever we messaged her to ask her how he is, it was one word replies). I am pretty sure she was planning to put him out to another child (but is from a different part of Scotland so will never really know). Shame as we were fond of him and would have liked to hear how he was.
 
So today - once my little boy is dressed - we're off to the ponies. I'm going to not ride today, but instead be on the ground observing Laura. When these issues hit before, Laura did a lot of ground work. Seemed to work in earning pony's respect. So we'll do that again. Planning to do the friendly game from Parelli this morning. Maybe some of the Porcupine game too. Then Laura will ride her. Shall I be ready to ride her too? I am worried that Laura might actually be a better rider than me (but obviously my aids will be stronger). If she bucks I may come off ;) Laura has way the better seat for that! But she hasn't been bucking for a long time.

In the school we'll do some flatwork and poles, maybe a couple of jumps (the pony strangely prefers jumping to flatwork).

Will take some pictures, although am sure some people will say the pony is too big - but we've established that she's on the big side :) Maybe a video and you can see how they are doing.

thanks to everyone and sorry if I have come across as defensive, I've used forums before and I know some people can be more frank than others, doesn't stop me being a softie ;)
 
book_lover said:
So today - once my little boy is dressed - we're off to the ponies. I'm going to not ride today, but instead be on the ground observing Laura. When these issues hit before, Laura did a lot of ground work. Seemed to work in earning pony's respect. So we'll do that again. Planning to do the friendly game from Parelli this morning. Maybe some of the Porcupine game too. Then Laura will ride her. Shall I be ready to ride her too? I am worried that Laura might actually be a better rider than me (but obviously my aids will be stronger). If she bucks I may come off ;) Laura has way the better seat for that! But she hasn't been bucking for a long time.

In the school we'll do some flatwork and poles, maybe a couple of jumps (the pony strangely prefers jumping to flatwork).

Will take some pictures, although am sure some people will say the pony is too big - but we've established that she's on the big side :) Maybe a video and you can see how they are doing.

thanks to everyone and sorry if I have come across as defensive, I've used forums before and I know some people can be more frank than others, doesn't stop me being a softie ;)
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I have not read all the advice, but ponies are like children, they need to know the boundaries, they will not be bribed however, and will not understand reasoned argument or "threats", get on and go is what they need to understand, a good rider will make a good horse and vice versa.
Don't let a pony get fat, they can get laminitis, which is a painful disease and can recur.
 
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thanks Bonkers2, yes and let's bear in mind she is 8, and comes across as a young 8 - so she is essentially a child (or worse, a teenager!). Thanks, we're going to be super strict with her this year and the grass, as we've seen how easily she blows up.
 
And certainly yes she is bonded with certain of the other horses, if she sees them she becomes distracted and may go from behaving very nicely to playing up.
 
Gosh, a Welsh D is a lot of pony for a child. I started reading because I've recently experienced similar issues with a pony stopping at me/the gate/the cat while in the school, but this was a Welsh A with a tall 8 year-old child. I resolved the problem with a combination of some of the things suggested in this thread: lots of hacking out to build confidence, long-reining without a rider so that the pony got used to going forward in the school and being obedient and not stopping unless asked, lunging and free schooling the pony with lots of transitions using voice commands so that he got used to focusing on instructions and going away from me rather than being near me and stopping. Then I put the rider back on and helped from the ground with my voice commands while she used her aids. My voice backed up her aids (child cannot replicate my voice commands effectively), and now the pony listens to the aids and is going sweetly.

Welshies are always strong-willed and wily and get bored easily. We find it much easier to keep the pony focused and forward with lots of transitions and pole work so that he is too busy to think about ambling over to the gate or stopping at me.
 
thanks Linzy, some good ideas here. Do you think it a good (or bad) idea to lunge first in the school before L rides?
 
As the owner of a small D who is pretty saintly he'd start to push boundaries on a youngster and a lot of pony for an 8yo. His previous owner got him at 12 and looked diddy. I know they are clever but I do think someone else rideing or long reining would help. ATM he's worked out he can do it every time if he could at least only do it half the time it would help! Better schooling/exercise being put on is never a bad idea. Does he set his neck when napping?
 
book_lover said:
thanks Linzy, some good ideas here. Do you think it a good (or bad) idea to lunge first in the school before L rides?
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I would probably not ride in the school for now. Just stop doing the thing where she has an opportunity to nap. Just lunge/long-rein/free school, so that the school is a place where she HAS to go forwards, and do lots of hacking out. I did a couple of weeks of working the pony every day for just 15 minutes either lunge/long-rein/free school, and never putting the rider on at all. Keep it short and frequent and fun. The next time I put the rider on, the pony went round like clockwork and had forgotten all about napping or stopping. Within a couple of sessions with the rider, he tried it on again, I stepped forwards and used my voice and he went forwards. I think, in my experience, just doing the lunge before you ride thing, won't be an instant fix and may even reinforce the boredom, it's more a case of using lunging instead of riding in the school in order to break the cycle and get the pony thinking forwards and not napping. One thing that might help if you can get the pony out of the napping on the lunge, is then for the rider to be on the pony on the lunge, as an interim step. This doesn't mean that Laura is in any way not capable, it is a training method for the pony.
 
Ooh, just thought of another thing that helped with a very idle Section C and my other niece. The pony used to take her to the gate all the time, so I put a diamond of poles on the floor in the centre of the arena and called it 'the magic box'. She had to mount inside the box, do transitions through the box, so doing lots of figures of 8 with trot-walk-trot through the magic box, walk-halt-walk, etc, and if the pony tried ambling off with her we'd do small turns in and out of the box (a bit like the circling thing mentioned above), and at the end of the session - and this was key - she would dismount inside the box and give the pony lots of praise and a treat. It didn't take him long to learn that the gate was not the way to the end of the session, but the magic box might yield a treat or signal the end. These Welshies - it's a constant game of wits!!!
 
ester said:
As the owner of a small D who is pretty saintly he'd start to push boundaries on a youngster and a lot of pony for an 8yo. His previous owner got him at 12 and looked diddy. I know they are clever but I do think someone else rideing or long reining would help. ATM he's worked out he can do it every time if he could at least only do it half the time it would help! Better schooling/exercise being put on is never a bad idea. Does he set his neck when napping?
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Hi Ester, yes a bit with the neck, shoulder shuffles and whips tail. When more naughty it is bucking. Actually today went really well until we started canter work - although from the start she was highly strung and forward. So actually we had no issues with going forward until when they were doing canter over poles, then Becky started to doing rocking horse bucks once over poles and at end of school. We tried the tight circles as rec'd by a few people here. Works quite well in getting her moving forward again actually. But each time she cantered she did rocking horse bucks. Laura has such an amazing seat and was just pushing her through it. But I did wonder why - so I have messaged the saddle fitter to ask when she can come to check the fit. She's in Thailand on a long holiday at the mo though...

I have noticed Becky being more wired/forward and more spooky and silly when in the school on her own. Separation from the herd? Better behaved when there's other ponies but then can nap to them...
 
ester said:
As the owner of a small D who is pretty saintly he'd start to push boundaries on a youngster and a lot of pony for an 8yo. His previous owner got him at 12 and looked diddy. I know they are clever but I do think someone else rideing or long reining would help. ATM he's worked out he can do it every time if he could at least only do it half the time it would help! Better schooling/exercise being put on is never a bad idea. Does he set his neck when napping?
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I do wonder whether my schooling would be "better" though.... certainly wouldn't have the seat that Laura has!
 
LinzyD said:
I would probably not ride in the school for now. Just stop doing the thing where she has an opportunity to nap. Just lunge/long-rein/free school, so that the school is a place where she HAS to go forwards, and do lots of hacking out. I did a couple of weeks of working the pony every day for just 15 minutes either lunge/long-rein/free school, and never putting the rider on at all. Keep it short and frequent and fun. The next time I put the rider on, the pony went round like clockwork and had forgotten all about napping or stopping. Within a couple of sessions with the rider, he tried it on again, I stepped forwards and used my voice and he went forwards. I think, in my experience, just doing the lunge before you ride thing, won't be an instant fix and may even reinforce the boredom, it's more a case of using lunging instead of riding in the school in order to break the cycle and get the pony thinking forwards and not napping. One thing that might help if you can get the pony out of the napping on the lunge, is then for the rider to be on the pony on the lunge, as an interim step. This doesn't mean that Laura is in any way not capable, it is a training method for the pony.
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OK good thinking. We did today (hadn't seen this). Went well until canter work (see my reply above). So tomorrow we can hack, then Monday - hack. Rest of week I can do some lunge or long reining on way to work. Errr - will need to learn how to long rein though. Then Friday hack again - and so on for a couple of weeks?
 
LinzyD said:
Ooh, just thought of another thing that helped with a very idle Section C and my other niece. The pony used to take her to the gate all the time, so I put a diamond of poles on the floor in the centre of the arena and called it 'the magic box'. She had to mount inside the box, do transitions through the box, so doing lots of figures of 8 with trot-walk-trot through the magic box, walk-halt-walk, etc, and if the pony tried ambling off with her we'd do small turns in and out of the box (a bit like the circling thing mentioned above), and at the end of the session - and this was key - she would dismount inside the box and give the pony lots of praise and a treat. It didn't take him long to learn that the gate was not the way to the end of the session, but the magic box might yield a treat or signal the end. These Welshies - it's a constant game of wits!!!
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Great idea!

Also, if we'd had jumps up in the school today she may have been better - she seems to prefer those, but she needs to be able to work without jumping!
 
More work, less feed, more lessons, in any order you think appropriate, lungeing is OK if you know how to do it, ie not whizzing round on a string as fast as possible like most people seem to do. Lungeing is an skill, though most people have no idea about that.................!!!!
 
Bonkers2 said:
More work, less feed, more lessons, in any order you think appropriate, lungeing is OK if you know how to do it, ie not whizzing round on a string as fast as possible like most people seem to do. Lungeing is an skill, though most people have no idea about that.................!!!!
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Great thanks Bonkers. At the moment we don't give a hard feed. She just gets a lick after work. ONE treat on going back in the field (any more and she loses her manners). At the mo the sweet grass is coming thick and fast so she's prob full of sugar. We need to tape her off soon I think. Will get onto instructor and get more lessons scheduled - once a month just not enough. Lungeing - I'm ok at it, BUT seem to struggle to slow her down. I know how I should be doing it (I think) - but she just wants to zoom around.
 
get someone to teach you how to long rein and to lunge with two reins. I really think it would be invaluable for your to be able to do this and will reinforce any voice cues she has ;)

I just wondered whether it was case of horse fixing neck and dragging rider back in one direction and rider not being strong enough to keep the horse straight in which case I might ask if you were happy with the current bitting arrangement or whether something else for a bit might help make the point. If you aren't good enough I'd get a small pro to ride her once a week or so for a bit.

I think I would actually see if you can have someone but that will teach daughter but also school pony. If you could manage for pony to be schooled once a week, daughter to have a lesson once a week and you to long rein/lunge once a week and hack the rest of the time you might resolve it pretty quickly. I would err on the side of not having daughter ride in school without instructor for a little bit just to start producing good habits again.

and what lick? :p
 
Hi Ester, ok some good ideas here. I'm currently 12 and a half stone (and falling!) lost a stone since Christmas. Still wonder if she'd buckle under the weight of me though ;)

OK no school riding for a bit then except lessons. Will contact instructor and ask if she can do 1 hour private lessons. Would it work to have her school the pony for 30 minutes then have Laura being taught for 30? Would that maybe work? Or better to have two individual visits? (I might struggle financially with that one though).

Lick - the minty one (can't remember brand). We went from small feeds to lick, do you think it's a bad idea? People seem divided on this one.
 
She's a substantial welsh cob, she won't buckle. It's not like you are going to be taking her hunting all day. Mind you , she'd probably enjoy that.
 
Licks can be full of sugar.
I am struggling with the combination of a 10yr old rider and a green Welsh D. ( I love Welshies, and have had a few.) I would never have considered one for my daughter when she was 10. I honestly think at that age, however talented your little jockey may be, a pony who instils confidence is the way forward.
I think stronger bits etc can cause problems in a childs hands and I see no benefit in "games" except to the novice owner who isn't managing to ride through problems, sorry. Why not find an older rider to teach your girl her job, and look for a pony your child can have fun with. Take the pressure off both of you. : )
 
hi Ozpoz, I think I agree re the bit, as Laura has fairly quiet hands but is still a child... we have a flash on and I have been wondering about taking that off.

I agree it's not the best match, in hindsight I wish I had held out for a smaller pony - but we aren't flush enough to keep this pony and buy a third. We've put a lot of work into this pony and while ever we're making progress we will persevere. If progress stops then we will have to reconsider. But buying a third pony (I have a horse too) is not an option financially and I doubt I could afford the perfect pony - Becky was £1200 and I wonder whether I could even ask that whilst she is being unwilling. So I doubt we could find the £3k for a perfect schoolmaster type.
 
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